Tank destroyed

[BlackDeath]

A stupid question: :roll: :oops:

When a tank is destroyed in Steel Beasts, does it meant that all crewmembers have been killed, or only that tank is out of action?

:cvcsalute:

~BD~

[Hell_Hound]

In the case of an M1A1, I'd be astonished if all the crew were killed. In Iraq they've taken hits even from tank-annihilating weapons like Hellfire missiles, and not even had 50% crew fatalities.

If a tank is "silent killed", with no external evidence of damage except for the drooping gun, the crew may have spall injuries or burns (or have actually been hit by the penetrator) or they may be fine.

If a dead tank is smoking, the crew are almost certainly burned or dying from fume inhalation, and their survival depends on whether they're physically sound enough to evacuate the tank.

If a dead tank is flaming, the crew are roasting alive and dying from fume inhalation, probably wounded from spall (since the turret is torn up so badly that the fire-suppression systems aren't effective) and their survival depends on them evacuating the tank - very quickly.

If a dead tank's turret blows off, I would assume the turret crew are cremated instantly. I don't know if it would be possible for the driver to survive such an explosion, but from pictures I've seen of catastrophic kills in Desert Storm I think it would take a miracle.

[BlackDeath]

Have you seen the Javelin test movie? How to survive to this??? The tank (a T-72 isnt it?) was totally destroyed, crewmembers might have all being killed! By the way, is a modern western tank able to resist to Javelin missile???

~BD~

[OddBall]

Have you seen the Javelin test movie? How to survive to this??? The tank (a T-72 isnt it?) was totally destroyed, crewmembers might have all being killed! By the way, is a modern western tank able to resist to Javelin missile???


That T-72 had about 1,000,000,000kg of TNT inside. Top-attack missiles can be effective, but not THAT effective. So in other words, that video is a hoax.

[Ssnake]

A stupid question: :roll: :oops:

When a tank is destroyed in Steel Beasts, does it meant that all crewmembers have been killed, or only that tank is out of action?
A stupid answer: It is what you imagine it is. The question actually is outside the model boundaries. ;)
We decided no to calculate beyond the state that we defined as a "vehicle kill". In reality, at least some crew members have a chance bigger than 50% to bail from a "killed" vehicle (one that has been put out of combat action). But we did not model the bailing process or a calculation who of the crew will actually make it, and in what conditions.

Similarly, we don't calculate infantry casualties (whether they're dead or just wounded, and whether the field medics manage to keep them alive, and the process of evacuation to the nearest field hospital etc.)

Some elements simply aren#t part of our model, so you're free to speculate. :)

[skidmark]

that video isnt a hoax, and yes it would do the same to the m-1, ive seen the new javlin in action, it is the badest shoulder fired tank killer out. luckly we are the only ones to have it. to this date anyway.

[dejawolf]

you gotta pack quite a huge amount of explosive into a missile to make it go off like that.
and then it would simply not be an effective penetrator.
that is, if the javelin isn't an oversized HESH round, that blows giant chunks of metal off the armour.

[JayMan]

Similarly, we don't calculate infantry casualties (whether they're dead or just wounded, and whether the field medics manage to keep them alive, and the process of evacuation to the nearest field hospital etc.)

Talking about medics, is it effective to have a medic following the troops (like in C&C) or is it just to say "there is a medic " in the scenario ?

[OddBall]

that video isnt a hoax, and yes it would do the same to the m-1, ive seen the new javlin in action, it is the badest shoulder fired tank killer out. luckly we are the only ones to have it. to this date anyway.

Of course it's a hoax, just use your common sense. And europeans have almost identical missile to Javelin in Euro-Spike.

[dejawolf]

hmm, that javelin video has got me puzzled lately, since the tank was equipped with ERA. which COULD be the cause of the huge explosion.
but it's still highly unlikely that the whole goddamn thing ends up in a fireball like that.
they probably tanked it up with gasoline, put a few extra rounds in there (filled the turret)
and crammed some C4 into the empty spaces, as an icing on the cake.

i've seen Milan missiles in action. only a small puff of smoke when they hit.

[Wolfman]

Somebody posted a video of Javelin impact on a different (not loaded with C4 or whatever it was) tank. It looked nothing like the video in question, you probably couldn't even tell that the tank was killed by looking at it from a distance.

Just so its clear, the tank WAS killed, but there weren't any explosives inside to tear it apart like in the other video. Javelin is very effective, but normally does not produce such pyrotechnic effects...

[JayMan]

Is it not suppesed to be KE missile ?

[BlackDeath]

And is Javelin missile effective against moving targets???


Some elements simply aren#t part of our model, so you're free to speculate.


So it means that its possible that ive lost no soldiers... But it can also mean that ive lost lot of soldiers...
I prefer the first solution...

[Ssnake]

Actually you didn't lose ANY soldier at all simply because it's a virtual battle anyway. 8)

[Ssnake]

Talking about medics, is it effective to have a medic following the troops (like in C&C) or is it just to say "there is a medic " in the scenario ?
In SB1, the medics have no effect other than being there. There would never be an immediate effect using medics in SBx simply because with a mission rarely exceeding 90 minutes I reckon the number of incapacitated soldiers going back into action right away would be infinitesimally small.
It could make a difference though if scenarios were linked and casualties would carry over to follow-on missions. And the presence of medics might positively influence morale, should we ever come to model it in a more detailed manner.

[Wolfman]

Is it not suppesed to be KE missile ?

Javelin has a HEAT warhead.

[Ssnake]

Is it not suppesed to be KE missile ?
Maybe you're thinking about Losat - 70kg kinetic energy penetrator at Mach 5. Definitely knocks out any tank - but horrendously expensive and not quite effective at distances under a kilometer.

[hoggydog]

as far as damage done is concerned, it also depends where the tank is hit, as we all know the most heavily armoured part of a tank is the front and as far as what damage a modern tank can take, im not sure all i could find was this

"The performance of the Chobham armour was demonstrated in repeated firings trials on the Challenger 2 turret with modern anti-tank weapons. The result of the trial was that the complete turret survived without penetration and the sighting system allowed the gun to be laid and fired."

This is taken from reports done by the British Army in the Chally2s main trials, as you can see it does'nt mention what weapons were used, but the fact that the main gun (and sights) could still be used should give some idea that some of the crew could survive

[JayMan]

Maybe you're thinking about Losat - 70kg kinetic energy penetrator at Mach 5. Definitely knocks out any tank - but horrendously expensive and not quite effective at distances under a kilometer.

That's the one I was thinking about !!!!!!!!!! Terrible mistake !!!!!!!!

Thanks Keeper of the Holy LIST :mrgreen:

[BlackDeath]

Actually you didn't lose ANY soldier at all simply because it's a virtual battle anyway.

Ive nothing to answear... :x I cant refute this argument....

[BlackDeath]

Definitely knocks out any tank

Is it a good or bad missile guidage?
Because if missile misses it target, it cant destroy the tank...

[BlackDeath]

In the Losat or Javelin video Ive seen, no target are on the move, so its "easy" to hit them...

[Dreadnaught]

Here is some details of what a Javalin can do, I got this from another forum:

23 March 2003 Umm Qasr, Iraq: Fox Company, 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, used a Javelin to “take out” a building where enemy soldiers were taking cover. First shot missed, “went long” or “fell short”(two news reports conflict). Second shot hit its target squarely.

4 April 2003 Baghdad International Airport, Iraq: Bushmaster Company, TF 2-7 IN, reports engaging three T-72s with Javelins. PFC Davis fired first and hit a T-72, resulting in catastrophic destruction of the T-72 and damage to its neighbor. PFC Davis fired a second Javelin at the neighboring T-72 and hit it knocking it out. PFC Jiminez fired the third Javelin at the third T-72 – “his round missed but impacted close enough to damage the tank. The tank limped away …”

6 April 2003 Karbala, Iraq: 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne division, SGT Jason Sypherd and his platoon had a Javelin missile come at them. Must have missed.

6 April 2003 Debeka, Northern Iraq: SF SGT Adamec fired a Javelin at a personnel carrier hitting it and knocking it out. “Javelins fired by other soldiers took out other trucks and tanks.”

18 May 2003 Australian news report: Western desert, Iraq: Trooper X, 1st Australian SAS Regiment, awarded Medal of Gallantry. Trooper X fired two Javelins while standing exposed in the back of a long-range patrol vehicle. The first Javelin hit an Iraqi vehicle disabling it The second Javelin hit another vehicle with “full force.”

22 May 2003 SF 102 reports that the Northern Offensive was started with two Javelin rounds being fired almost simultaneously. Two mud wall and mud roof adobe type buildings ? 20x20 ft were hit and taken out at ranges of 2,600 and 2,700 meters. Gunners reported no problems with these engagements.
22 May 2003 Unknown unit reported hitting and taking out T-55 in defilade at less than 2,000 meters. Gunner reported initially repeatedly trying to lock on to the turret but the track gates would expand or jump to some mountains with a lot of temperature delta well behind the target. Gunner then shifted his position by approximately three meters and reengaged the target. Lock on had no problems and the shot was a successful hit.

22 May 2003 SF 102 A and B Company reported at least eighteen successful enemy armor kills. Ranges from 200 meters to 4,000 meters were reported. Some of these were non-combat shots to permanently disable abandoned armored vehicles. Many of these gunners were unavailable for interviews so details are sketchy.

22 May 2003 SF 103 reported a successful engagement of a moving Toyota pickup with a large caliber weapon mounted in the bed. This vehicle was “obliterated” as one can imagine. Serial numbers of round and launcher unavailable. Launch and impact distances unavailable.

22 May 2003 SF 103 reported two specific successful engagements. An enemy 120 mm mortar was firing on SF troops from an unspecified distance (estimation was 2,100 to 2,400 meters but was never verified). Javelin system was brought up to engage this target. The gunner reports locking on to a bright spot he thought was the mortar position. He successfully locked on and fired but the target acquired was actually an enemy bunker that was an estimated 100 meters behind the mortar position. This bunker was destroyed. The gunner then moved his position laterally and reengaged with a new round. This time the gunner was more selective and could make out the mortar tube and the persons hanging rounds in it. He locked on to the tube and the base of the mortar and was successful. All that was left of this position was the mangled legs of the mortar. Serial numbers of round and launcher unavailable. The second round pencil box flex [on Javelin launch tube] was visible and appeared to be showing “bare copper.” This team also reported that the local Northern fighters were in awe of the capabilities of the Javelin system.

22 May 2003 During a SF insertion by C-130, the troops and seventeen of our rounds came under fire. The pilot could see ZSU 23/4s firing at them. The plane was flying low at two to three hundred feet and then dipped down to fifty feet to avoid the air defense fire. At this point the pilot could then see the enemy firing AK-47s and other small arms fire. The plane took many hits, lost two of its four engines, and had to divert to Turkey for an emergency landing. No one was seriously injured. The rounds all survived as well.

22 May 2003 SF used Javelin Command Launch Unit to spot for aircraft bombing runs and damage assessment afterwards. One SF sergeant reported that the launcher “saved our ass.” His unit used the launcher to spot the enemy as they were moving forward and call in an air strike before the enemy could ambush them.

22 May 2003 SF used Command Launch Unit to adjust incoming friendly artillery fire. Once rounds began to hit the launcher FLIR was used to see through the smoke and fire to adjust fire for maximum effectiveness.

22 June 2003 Marines at Camp Pendleton report Javelin problems. Often Missed reports weapons company commander in 15th MEU. Marine Corps reports “recent criticism doesn't represent the experiences of all Marine units.” “The missiles are too expensive – about $68,500 each – to fire in exercises, so the Marines depended on computer simulations.”


Some more detail on the use of Javelins at Debecka Pass. The unit there came under attack by a platoon of T-55 tanks, two platoons of Iraqi Infantry in MTLBs (tracked carriers) and one platoon of Infantry in trucks. Attack was supported by an 82mm mortar and a 57mm anti-aircraft cannon.

SF Soldiers had never actually fired the Javelin, but had had 10 hours on the simulator.

They fired 19 Javelin missiles, destroyed 18 vehicles and "double-tapped" one vehicle inadverdently.

[BlackDeath]

Cant say more...