Troop/Platoon Tactical Question

[Tango29]

Hi,

In the Anti-Frustration Kit, under "Tactics," I read the following:
"When moving through the battlezone, try to leapfrog your tanks so that one is sitting still covering while another moves. A great feeling of brotherhood will well up inside you the first time one of your overwatching tanks kills a vehicle that was about to fire on you. The same tactic can be applied by two human players, although unfortunately the common practice is to give each player a distinct corridor, making cooperation difficult."
I could not agree more with the mutual support concept, but I'm wondering about the highlighted section, especially the "distinct corridor" portion. I would think that providing overwatch between troops/platoons would be a key element of tactical play. Now, you should know that I am the newest of the new with SB (my copy of SB Pro PE arrives tomorrow), but I do have fair (if slightly dated) experience with tank and reconnaissance operations. It may be that I have to "get in the game" to see just how it works. But I thought that I'd ask now, in order to start gathering sim information. TIA for any insight.

Cheers,

[Kingtiger]

Hi,

In the Anti-Frustration Kit, under "Tactics," I read the following:
"When moving through the battlezone, try to leapfrog your tanks so that one is sitting still covering while another moves. A great feeling of brotherhood will well up inside you the first time one of your overwatching tanks kills a vehicle that was about to fire on you. The same tactic can be applied by two human players, although unfortunately the common practice is to give each player a distinct corridor, making cooperation difficult."
I could not agree more with the mutual support concept, but I'm wondering about the highlighted section, especially the "distinct corridor" portion. I would think that providing overwatch between troops/platoons would be a key element of tactical play. Now, you should know that I am the newest of the new with SB (my copy of SB Pro PE arrives tomorrow), but I do have fair (if slightly dated) experience with tank and reconnaissance operations. It may be that I have to "get in the game" to see just how it works. But I thought that I'd ask now, in order to start gathering sim information. TIA for any insight.

Cheers,

Unfortunly, it is as its written... but that differense from who plays... but an average plan is like this" you go there and I go here" and press "go" and no cooperation between those, so one can be far ahead with exposed flank and the other one can be far behind still engaging heavy resistance.

But then again there are some players who work close together with overwatch and covering fire and so on. so Dont take that sentence to hard. Just try MP around and see who you prefer to play with/under.

/KT

[RecceDG]

Not to mention that in Real Life there is usually a Squadron Commander or Battle Captain there to ensure that Troop Leaders don't take their troops and scamper off into the distance....

DG

[Tango29]

DG,

Yes, that's what I'm getting at. I've done the "Real Life" thing as you describe, but I'm not too clear just yet how that experience translates into SB command and control. So I'll just learn the game, dive into the deep end, grab a tank to start with, and try to remember the format for the crew commander's appreciation...! :)

Thanks for your input: much appreciated.

Cheers,

[9erRed]

Greetings Tango29,

Ref your refreshing the Crew Commanders memory.


Crew Commanders Appreaciation

a. Where is my next position?
b. Where is the Enemy likely to be?
c. What is my route to my next position/Obsticacles (fwd, flank and rear)
d. What is my action if engaged (near, middle, far)?


Next step up...


Patrol Commanders Appreciation

1. Where is my patrol and other friendly patrols?

2. Where is my patrol and other friendly patrols moving to and are there any manoeuvre restrictions that can influence my move?

3. Where is the Enemy? (confirmed and possible locations)

4. Has my plan changed?


And as for what you can remember from real life use, same applies here in this Sim. Check your map before you move to locate your next likely position and if you observed or identified it from your current location all the better. If your not laying a route line on the map then you'll have to pay strict attention to where your vehicle or patrol physically moves along, keeping in mind that you should allow for formation movement changes along the route (patrol size) depending on the terrain type and lay of the land.
Defiles and gaps should be treated same as in real life, warning, security, futher actions. (if your in a player filled troop or patrol)
Advising fellow vehicles commanders that you are moving into their flank or front area is always a good thing and will reduce or stop "fraticides" for lack of "not knowing who that was you just shot at"

Just keeping your edge up.

Later ..... 9erRed

[RecceDG]

Given that the man's callsign is 29 (B Sqn Cmdr) and his avatar is a Cdn Centurion, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he knows what a crew commander's appreciation looks like.

29, the biggest problem with multiplayer in-game tactics is that most people wind up controlling Tp-sized units (or multiple Tps) and so two players controlling callsigns within the same Tp is relatively rare. There aren't many people with experience working side by each in the same Tp, so you don't see as much callsign mutual support as you might want.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means that it is hard to find a fireteam partner who knows what overwatch is and how to do it properly.

DG

[Tango29]

9erRed and RecceDG,

Right, first lesson learned: don't use offhand humour when you don't know your audience!<G> I should have left that CC appreciation comment out!

9erRed, thanks for your input. I pretty much had the CCA and PCA down, but I'm very glad for the confirmation. Plus which, your information on Real Life and SB was just what I'm looking for. I'm sure it will all come back with a rush when I get into the game.:thumbup:

RecceDG, your input is also very useful to me. I'll have to get into scenarios with other players and see how it all unfolds. I hope to be "value-added," but I don't want to rely on my somewhat dated experience (Centurions, Meaford and Gagetown, 1960's and '70's) only to find that it doesn't work all that well in the simulation for whatever reason.:thumbup:

Thanks again, both! I'm looking forward to getting involved.

Cheers!

[HotTom]

Tango 29,

Well, the technology changes and the doctrine has moved from the Cold War and the Fulda Gap to counterinsurgency and counterterrorism in places of dubious strategic value (I refuse to use that horse puckey "Fourth Generation" term :) ) but the concepts of using proper leadership have not.

Shoot. Move. Communicate. That's it. OCOKA and METT-T (the US acronyms, you Commonwealth types have your own terminology but it's the same stuff) never change. They are constants in both planning and execution.

This is quite a good training aide for crew member skills there are some members here who obviously are experienced small unit leaders.

9erRed is an excellent example, the one mission I was in that he led was excellent but it was a platoon -- the largest size any SB mission should be -- and all the players knew what they were doing. That's the exception, not the rule.

Where it kind of falls apart is when it comes to what we used to term "followership." Some are very good at it and "play the game" very well. Others like to Lone Wolf it and aren't very good team players. There is no fixed chain of command, no training as teams, no SOPs and discipline is sorely lacking among some players.

And, when you consider most of the on-line scenarios are written at US battalion level (what you would call a regiment), well, command and control even in the real military with experienced soldiers, sergeants and officers who train together is very difficult.

When you do it as a "pick-up game" (players just jumping into any slot that looks inviting without any establish doctrine or procedures or training as a unit), sadly, it can be quite a shambles compared to the way an experienced military unit would conduct the same mission (probably why we never see people like RecceDG on Friday nights; he'd be pounding his head into a brick wall at the amateurism. I certainly do).

People like Brun who are willing to jump into the top leadership slots are a major plus but the lack of experience in the mid-level supervisors is evident,

Most players have the shoot and move parts down quite well. A few are excellent snipers.

It's in the communicating that it ll breaks down. Even something as basic as "bounding overwatch" requires knowing how to get on a radio and coordinate your actions. There are no real radio nets and we come from many countries with different radio procedures but there are no common signal operating instructions for SB.

Still, if you take SB for what it is and accept all of its many limitations, it is fun and challenging and the equipment models are as accurate as it gets.

At least, I still show up most Friday nights. And it usually is fun if not always realistic.

On weekends, well, most of the on line players are playing an auto racing sim using the SB server, not SB, which ought to tell you that they are bored with SB. Personally, I think that sucks. I jump into Teamspeak looking for a tank fight on a Saturday and all the regulars are in race cars at a track. Says a lot about the state of the multiplayer community IMO.

I think the ARRC gang has a much better grip on it but it's 1) limited to eight players, so C3 is simpler and 2) they have real organization and real doctrine and, 3)it's all Europeans so those of us in the Western Hemisphere aren't welcome anyway :)

Welcome, Tango. I think you will find, as I did, that initially it is a very impressive sim designed for single tank crews and three- or four-tank platoons. If you don't expect too much of it beyond that, it can be very rewarding.

HT

[RecceDG]

(probably why we never see people like RecceDG on Friday nights; he'd be pounding his head into a brick wall at the amateurism. I certainly do).

Actually, the reason why you rarely see RecceDG on Friday nights is that he's usually up to his armpits in staffwork, especially during the Feb-June exercise season.

I enjoy the few times when I do get to play; the First Clash session I played Bde Commander on was a lot of fun and a real education.

My hope is that once I get clear of this next big exercise that I'll have time to devote to scenario design and maybe some online stuff.

Lack of professionalism.... isn't that big of a deal, really. You can't do this job without developing patience and instructor skills along the way.

29, the big thing that I think you'll need to adjust to is that with thermals, lasers, and ballistic computers that can shoot on the move, engagements are very much more deadly and happen a LOT quicker than I expect was true in the Centurion days. A good gunner can get a shot off at a moving target within a couple of seconds of being placed on, and there's a very good chance of a first round hit.

I find this magnifies the effectiveness of "tank Quakers" who are excellent gunners but are perhaps weaker in tactics, relative to old farts who are strong on tactics but weaker in pure twitch reflex.

My advice is to spend a lot of time on the range and in Instant Action building up the gunnery and reaction and situational awareness skills - then come on in and give these guys some old skool beatdown. :)

DG

[Tango29]

Gentlemen, All,

Thank you for taking the time to explain some of the background to SB. I can see that my background will help somewhat: beyond that, it's "get into the game, keep the basics in mind, and enjoy!"

I've got SB on my system, upgrade versions installed, joystick connected, and three gunnery tutorials done. Quaintly, I tried some old 105 techniques from "my era," and they seemed to work rather well. Mind you, the targets were (a) stationary for the most part, and (b) not shooting back! It'll be a while before I get to the "Friday Night" level, but progress is being made.

Thanks again for all of your help!:@!2:

Cheers,

[12Alfa]

Gentlemen, All,

Thanks again for all of your help!:@!2:

Cheers,
T 29, would you be from eastern Canada?