Military simulators

[colin]

Malaysian news article from the "The Star Online" about the military trade show and links to various simulation products

http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2004/4/22/itfeature/7782579&sec=itfeature

[Black-6]

We use the FATS simulator. The army plans to have it replace live annual pers wpns qual level 1.... should be interesting since it's broken most of the time or the few people we have trained to use it are tasked away.

When it works - it's pretty cool though. You can put a section (squad) through at a time firing with various wpns: aslt rifle, LMG, Carl Gustav, M-72.

[NEpi]

why is it that much better than having them actually fire?

[Hell_Hound]

Actually firing is a hellish time vampire - between safety briefings, more safety briefings, a couple more safety briefings, ammo declarations and weapon cleaning afterwards, you spend maybe 2-4% of your time actually shooting and the control measures are so intensive that it isn't all that realistic anyway.

At least, that's been my experience with "live-fire".

[NEpi]

forgot already how it is in the "regular" army. now, in reserve, it looks really different.

now for the article, it's very far from encompassing military simulators, even in this narrow arc.

[12Alfa]

Our army is going to hell. First we put scope's on our rifles to cut down on the time spent training people to shoot properly, then the SAT to conserve ammo. Next I would think we will be placing dots on a target and saying how we would if using a real bullet would do this. The Goverement is nickel and dime'ing the army to death.
We go to the rifle range once a year and this is only to qual to the lowest qualifation, and I woun't get into our 76mm ammo allotment.
We are trying to run a army on a shoe string budget and all the while the goverement is sending us to more deployments, using up more of our shrinking funds to carry on with day to day army business.

Shooting is a basic army thing, but hey the goverement and our leaders are out to sim this to save money, but not lives.

Yes I'm bitter!!!!!

[NEpi]

Next I would think we will be placing dots on a target and saying how we would if using a real bullet would do this.

isn't that what this sim all about? :shock:

[JAVEHN]

Actually firing is a hellish time vampire - between safety briefings, more safety briefings, a couple more safety briefings, ammo declarations and weapon cleaning afterwards, you spend maybe 2-4% of your time actually shooting and the control measures are so intensive that it isn't all that realistic anyway.

At least, that's been my experience with "live-fire".

Safety meassures is really pain in the ass . For the real fun , you have the blank bullets training . One of the things i like in the Swedish Army , is the use of "Red bullets" . Ever heard of those ? Very interesting thing .

And anyway , i personally disaprove the use of computerised training aids as a pernament solution . It is very good , but it will not replace the real deal .

[Hell_Hound]

Red bullets = paint balls?

Computer sims are fantastic for teaching certain skills, like training a section commander to give correct fire orders or a Carl Gustav team to load and correct misfires quickly.

For teaching actual gunnery, though, the ones I've seen are next to useless.

[JAVEHN]

Then let's sharp it . I think computers are good for training tactical and command echelon .
And it's pretty useless to teach fighting echelon on computer sims .

Red bullets = paint balls?

No . It is sort of training rounds , with wooden bullet . It's very realistic on the noise making , recoil , and the muzzle "firing" show . Swedish Army using it .

[AlphaSierra]

For basic procedures and drill training simulators is a great and cheap complement to live firing. Is there any army that can afford to let a soldier shot 10-20 live TOW's? With simulators they can "afford" 1000 virtual atgms! But you can not replace all training with simulators. Live firing/Combat exercises are outstanding, when the soldier has accomplished his gunnery training, since this is as close you can get to real combat whitout anyone shoting back.

Regarding safety matters... In the -80's we had a polack as a conscript in the swedish army. When it was time for the first live firing exercise he got very nervous. The platoon leader asked him what was the matter and the polack replied with a question "-Liutenant, how many casualties does the army allow in this exersice?". the liutenant answered him "-None of course! Why are you asking that kind of question?". It turned out that the polack had served in the polish army and that on a standard live firing exercis there was allways someone injured or killed!

The swedish blank are used with a special adapter screwed on the end of the barrel to prevent that shrapnel injures anyone. They are for use in small arms like assaulrifles and smg's with caliber between 5.56, 7.62 and 9 mm. The color is for recognition but we are reworking our color codes for ammunition. Red tips on bullets in Nato = tracers?!

[NEpi]

unfortunately, getting shot at is a very basic term in combat, one that needs to be accomodated to.
for that you need @two-sided@ drills, but then you must not fire.
i'm not sure i can disclose what i already know about simulation and training, academically speaking, but some aspects of warfare have more to gain from simulations than others.

[12Alfa]

Maybe I was not to clear....again, hehehe
As for shooting I don't like them. As for tatical trainers they are the way to go. The cost of fuel, meals, veh maintance, and time vs the sims are great. But the sim trg'ing should be quickly followed by field training IMO.

[Gunfighter]

Maybe I was not to clear....again, hehehe
As for shooting I don't like them. As for tatical trainers they are the way to go. The cost of fuel, meals, veh maintance, and time vs the sims are great. But the sim trg'ing should be quickly followed by field training IMO.

I concur. I finished a gunnery course last Feb. The sight retention of the students were so honed by the simulator, that they were engaging the "stick" part of some Fig11 Man Targets at 1200m. They became so intuned with the L23A1 that after perfecting the "aim at center of visible mass", we decided to go after corners and sides only - with Excellent results!

BTW, it has been reported that there are 175,000 76mm Rounds in the CF inventory. My Unit has argued that it is more cost effective to use them at Gun Camp rather than hire an outside contractor to blow them up.

I, of course, argued that it would be cheaper still if I was to use several HESH to blow up the storage of 175,000 76mm Rounds....

There is enough ammo to do Gun Camps for the next 10 years. (assuming that the Almight Cougar will Last that long)

[12Alfa]

My Regt will burn off some in Aug GF. We are attaching a troop to the grunts, who are conducting coy level live fire stands in Gagetown. I was on one a few years back, 1 hour of shootin, then 23 hrs of nothing, really boring, hope my troop does not get tasked with this. lol

[Gunfighter]

My Regt will burn off some in Aug GF. We are attaching a troop to the grunts, who are conducting coy level live fire stands in Gagetown. I was on one a few years back, 1 hour of shootin, then 23 hrs of nothing, really boring, hope my troop does not get tasked with this. lol

We get to reduce that 175k inventory in August as well. We are doing blocking and counter attacks on a Two Battalion Rotation. (Six Companies, six times). I hope the tempo is manageable, as I and the rest of my troop despise "Sitzkrieg".