Madenah Ridge: the real battle

[m1a1vha]

after playing the sce, i can say that its nothing like the real battle.

the iraqi tank brigade was actually charged with defending the Tigis River and was quite ready for the US forces as they would be fighting from very good battle positions east the river defending a bridge. however, just befor the tanks of 5th US force met these forces, the iraqis got a conflicting report about metting a "ghost US force" comming from the north (yes real funny). they naturally left their positions to meet this threat that may have been planted.

by the time the US forces reached the crossing, they easily dispatched a force of reargaurds and took the bridge. meanwhile, the Madenah Brigade relised what had happened and decided to head back. now the brigade met about a battalion of US armor that was fighting form well prapared positions that were intended for the iraqis. the iraqi force on the other hand was in the open and was killed in a cross fire while on a march. the iraqi force was not ready for the fight in any way. the battle was at night too. no prisoners were taken.

the actual terrain is not desert at all. it had trees, some bog and even civilian structures.

[Chaplain]

You may be correct. I don't have the info to dispute it.

However, if you read my "designer's notes" with that scenario. you will see that the thing my "scenario" focused on was the density of forces. It was an exercise in high-density armored warfare, and the battle of Madinah Ridge was simply used to determine the number of tanks and PCs to be involved on a piece of ground of a particular size.

I do know that the general layout of the ground I have the Iraqi forces defending is a good enough representation for a SB scenario, that during that portion of the battle the Iraqis were defending/the US was attacking, and it occurred during the early hours of daylight.

[m1a1vha]

oopse, i said Tigris while the river was the Euphrates. my mistake.

about the actual battle, the Iraqis were attacking while the US force was dug in. the terrain was not entirely desert. most of the fighting was in fact a lightly wooded built up area with some muddy areas. the iarqi force was attacking from the north east i think. a force of about a hundred T62/72 and BMP2/MTLB.

[Chaplain]

I noted my source of information in my designer's notes. If you wish to dispute with Frank Chadwick how that part of the battle occurred, I suggest you take it up with him.

[m1a1vha]

i dont like Email. you could let him talk on this forum. there are other battles in OIF that have not been disclosed as of yet (to my knowledge). apon reading some reports, coalition forces seem to have luck to spare.

[Chaplain]

Frank Chadwick is a professional wargames designer. He has published articles about GW1, including one I read in Armor magazine.

He is not involved in any way with the Steel Beasts community, so you're not likely to be able to discuss things with him in this forum.

[Hell_Hound]

I thought I recognized that name. He co-wrote Twilight 2000, didn't he?

[Poker]

i dont like Email. you could let him talk on this forum. there are other battles in OIF that have not been disclosed as of yet (to my knowledge). apon reading some reports, coalition forces seem to have luck to spare.

Are you perhaps talking of 2 separate ops ??

M1a1vha seems to be referrring to OIF, and yet I think Chaplain's scenario is from GF1 (?) - am I mistaken about this ?
or could it be that 2 battles were fought at this ridge - one in each war ?

I could see variations of the same actions - but this seems to be two diametrically opposed situations.

[DrDevice]

Chap's point is basic though: he based his scenario on a reputable source.

m1a1vha: If you dispute said source, go right ahead. What's your source? Attribution is important here. If you feel that the reality was compromised, at least provide what detail you can to correct/reinterpret the scenario.

And since mapping is always such an issue with SB, that part has to be taken for what it's worth. We are stuck with height maps that do not at all represent the areas we are modeling, nor can we easily create such.

Thank you Chap, for taking the time to research the battle, and to use what resources are available to your advantage.

[m1a1vha]

hmmm, i will have to check about GW1. but i think it was in the desert. if im not mistaken, it involved about 9 iraqi battalions and 11 US battalions. this is a while back so im dont have actual strengths, but 300 AFVs for the iraqis ia close i think. and in that battle the iraqis were defending, but they also conducted a counter attack that was dealt with very violently.

[Hell_Hound]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_sabre.htm

In ninety hours of continuous movement and combat, VII Corps achieved impressive results against the best units of the Iraqi military. Franks' troops destroyed more than a dozen Iraqi divisions, an estimated 1,300 tanks, 1,200 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 285 artillery pieces, and 100 air defense systems, and captured nearly 22,000 men. At the same time, the best Iraqi divisions destroyed only 7 MlA1 Abrams tanks, 15 Bradleys, 2 armored personnel carriers, and 1 Apache helicopter. And while killing unknown thousands of enemy troops, VII Corps lost 22 soldiers killed in action. Due to the speed of the allied advance, the VII Corps began its attack ahead of schedule early in the afternoon on the twenty-fourth. Penetrating the minefields to their front, U.S. soldiers overran Iraqi positions within a few hours. The Iraqi troops—tired, hungry, and physically and psychologically battered—began surrendering in droves. The next day the 1st Armored Division quickly crushed the Iraqi 26th Infantry Division as VII Corps pivoted to the east. The 24th Infantry Division’s heavy armor moved rapidly to exploit the initial air assaults of the 101st and 82d Airborne Divisions. Linking up with the 101st battle positions, the 24th Division moved the 200 miles north to the Euphrates River by noon on the twenty-sixth, blocking the Iraqi retreat. In the most decisive actions of the war, the VII Corps, moving directly east with three heavy divisions abreast, attacked the elite Iraqi Republican Guard units. Late in the afternoon on the twenty-sixth, the VII Corps hit elements of the Tawakalna Division in the battle of 73 Easting. In quick succession, the 2d ACR, 1st and 3d Armored Divisions, and the 1st Infantry Division smashed through the Tawakalna Division. Overwhelming the enemy with accurate tank fire and assisted by deadly Apache helicopter gunships, the VII Corps hit the Medina Division in the early afternoon of the twenty-seventh. At Medina Ridge, an attempted Iraqi ambush of the 1st Armored Division ended with the destruction of over 300 enemy tanks.

Emphasis mine. Doesn't have the details you're looking for, but it should help you with your next searches. The Adnan division of the Republican Guard also fought in that area, and IIRC the infantry division was spelled "Tawalkana". Two other RG divisions, Hammurabi and Nebuchadnezzar, didn't fight in GW1, and I can't remember the sixth one. :casstet:

[Poker]

http://www.irontigers.com/narrative.html

[Chaplain]

in that battle the iraqis were defending, but they also conducted a counter attack that was dealt with very violently.

I'm not disputing that what you described happened. I think your were mistaken, however, in your initial assumption that the action Frank Chadwick described (and upon which my scenario is based) is contradictory with the action you were describing. I think that part of the problem here is that "the" Battle of Medinah Ridge was large enough that there were multiple identifiable actions fought within it.

Remember that the Battle of the Bulge, or the Battle of Kursk, were HUGE, yet they were still described as a single battle by many historians. Therefore, veterens in the 101st Airborne tend to take issue with the way veterens of the 2nd Armored describe "the" Battle of the Bulge, when in actuallity there were many "Battles" of the Bulge.

[m1a1vha]

oopse again. i meant 9 iraqi brigades and 11 US brigades. some 3000 AFVs on the iraqi side. i will see your links.

[Poker]

CHAPLAIN -ARE/WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT GF1 ????????
OR OIF ???

m1a1vha - ARE/WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT GF1 ????????
OR OIF ???

It seems to me that Chaplains scenario recreates the attack on the iraqi defenders during GF1 as described in the Old Ironsides link above.

m1a1hva - you appeared initially to be talking about OIF - were you ?
Was there conceivably a battle of Medinah ridge in both wars ??

That's what it's looking like to me.

[Chaplain]

I thought I recognized that name. He co-wrote Twilight 2000, didn't he?

Most definitely! Frank Chadwick was one of the core game designers for GDW. He was a key player in the Europa series back in 1973, worked a lot on Traveller, did Command Decision and several spin-off miniatues games, etc.

The article he wrote for Armor magazine (the official journal for the US Army Armor branch, for those who didn't know) was basically an analysis of GW1 and how the IVIS system might have changed things if it had been fielded in time for that war.

[Chaplain]

Poker: GW1

[m1a1vha]

i did think it was OIF. now i see that it was GW1. Madenah Div did indeed participate in both wars. in both cases, they suffered a terrible defeat disbite the fact that they were iraq's best formations.