Do we need the FFZ ?

[Poker]

Has the FFZ really contributed to the SB website, or is it just a breeding ground for flame wars and hard feelings ?
Does it keep the arguements out of the rest of the forums, or do disagreements spill over from there and pollute the other forums ?
Do you even care ?

[DrDevice]

Being that the FFZ is not really related to SB in any way, I have never bothered to register there. The simple fact to me is that I'm here for news and issues w/ SB, with a sprinkle of real armor, tactics, etc.

The political views I've seen creep into the rest of the site are poorly argued and end up inflammatory and are generally distracting. If the FFZ is much worse, then by all means, drop it/ move it to a home of its own.

[eageleye]

Yes as in any other community we need a place to express our views in other than the everyday SB topics.If you say that since it has nothing to do with SB it should be trashed then trash Ground zero as well.The FFZ is not the problem people who countinue to break the rules while Moderators take no action is.I was booted in short order for far less tham a certain person we all know whom i mean.
So just use the rules and the FFZ is a nice place to voice opinons

[Hell_Hound]

The comparison to Ground Zero doesn't really hold water. GZ doesn't require any significant effort on the part of the SB.com staff, but the FFZ has to be constantly monitored and babysat.

If the area constantly requires time and energy invested in it, then it should constantly have to justify its existence.

[eageleye]

but if you do away with the FFZ the GZ will start getting those post

[Lone*star49]

...

Yes, I belive (overall) it is a viable forum.. as constant changes in the local states along with world events, gives us all a chance to view opinions, read others, and come to better understandings of views seen from different points of view and facts, and commen sence.

I believe without doubts, that the "vast majority" of its users, use proper delievery comments given the new rules in regards to proper language, that do not raise a readers blood levels, and concider the recent past, present, and future debates, exchange diff views and opinions, along with different or agreeing facts, given where one gets his facts, that most understand that facts can be different as night and day, and the purpose is for the reader to gain some insight and possible change of view, or agreement, or enlightenment.. etc., and is a vialbe forum.

And yes, it does keep the arguements out of the regular forums.. IMO

I certainly believe the overall good outwieghts the occasional bad.. IMHO


LS

[Hell_Hound]

but if you do away with the FFZ the GZ will start getting those post

Not a problem; they're simple to deal with in GZ. :)

If you're in a hurry: Click Delete. Click Yes.

If you're feeling verbose: Click Reply. Type "GZ is not for political/religious discussions. Take it somewhere else, gentlemen." Click Submit. Click Lock.

[NEpi]

i think some of the arguments in FFZ are interesting. i really want to know what other people think (i AM working in that field).

on the other hand, if it's too much of a headache to babysit it, then it should go.

[chrisotto]

Some arguments are good - but sometimes, opinions are just too "common-sensy" to deal with. If someone just can excuse himself by saying that whatever he just posted was an opinion - verbal dirrhea arises again. Next thing said will be that you have to expect fire if you fire (why did you fire in the first place?)

[NEpi]

yes, but sometimes it's just a good listening, not a good debate

[Ratseal]

Maybe one in eight or so FFZ threads is of interest - if it goes, I won't miss it, but I am not in a hurry to hasten its end.

[ShotMagnet]

The FFZ was originally a place where otherwise verboten topics could be discussed. The potential for it to be a place where oral dysentery could breed and flourish was the accepted price to pay for what could, and sometimes is, a place where politically charged topics could be intelligently discussed.
I don't post there as regularly as I used to. A lot of the discussion is of the 'open mouth, vent bilious, parochial opinion' variety that cares little for anything but the sound of its own voice.
There are still intelligent discourses to be found, though. Keep it. That's my vote.

Shot

[Nikatori]

I voted to close it down. In my opinion, both the moderators and members are not up to it. You can find a lot of places where these topics are intelligently discussed in a civilized and professional way. What we have here is "parochial opinion variety that cares little for anything but the sound of its own voice." Someday we will find someone who has read two opposing books arguing to himself in a single thread. Tempting, but I’ll pass.

[JayMan]

I guess we should keep it; as Shot said, there are still some intelligent threads to be found.

[Bluewings]

I voted to get rid of it .

Cheers . :3starsk2:

[JayMan]

An effort has been made by Ssnake, Sean and others to offer us the possibility to be more "open-minded" than in GZ.
The problem is, my pov, that some people use the FFZ as a private combat zone.
These things should be done by PMs and stay private.
Who cares about what a guy thinks about an other one, except the ones concerned ? (sounds a little messy !!! LOL)
Just to say it'll be a shame on all of us to junk the efforts made by others to offer us the FFZ.

[PS-SCUD]

As much as I've enjoyed some of the discussions I've had there, I voted to get rid of it.

As a whole, it's been bad for the community. It's led to a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of fights. I'm with HH on this one, it causes more trouble than it's worth.

[ShotMagnet]

As a whole, it's been bad for the community. It's led to a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of fights. I'm with HH on this one, it causes more trouble than it's worth.

That's because the moderators, in the interest of fairness, and exercising superhuman forebearance, did not shut down some threads before the chain reaction got out of hand.
It's also because, despite explicit warnings, a few of us could not be troubled to treat the person we were talking to with the same respect as if that person were standing in the same room.
Whether or not the FFZ is closed down or not makes little difference to me, though I voted to keep it going. I moderate a Yahoo club that performs the same function, but it took some doing by a lot of us to get the powers that be to grant us the FFZ. Seems like it'd be a slap in the face to those people if it were closed down, just because it's acquired a lousy signal-to-noise ratio.

Shot

[mapman]

I voted to retain it because I think it serves a good purpose in allowing political, social and religous topics that are otherwise taboo to be discussed. In addition, it is voluntary. No one has to join the FFZ.

That being said, I find it sad, troubling and frustrating that some who have intelligent opinions on many subject can not seem to find the words without degrading themselves to using excessive foul language, personal insults, put downs, attacks and name calling against those that disagree with them.

Shame on you who do this!

There is NO REASON why you can not agree to disagree and have perfectly good, deep, thoughtful disagreements, discourse and debate on a wide variety of subjects without turning them into a back ally brawl.

So, I vote to keep the FFZ open, but with much harsher limitations and consequences for those who insist on cat fights instead of healthy debate and discussion.

[PS-SCUD]

"That's because the moderators, in the interest of fairness, and exercising superhuman forebearance, did not shut down some threads before the chain reaction got out of hand. "

But Shot, by definition, everything that needs to be posted in the FFZ instead of GZ (I.E. Religious, political, and other imflamitory topics) is going to get "out of hand" because of its nature.

"It's also because, despite explicit warnings, a few of us could not be troubled to treat the person we were talking to with the same respect as if that person were standing in the same room. "

Um, I really think that if we were having the same debate, in a room together, we would say the same things. In fact, it would probably be less intelligently spoken, because we wouldn't have the same amount of time to think about it. You can catch things that are too personal, or too crude, before you make a post. It is much harder to catch those same things when you are speaking.

"I moderate a Yahoo club that performs the same function, but it took some doing by a lot of us to get the powers that be to grant us the FFZ. Seems like it'd be a slap in the face to those people if it were closed down, just because it's acquired a lousy signal-to-noise ratio."

I wanted the FFZ way back when also, but it seems like now 9 out of 10 threads are blatant: Trolls, flamebait, etc.

For example, a thread with the title: "Big brother is REALLY watching you!",nothing could be a more blatant troll than that title. It's so blatant, it's almost funny.

There have been some really interesting discussions in the FFZ, but the rest are either, flamebate, trolls, or they could be posted in GZ.

[DrDevice]

I think Shot's point on "in the same room" is directed at the fact that if people said some of the things they do, it would end up in a fist fight. I'd certainly not tolerate the behavior some people display when they are safe and sound out on the Internet. The worst that can happen on the forum is a ban, meaning the offender will have to search for yet another place to vent, flame, and generally make fools of themselves.

Yes, it's voluntary, but it doesn't always stay in the FFZ. I know of several incidents that came out in threads posted here. Since the bad feelings are here, they stay here. If you take the political, taboo, and otherwise NOT SB stuff off of the SB site, then the offenders are welcome to go flame away somewhere and keep it off of this board.

I voted "don't care" but that's only because I don't bother with the FFZ. But I certainly don't like the leaking mess that gets tracked in here.

[RENEGADE-623]

I voted that I dont care what happens to it. Im sorry, and this is my opinion only, but free fire zone should mean just that, free fire zone. But in my opinion it isnt really a free fire zone when im being told what i can and cant say.

[ShermansWar]

deleted

[ShermansWar]

First we shut down RTW. We regretted it.
Now we wanna shut down the FFZ?we'll regret that too.
Seems like anything that gives the community the same character as the hard hitting sim we play,
some people are opposed to. Clearly, Steelbeasts is tougher than the community that plays it.

[ShotMagnet]

Um, I really think that if we were having the same debate, in a room together, we would say the same things. In fact, it would probably be less intelligently spoken, because we wouldn't have the same amount of time to think about it. You can catch things that are too personal, or too crude, before you make a post. It is much harder to catch those same things when you are speaking.
On the other hand, there's nothing like looking another person in the eye. Believe it or not, not being able to see the face of another person goes a long way toward saying something offal (I didn't misspell that). DD said the same thing. There's a certain anonymity that goes along with sitting at the keyboard and beating out your frustrations which also emboldens one to say things the one would likely not say to another's face.
This is what has given the FFZ a bad name. Map said it right when he said something about how, given a choice between scat and intelligence, a lot of us choose scat.

...Shot, by definition, everything that needs to be posted in the FFZ...is going to get "out of hand" because of its nature.
I disagree. I believe it's possible to discuss a topic without it going nuclear if the contributors remember some basic rules of civilized conduct. As an example, Mapman wrote something in the thread about extraterrestrial life that I utterly disagreed with. Rather than call him an ugly, tank-loving, malfeasant stack of protein, I pointed out the facts and how they were at variance with what he'd written.
In the same thread, Chap and I had a rather interesting debate about what planets could support life, how many of them there could be, and why. Indeed, when speaking of someone who can intelligently state his point of view, the first name that pops into my tiny little mind is Chap's.
He and I have disagreed about a number of things, and we have yet to call each other names. He has never done other than state his point of view in an intelligent and rational manner. He does it all the time, too. Find every post by Chaplain, then find any instance where he said something deliberately insulting. It's possible to speak your mind without at the same time venting your spleen.
Chap, Map, Captain Colossus, Chrisotto, and at least a dozen others can and have done it on a regular basis. All that's needed is a little maturity.
When we post here, doesn't matter which forum, we're supposed to conform to a social ethic which is commonly called 'good manners'. I note that some have labeled the FFZ as just that, a place where anyone can say anything, but that wasn't really the purpose of the FFZ. After all, anyone wishing to be only insulting can do it as easily in GZ, or anywhere else. Still, some saw the FFZ as a dumping ground for mental colic just because it bore the title components 'Free Fire', forgetting that standards of conduct that would apply anywhere else, regardless of circumstance, should apply there as well.
That's the real issue, by the way.
'The FFZ is a flame-bating troll-zone'.
Fine, let's do something about it. We have moderators, they have the ability to remove, temporarily or otherwise, the offending party or parties. Think of the FFZ in its current state as a sink full of dirty dishes. Do you ignore them, or get the soap?

Shot

[mapman]

Ditto on Shot's comments.

Sherm, I personally enjoy reading and when I have the time debating your points of view. I often agree with them. But comments like this,

...and cavmenan you full of shit. I read the patriot act and...

could just as easily be stated, "...and caveman, I have a hard time believing your read the entire act and..."

You can say what you want to say without making personal insults and putdowns. The FFZ came together so we could discuss hot topics, not get into pissing matches and putting one another down and airing our dirty laundry against another member for all to read.

Debate the topics, use strong language, but you don't have to use foul language and you don't have to insult others.

I want the FFZ to continue. I think the debate is good. But if all that happens is tit for tat name calling and put downs verses real disucssion and debate, then what is the point?

PS - I thought to Big Brother thread was a good and necessary discussion. Too bad we could not stay focused on the topic :cry:

[Poker]

First we shut down RTW. We regretted it.
Now we wanna shut down the FFZ?we'll regret that too.
Seems like anything that gives the community the same character as the hard hitting sim we play,
some people are opposed to. Clearly, Steelbeasts is tougher than the community that plays it.

Seems to me you are inferring something against someone - I'll PM you with my comments. :wink:

[Lone*star49]

...

Gentlemen, I thought that such a post subject would be (for lack of a better description) a subject and Vote, with one's reasoning why the FFZ should, or should not, be continued. But, now I see that it has turned into the typical post replys, that one keeps "thinking" of why I (plural..more than 1) should say something more.. and I know it will continue.

I really begin by first apoligzing for the length I fear this post of mine will turn out to be. But can assure most readers, that in spelling, and proper, easy reading, format, it will be easy on your eyes, with few mistakes..

I started out in this community over 3 yrs ago, and it was the first and only forum and sim/game, that I have ever been envolved with. For the longest time, I hid my true age, because I knew that most where young, and still in what I call, "life is good, and forever mode".. as I have, or was there too, until I fell off my roof at the age of 47, and it took me 2 yrs to learn to walk again, and never the same, with 2 broken heals.. Not long after that life changing event, that opened my eyes to the fact that life from where I see it, down a road that is the same for each of us, that I have 55 miles down the same road of life that each of you now travel, with the only difference being, some may go farther down the same road and some will not..

We had just gotten this same computor in 99, that I am using now, and basically learned to turn it on and off.. and thru trial and error, learned how to put in a couple of sims/games.. all where flying at first, cause it's what I really know and love, and most important, understood. I got this sim by pure chance, somtime in 2000, as a result of my most loved German Shepherd (the true Battledog) when he came down with bladder cancer at the age of 7. The flight sims, I played long into the nights, trying to stay up with my dog to lengthen/stall the passing time that I knew was getting short, in that he was given ( after a surgery) that only bought him limited time before the cancer would spread to liver, lungs, etc.. and I got this sim, just as the stockboy was putting it on the shelfs.

With this sim, I was able to get my mind off my situation and battle long into the remaining nights, ever so frustrated, by its kicking my ass, and having no immunity option to let me kill and not be killed with Battledog by my side, and was able to look at him and pet him long thru the remaing nights.

But, when the final day came, and I had to make the decision that many here, know is the toughest decision to make.. I really turned hard to this sim and it freed my mind for the hours I continued to get my ass kicked and many hours after, thinking, WTF do I have to do/learn to get past this grey area of the sim that I am not getting..?

The same holds true now, in what's happening to this community, becasuse of the FFZ and the truth, that it only takes a few, to ruin it for all.. And it's not in honorable type debate or discussions, or agruments ie different opinions, but rather, in the ways that some deliever their messages.. just plain degrading and nothing else. I read excuse after excuse, and it's hogwash, in the context, that if ya can't handle it, then leave, don't partake, it's the nature of the sim ie war and killing, and on..

I know better, and truly respect so many in this Community, given their backgrounds and the exchange of free language, in chat and the old forums as they exsisted prior to the FFZ.

But it has also come to light, that many (or so I've been told most recently) that terms I use, such as "Ah.. young Grasshoppper" for one, is taken as condensending, or a hidden line, that really means.. You dumbshit, you know nothing and God knows what else others read into that.. along with the fact that most do know my age (and still, not a pleasent thing for me to admit and most certainly, am not proud of) as many of you are long away from the rude wake-up call that awaits you from father time. And yet, I now find out that I am being thought of as some kind of aged, know it all, condensending talking, senior SB (self thinking) legend, or martar, or leader, that has tried to break up the GUNN, or move this entire Community thru some self imposed image of old and wise, and create "movements" to bring justice to others or changes in the community that some view as good and reasonble, and some as trying to divide and split this community up and go with my thoughts..

This new revelation to me, comes with a price that honestly, is not worth the effort, my self worth is in question, when I know that along the way I have made mistakes, but, have aploligized for them and learned from them. I dare say that this is not true among some of us in here, and I see further division, as evidence of my statement. I only say this, in that I know many in here that have been members of the Community longer than me, and in all the years, I have seen disagreements that, when the foul language came out, I can only picture the events I was reading as to standing face to face, and the only thing preventing a actual fight, was that the screen you all are reading this thru, seperated them from it happening. And from what I have seen in just the recent past, a member that I have known came unglued because of what I know is condensending statements and in your face trash talk, and yet, he was convinced by friends, to retract his rage, and did. This is what I deam, "Team Effort".. Most in this Community play by that term, and a few do not.. And yet the few that do not, continue with the in your face statements, along with the bold statements that they knows the facts, and most of the others do not.

Knowledge is a gift, but "wisdom" to share, not lecture, is something that seperates those that are opened minded as opposed to this is the way it is, the truth, in your face post, and brings with it, the truth of too much knowledge without wisdom is a dangerous thing.. Thus I give you our current problem..

However this FFZ situation turns out, I personally have come to a conclusion that I will refer less to the forums (all of them) as it truly appears to be soapbox for just a few to vent their hostile views, in, in your face post, or a way to vent their suspisions of clean post with hidden ugly condensending talking down too old wisdom tricks, without a care if it offends the reader or not..

Therefore, I give you all notice, that I will be fading, as I personally have found myself in a no win position with this community.. And change my vote to No FFZ, in the hopes that for the few that have mangaged to be such a dividing, negative force on the community as a whole, and for my small part viewed by many (from what I hear) of intentionally pushing these buttons on the few that can't control their emotions other than by talking trash talk-in your face, in regards to everyday life as a normal means of communitcation and the rest of you just have to accept it and deal with it, I will, on my part, not take part in many post in any forums, because I have been honored by my enemys, as well as what I concidered, some good friends, in abusing my "known" ways of decieving post that untill, I was told how brilliant and mean they really where, was and is news to me, and with such power that I didn't realize I welded, I cannot go on, and unknowingly ruin a few lives, when I posted with mostly ecouragement, positive, hurmorist, well meaning post replys to the vast majority of our Community..

I have done and tried my best for this Commuinty and its members, but it is time for LS to turn a new page and move on.. as all I can tell you all, and hope that it is not felt as condesending, talking down to anyone, that change is gonna happen to each and every one of you.. what you do with that change, is what will make you friends, or make you enemys, make you happy, or make you unhappy, and all the suscpision that goes with it.


LS :wink:

[Chaplain]

I think an issue here is that we're not the close-knit community that we like to think we are. Many of us (myself included) thought the it would be great to be able to discuss any topic with my friends here, and I was one of those who argued strongly for something like the FFZ.

What has happened, though, is that when a number of people got involved in the FFZ debates and realized just how much they disagreed with some others on significant issues (primarily politics), they suddenly took a dim view of those other guys. They didn't just take a dim view on a few of their opinions, but they seem to have taken a dim view of them as people. I'll admit that I have had periods where I thought that a particular person here was a "bad person" and wished he would go away, though so far that feeling has always subsided.

Add to that the fact that in many other cases, what one guy thought was a joke was considered by another as a serious insult. Every group is like that - you can trade barbs within the group, but just let an "outsider" say the very same thing and he'll get the cold shoulder, or even a beating. Here, we have the awkward situation where guys think we're all in the same group, but we're really not. We're divided along all kinds of lines, and we have to be sensitive to that. For example, as an American I try to be careful not to say things that the Europeans might tolerate from another European but take offense to from an American. I know better than to assume that "we're all military enthusiasts, so surely they know I'm one of them." No, it doesn't work that way. While I know a few of the Europeans such that I think I can speak with complete freedom in private correspondence with them, I know that it is likely that others would get upset if I said the same exact words in a public forum post.

If we really were a close-knit community, then I don't think that there would be nearly as much of a problem with the FFZ. People might still get upset with each other during arguments, but they would likely put it behind them. However, we are not a close-knit community. Rather, we are a bunch of guys who have a passion for tank simulations, and this is the absolute best place to find other guys with that interest. It is SB, and really only SB, that keeps us together. Once we get too far away from talking about and/or playing the game, those dividing lines get very large, very quickly.

This doesn't mean the FFZ can't work. However, I think it does mean that the FFZ will only work if everyone uses a certain amount of restraint. I know that some of you think that restraint=censorship. Sorry, but the demographics here just don't allow absolute freedom to work. The idea that is/was that FFZ is a place for any topic, not a place for any statement. Though we don't intend to tell people what they can or can't argue for, we have to set rules about the type of arguments that are allowed and the choices of wording that are acceptable.

This should not mean that we think better of people who prefer those rules, or lesser of people who find those rules restraining.

[Poker]

LS, seems to me you need a beer/cigarette/cigar/sex/placebo !!!
You have been nothing but supportive about the furtherance of SB in many matters - usually one of the first to welcome anyone new, and always willing to help those who need it.
I fully expect you to retract your above comments and get yer butt back to posting ! :wink:

[Hell_Hound]

This doesn't mean the FFZ can't work. However, I think it does mean that the FFZ will only work if everyone uses a certain amount of restraint.

And similarly, a certain amount of tolerance. There's a list of "Rules for Living With Men" out there on the net, and one of the rules is:

If something we say can be interpreted two ways, and one of those ways makes you feel angry or sad, we probably meant the other one.

Several conflagrations have started because a harsh rebuke was posted where a request for clarification might have been in order.

Endless rambling commentary deleted. You're welcome. ;)

[Lone*star49]

LS, seems to me you need a beer/cigarette/cigar/sex/placebo !!!
You have been nothing but supportive about the furtherance of SB in many matters - usually one of the first to welcome anyone new, and always willing to help those who need it.
I fully expect you to retract your above comments and get yer butt back to posting ! :wink:
...

Right.. The Yes Vote for the FFZ to remain has changed to: 13

:arrow: The No vote to shut it down has changed and is now: 11


LS :wink:

[TankHunter]

Let me add my two cents in this. Fights on the site will happen, with or with out the FFZ. Because someone might get pissed about a MP game and a fight happens because of that, should we ban Steel Beasts? The answer that you come up with that should be the same that you come up with the FFZ. That you keep it.

[RnR]

I think some of the pissing contests lead to good things - for instance, my little reenactment of the civil war with sherm led me to delve into things deeper, adn i now side with him on his belief of the root cause of the war - slavery. Even wrote a song about the whole experience =) Anyway, hot tempers and blowhards aint really such a bad thing sometimes I think.

[Dewman]

Lonestar

I think that after you have had time to "cool your jets" and rethink things that you should not leave this community..
Just my opinion.

Dewman

[Hell_Hound]

...Because someone might get pissed about a MP game and a fight happens because of that, should we ban Steel Beasts? The answer that you come up with that should be the same that you come up with the FFZ. That you keep it.

I'm positive this isn't a valid comparison, but I'm trying to think of the best way to demonstrate my point. Maybe someone else will beat me to it. :)

[TankHunter]

LS, seems to me you need a beer/cigarette/cigar/sex/placebo !!!
You have been nothing but supportive about the furtherance of SB in many matters - usually one of the first to welcome anyone new, and always willing to help those who need it.
I fully expect you to retract your above comments and get yer butt back to posting ! :wink:

I agree there Poker. LS is probably one of the best people on the site. It will be a horrible thing to see him go.

[PS-SCUD]

And similarly, a certain amount of tolerance. There's a list of "Rules for Living With Men" out there on the net, and one of the rules is:

If something we say can be interpreted two ways, and one of those ways makes you feel angry or sad, we probably meant the other one.

Several conflagrations have started because a harsh rebuke was posted where a request for clarification might have been in order.

Endless rambling commentary deleted. You're welcome


That's the problem with the FFZ HH.

While you can have the same discussion with someone you know well about a certain sensitive issue, and he will not take it personally, because you are friends, and he knows you hold no animosity towards him. (Ex. me talking to Stump, Sherman, Chaplain, etc.)

If you have that same discussion in the FFZ, there will be other people, that don't know you very well, and don't know if you are atacking them, or being satirical, or joking. Then feelings will get hurt, and people will be mis-understood.

That's why I think the forums should be kept to more friendly topics. Half the topics in the FFZ (largely humorous topics) could be posted in GZ, and everything else is likely to divide the community.

If you want to have a religious, or political discussion with someone, feel free, but do so in private chats. Those are rather personal things anyway.

This site is supposed to support, and foster the SB community, anything that is not beneficial to the community, should not be on the site. I feel the FFZ is no longer beneficial to the community.

[tankrlm]

Should'nt this topic be on the FFZ?

[Hell_Hound]

Rgr Scud, my point exactly - maybe people should print your post out and stick it to their monitor. :)

Especially on the net, where the guys you're talking to are from another country, culture or continent and may be handicapped by a language barrier, you have to stay cool when you suspect somebody is "attacking you, being satirical, or joking".

If we accept the premise that "As in my country, a significant percentage of people in other countries are not obnoxious assholes", it makes sense not to go into counterattack mode the instant you think you may have been slighted. ;)

And yes, maybe this topic should be on the FFZ, but that's what statisticians call "sample bias". Besides, I never post in there because you guys scare me. ;)

[tankrlm]

Gheeeeeeezzzzz,cool down ,only typed words,stop being so thin skinned. I imagine half of the posts coming from guys sitting around in their girl friends underwear.. :wink: The members of this forum are geeks,idiots,nerds,warriors,old farts,rebels,wannabes,normal people from around the world,it's up to you to guess which. The only bond we have is SB..do'nt take this place so seriously. :D Some on this site will try to dazzle us with their brilliance....great i like reading some of the topics. Enough now i'm off to play golf.(really)....Yes,i'll change my under wear. :roll:See i told you this should be on FFZ.

[PS-SCUD]

"Gheeeeeeezzzzz,cool down ,only typed words,stop being so thin skinned. I imagine half of the posts coming from guys sitting around in their girl friends underwear."

LOL. Well, for my part, I can take any !*#@ you care to dish out Tankr, but to quote Oddball (form KH) "Take it easy Big Joe, some of these people got sensitive feelings."

As far as this website concerns me, I want what is best for SB. I want what willl increase the amount of people playing it, and therefore, increase the amount of money going to Ssnake, Al, and the rest of the eSim gang, because I like the games they make, and want them to make more.

[Lone*star49]

Lonestar

I think that after you have had time to "cool your jets" and rethink things that you should not leave this community..
Just my opinion.

Dewman
...

Dew, one of my favorite sayings: cool your jets, lol, and I assure you that when I wrote my post replys of late in the FFZ, along with the above one, my jets where cool, and nothing I wrote had any heat or anger in them, though some read them differently and have expressed such, and that is my no win situation that I refer to, and why I will be fading, in posting, in that the joy, fun, challenge, whatever inspires me, is gone. As I mentioned and reiterate, it has been brought to my attention that many think that my post are read as condensending/talking down to, along with hidden mean messages, etc.. And nothing could be farther from the truth, however, if these people, whom I concidered friends and having unbiased views, have enlighted me to some blindness that I can't see, but I know that what I say/write, is not of those eliments, when I wrote them, nor when I write..

It's not in my Spirit per say. Only thing I have ever done is shared information or my thoughts, and I do not approve of any "preaching" type talk or posting.. (no one likes to be preached at).

But the "joy" that is the driving force is fading, and as I stated, so will my posting as a result.

Game wise, I still have that joy to some degree, but one area drives the other so, I can only be honest here and say what I have said..


LS :wink:

[PS-SCUD]

But when SB2 comes out, you won't be able to stay away LS :D

You'll be like a hippie in a pot field :wink:

[tankrlm]

[quote]
nothing I wrote had any heat or anger in them, though some read them differently and have expressed such, and that is my no win situation that I refer to, and why I will be fading, in posting, in that the joy, fun, challenge, whatever inspires..............LS..who cares if some read them differently? If everyone agreed on everything what would be the purpose of a forum? I believe some people just try to upset others for no reason.Consider the source..."from the depth of ignorance you should take it as a compliment. Some of these friends may only be 10 years old..how do you know? :roll: I have told others that i am 61 years old...how do you know on this forum? Bluewing probably ca'nt boil water and is from West Virginia. :lol: Shermans really in prison and has alot of time on his hands. :wink: EE is really a nice guy,but misses his medication once in awhile. :roll: etc,etc and etc.Some people like to play with others minds,that,s the way it is...do'nt let this stuff bother you.Anyway from what i have seen you are smart enough to "kick their ass" :mrgreen:

[PS-SCUD]

lmfao.....those are funny hypothesis. I wanna hear more lol.


I'm a 17 year old teenage loser. Do you doubt me?

[Hell_Hound]

Not for a second. ;)

[PS-SCUD]

LOL, back to the topic at hand.

I just went through every thread in the FFZ. All the ones that didn't need to be there, I moved to the appropriate thread. I had 1 that belonged in General, 3 in Mod discussions, and the rest could go to GZ. All in all, I'd say I moved about 25 threads.

Why move them?

Well for starters, many people don't have FFZ membership, and don't go there. They miss out on some great humor. For example, my "Christmas present for Nikatori thread" ( http://www.steelbeasts.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1803 ) :lol: I posted it in the FFZ, perhaps thinking it was a little too colorfull for GZ. Nik didn't see it until I told him it was in the FFZ (he avoided going in there.). Now in this case, that was nice, because it allowed everyone to pile on lol.

I also wanted show people they need it less than they think they do. Go look at all the topics in there, that I moved, and are perfectly acceptible elsewhere.

Now I enjoy a good religious or political discussion, in fact, I'm about to post a mammoth amount of thought on one of the threads, but if I have to choose, between keeping the community tight knit and fun to play with, and having those discussions in the FFZ, I choose the former.

I can still have those discussions, but I will have them privately with people, and if they don't feel like discussing it, that's fine.

[ShermansWar]

i didnt know you could move threads like that. i assumed people put them in the FFZ cause they wanted them there. you are defacto eliminating the FFZ.I dont think it was cool to do that.
were you told to do that?

[PS-SCUD]

Darn.....I've really stepped in the crap haven't I?
Noone asked me to do it Sherm.

I asked if anyone had a problem with it.......lots of moderators were on.

I waited....waited......waited.....figured nobody had a problem with it.

I'll move them back if it's a problem. If they aren't political or religious, or a flame, or a troll, why do they need to be in the FFZ?

[PS-SCUD]

OK.....I moved them ALL back. Sorry if I bothered anyone by moving your thread without your permission :(

[ShermansWar]

test

[Ratseal]

Guys, guys, guys.... lets get back to the game!

LS - I hope that you stick around. The old salts around here make things a little more interesting, rather like dropping a chunk of hard romano into a simmering pot of pasta sauce.

To whomever originated the comment about exchanging comms as though you were face to face - thank you! Its a great perspective to keep as you type.

To our moderators and admin(s): Thanks for your efforts. I hope that the approbation of a few is worth the years of therapy that this job will cost you.

If we lose the FFZ, it isn't the end of the world, and might just reintroduce greater consistency of civility into the fora.

[PS-SCUD]

No it doesn't Sherman. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have moved them. Just because they don't NEED to be there doesn't mean they shouldn't be.

I guess I'm just a organizing nut :? Sorry...I'm a little tired as well. Probably making alot of bad decisions as of late.

I see a picture.....I straighten it. I shouldn't though, it's not my picture.

[Hell_Hound]

PS-SCUD
Disgraced Former Moderator


:mrgreen:

[PS-SCUD]

Yes indeed.

Someone take away my powers before I do something really stupid! :shock:

*attempts to delete himself.....* :casstet:

[tankrlm]

Scud:You had your chance to control Sherman,but you acted like a 17 year old loser. :D Now look what happened..................

A plumber who left an unattended bag containing a teddy bear, some fruit and clothes in an airport lounge was jailed yesterday for causing a full-scale security alert.(a teddy bear?) :roll:(Scuds words:I'm a 17 year old teenage loser. Do you doubt me? )

[JayMan]

A plumber who left an unattended bag containing a teddy bear, some fruit and clothes in an airport lounge was jailed yesterday for causing a full-scale security alert.(a teddy bear?)


Was that Sherman ? :hallucine: :hallucine:

[ShermansWar]

Sounds like something I'd do.
Once, when i was 12, the Fire Dept. came by, and evacuated all the houses on my block because someone smelled gas next door and almost fainted. The Firemen came to my door to find me strirring pudding on the stove, staring at it as i wondered for 30 minutes why it wouldnt come to a boil.

[Poker]

You were lucky - by the time I was 12, I'd have lit a cigarette while I was waiting. :shock:
Oh, so that's how you light the range ?!?!?!?!

[ShermansWar]

In the end it's about who we have left to play the game with. We must play nice.Or we will have noone to play with :idea: :shock:

[tankrlm]

The story would have been funnier if you just used this part of your explanation. :mrgreen: (Once, when i was 12, the Fire Dept. came by, and evacuated all the houses on my block because someone smelled gas next door and almost fainted.) (heard Marine/plumber farts are pretty bad)

[JayMan]

I think in Norway they have some thing called the "plumber's ass" or something like that, don't remember.
It's just an expression like "talking to the big white phone" (norwegians should know that one)

[ShermansWar]

Yes, there is a logocal explanation for the phenomeneon known as Plumbers crack.
First, one needs the body mass to throw around Boilers, Oiltanks, Hot wated heaters, and various and sundried other materials that weigh from a few hundred to a few thousand pounds, thus necessitating a big fat bastard of a plumber. (he is if he's a real Plumber)

This, coupled with the fact that we must be human slinkies, able to slip under sinks, into crawl spaces, attics, and other tight and ridiculous spots and contortions that the human body rebels against has our pants sliding down constantly.
Thus, plumbers crack. The waist in the pants always gets stretched from being twisted up and bent over all the time.

[JayMan]

_Any plumbers in the assistance ?
(loud noise comming from the crowd)
_Ok, all of u stay calm, Sherm was just kidding !!!!!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[mapman]

I see a picture.....I straighten it. I shouldn't though, it's not my picture.

PS is really Monk is disguise! :lol:

[ShermansWar]

Umm, no, i wasnt kidding, Thats really why we all have the crack. It's true. Really.Otherwise only SOME plumbers would have it and not ALL of us. Really.

[JayMan]

LOL !

[Dewman]

Let me give you a clue Sheraman... The thread was not shut down becouse EE asked that it be. I was informed that things were getting to hot in there and I told Sean that I would lock it if one more post was made in a negitive way that would continue the forum violations. But several more post were made before I got a chance to read it again.. So I locked it. Just by chance EE"s post was the last one.

Dewman

[BlackDeath]

I dont vote. If somebody doenst like the FFZ, hes not obliged to post any messages in this part of the forum.
We are free to do what we want, participate or no to the FFZ...

[ShermansWar]

deleted

[BlackDeath]

i DIDNT SEE ANY POSTS VIOLATED FORUM GUIDELINES. THE TONE WAS HOSTILE AT ONE POINT AND UNPLEASANT, BUT I DIDNT SEE ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE GUIDELINES THAT FELL INTO A REPEATED PATTERN THAT NECESSITATED THE THREAD BEING LOCKED.I dont think the thread should have been locked.sry i used caps, didnt notice, too loazy to change it. sry for yelling, LOL.

Youre right SW...Agree with you.

[Dewman]

I think you need to read that thread again

[ShermansWar]

deleted.

[Ratseal]

Total of 33 votes. 14 people say keep the FFZ. Registration membership of what, 1400 or so (on SB)? Thats what, 1%? We spend almost as much time arguing about how we communicate with each other, as we spend advancing the narrow and defined interest of this community, ie, armored combat simulation. Heck, recently we seem to spend even more time arguing, judging from the volume of posts on the 3 (at least 3) thread following this topic alone.

How about pouring some of that energy into the various campaigns be proposed and readied? There is always the SBDG crew...

Hmmm.

[Poker]

Ah, Ratseal - consider the percentage that actually vote in an election - and you wonder why on a small forum like ours we have a total of 29 votes ?

Also, I believe LS wished his vote counted to remove FFZ, so it's actually 13 to keep FFZ, 12 to remove and 4 don't care.

[PS-SCUD]

"Yeah, keep take that advice please yourself and keep what comes from the FFZ in the FFZ. Some people do not care about who did what - they are here for SB."

Which is why we should take Poker and Rat's idea and make a seperate forum on another MB.

Then on this site, we completely ignore the other forum, and do not reference ANYTHING said there.

Everything left on these forums will be moderated strictly. The other forum will be unmoderated.

[TopKick]

I’ve always thought that there was a distinct difference between opinion and debate.That seems to have been lost in the FFZ. Nobody can express an opinion or open a subject for debate in the FFZ without being personally attacked and slandered or insulted – usually by a tiny minority of individuals who makes it hell for anyone to even bother to participate. They have no tolerance for opinions that differ from their own. So there you have it. I vote to get rid of the FFZ or the trouble makers.

But the caterwauling, walleyed hissy-fits are fun to read. :D

[Poker]

I may be caterwauling, but I am in no way walleyed !!! :P

[ShotMagnet]

There is always the SBDG crew...

I'm pedaling as fast as I can!

Shot

[Lone*star49]

Ah, Ratseal - consider the percentage that actually vote in an election - and you wonder why on a small forum like ours we have a total of 29 votes ?

Also, I believe LS wished his vote counted to remove FFZ, so it's actually 13 to keep FFZ, 12 to remove and 4 don't care.
...

Actually Poker, as the real count stands on the front page post poll 14 yes 12 no, I have not physically re voted.. so it really stands at 13 Yes (taking away my posted vote, and 13 No


Adding my voiced changed vote to No..

13 Yes

13 No


LS

[Nikatori]

Well, as Scud recently demonstrated by transferring appropriate threads in or out of the FFZ, we can all express our opinions freely in the main forum. As pointed by numerous people and numerous times, it’s not what you say, but how you say it. I believe that these threads can be viewed and argued publicly, if done in the right way.

Therefore, the FFZ is only there to serve people who cannot or refuse to express their minds in a manner publicly acceptable.

Due to the diverse ethic & age (and others) backgrounds of the members, I think the “publicly acceptable” standard is the best alternative. Come SB2, an influx of new members is expected. Are we really proud of the type of the “freedom of speech” we have in the FFZ ? Is it really an accurate representation of how the members of the SB Community define freedom of speech ?

I say No. In fact, it is the manifestation of the few individuals who go to the extreme. It’s the manifestation of mudslinging, swashbuckling individuals who missed an unforgettable Cinco de Mayo 15 years ago and wants the rerun today, and everyday !

Just say No. :D

[tankrlm]

Actually Poker, as the real count stands on the front page post poll 14 yes 12 no, I have not physically re voted.. so it really stands at 13 Yes (taking away my posted vote, and 13 No


Adding my voiced changed vote to No..

13 Yes

13 No


LS
Who let Kerry in hear? :shock:

[tankrlm]

Hey...i'm from Florida,can i vote afew more times? :wink:

[PS-SCUD]

I demand a recount.

[Bluewings]

I am sure few of you remember I was one who was asking (screaming I should say) for a FFZ .

Now , I regret it bitterly .

The FFZ had one good side , to make us know each other better . It hasn 't been for the good unfortunatly .

Get rid of the FFZ .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Ratseal]

I say that we all do pushups in expiation.

...and 2,312, 2,313, 2,314.....

[Lone*star49]

I say that we all do pushups in expiation.

...and 2,312, 2,313, 2,314.....
...

I am starting mine now.. 2,313, as apparently I have been banned from the FFZ.

But let me assure you, I am not doing my pushups as punishment, rather..

:arrow: for the exercise.. LOL


LS :wink:

[Lone*star49]

I say that we all do pushups in expiation.

...and 2,312, 2,313, 2,314.....
...

.. 2,314


LS :wink:

[Poker]

Give the old age thing a rest LS, you're as young as you feel, so pick up a 20 yr old college girl !!! ;)
I don't think anyone views you as an old man - in fact I doubt anyone even cares how old you are, rather they care how long you've been playing and what you can teach them.

[Lone*star49]

Give the old age thing a rest LS, you're as young as you feel, so pick up a 20 yr old college girl !!! ;)
I don't think anyone views you as an old man - in fact I doubt anyone even cares how old you are, rather they care how long you've been playing and what you can teach them.
...

Oh sure Poker.. and have my wife *cut off my dick and shove it up my ass..* :shock: as she has warned me of this exact scenario.. and said exactly that* :?


I'll stick to better older advise... LOL :wink:


LS :)

[Poker]

Dude - your wife's been talking to my wife !!! I swear ! :lol:

[ShermansWar]

anyway, everyones 40 around here, so who's old?

[PS-SCUD]

Oh sure Poker.. and have my wife *cut off my dick and shove it up my ass..* as she has warned me of this exact scenario.. and said exactly that*

No no. She wouldn't do that. This is what she will do:

She will take you to the garage, put IT in a vice. Wind the vice up tight, then remove the vice handle. Then she'll pour gasoline on one of the walls, and light the place on fire. Then she'll get a hack saw. She'll start walking towards you, and when you say, "You arn't going to cut IT off are you!", she'll reply, with an maniacle look in her eye, "No..........you are!", then she'll hand you the saw and leave.

[PS-SCUD]

"anyway, everyones 40 around here, so who's old?"


Sherm....you and LS are grumpy old men :mrgreen:
The entertainment you provide for me is one of my best reasons for keeping the FFZ.

Nothing like watching a bunch of elderly people fight :wink: :lol:

[ShermansWar]

Retard fights are the best, them and cripple fights

[PS-SCUD]

So I guess I get the best of both worlds! :twisted: :P :lol: :lol: (You stepped into that one)

[ShotMagnet]

I don't think anyone views you as an old man...

That's true. You're far too super-annuated to be thought of as merely 'old'. :mrgreen:

Shot

[Lone*star49]

I don't think anyone views you as an old man...

That's true. You're far too super-annuated to be thought of as merely 'old'. :mrgreen:

Shot
...

Ah.. moderators, I don't know what "Your're too super-annuated" means..

Could you look into this for me :?:

LMAO kidding...


LS :lol:

[Poker]

I don't think anyone views you as an old man...

That's true. You're far too super-annuated to be thought of as merely 'old'. :mrgreen:

Shot
...

Ah.. moderators, I don't know what "Your're too super-annuated" means..

Could you look into this for me :?:

LMAO kidding...


LS :lol:

The only time I've heard it is to do with tax - maybe they're saying you're due a refund ??
Or maybe over taxed ?
Or maybe you're too taxing on us ??
Or maybe they're suggesting a taxi ?/
or maybe .....................wait, taxi ?? where did that come from ?
:wink:

[ShotMagnet]

Per Random House: superannuated-too old to be useful. Meant with nothing but the quintessence of respect, of course. Boy am I gonna catch Hell for this.

Shot

[Lone*star49]

Per Random House: superannuated-too old to be useful. Meant with nothing but the quintessence of respect, of course. Boy am I gonna catch Hell for this.

Shot
...

:arrow: I've got you know Shot.. Moderators, take notice of that flame..


LMAO, good call Shot.. :lol:


LS :wink:

[ShotMagnet]

Bad Shot! No biscuit, go lay down!
If it's any consolation, my 12-year-old nephew thinks I used to party with T-rex, et. al.

Shot

[caveman]

I voted I don't care what you do with it. It is really not a free fire zone because you are not allowed to say what you want and if you do say what you want we are either asked to change it or delete it. If two guys get into a debate over a subject and it gets a little heated then it gets locked. So it isn't really a free fire zone. My opinion trash it. People can go else where to do there political debates. I am sure there are sites out there for it.

[PS-SCUD]

Well, you are right Caveman. It certainly isn't a "Free fire zone" anymore. You can still post political and religious stuff there, but can only argue in a certain way.

[Cpt_Grogg]

but can only argue in a certain way.

*LOL* So you can't use foul language and are stuck with the use of real argumentation. What a shame! :P

[caveman]

Hell, I use foul language and they haven't said nothing to me but you just can't debate anymore and when you do they want to lock it. Hell I say let everyone have a free for all.

[GaryOwen]

Allowing the broadest scope to the language and purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, it is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words--those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality. "Resort to epithets or personal abuse is not in any proper sense communication of information or opinion safeguarded by the Constitution, and its punishment as a criminal act would raise no question under that instrument." Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 309-310. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 571-72 (1942), (footnotes omitted, emphasis added).

Freedom of speech is neither free, nor, as a legal matter, unlimited.

[Hell_Hound]

Was Chaplinsky vs. NH a landmark case of some kind, or just the first example you thought of? If it was a landmark, do you know the details?

[Sean]

Its a landmark, the statements are very familiar. It involved someone calling someone else a damned fascist. You can get all the juicy details at the link below.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/chaplinsky.html

[Ratseal]

Nice reference case - makes the second new thing that I relearned today, the first being the proper use of the word solipsistic.

And they say that video games rot the mind- HA!

[ShotMagnet]

Sweet, haven't read it all but it seems as if the state came down in favor of the responsible use of a freedom that is more privilege than right. Maybe that can be the standard to which participants in the FFZ must adhere.

Shot