Ammunition rant - do not read

[Hell_Hound]

Everybody wants to play Leopards in MP. The reason is simple:

Recent MP scenarios have A2 and A3 ammo, which pretty much kill anything they hit. Only front-turret impacts at extreme range offer any hope of survival.

In a game where 90% of hits will kill, you want the most accurate tank, and that's the Leopard. Thus when a game starts, everybody piles onto the Leopard team, and the outnumbered M1 guys cry foul.

The solution is simple: go into all the scenarios that you've SCREWED UP by jacking up the ammo to levels never seen in any earthly conflict. Give the M1s M829, or M829A1. Give the Leopards M829 or DM53.

The result will be that Leopards score more hits, but have trouble cracking the M1's tough hide. The M1s will have trouble hitting with their suck-ass FCS, but their hits will probably destroy the suck-ass-survivability Leopard.

Both tanks will be attractive. Teams will balance out. Low-income kids will stay in school. There will be balance.

I feel better now. Rant mode off.

[OddBall]

How about giving both sides M829, DM33 or worse so people actually have to maneuver instead of sniping each others at 3km+ ?

[Bluewings]

Hell_Hound , Amen .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[PS-SCUD]

I didn't read the rant, but I agree :lol:

[Lone*star49]

...

:arrow: I came, I saw, I DIDN'T read.. yet, I agree.. :lol:


Just a small insight: I like some smaller sce's with the heavy load outs for both tanks, in that, it gives both sides, rewards for any hits, ends the game faster, and gets both sides to the AAR, where, if "really studied", the real learing happens..

Learn each battle map, learn about your own, as well as your oppenents, tactics and BP's, both for each side, that worked, and didn't.. then repeat the battle, and even, change sides to learn each tanks strengths and weakness's .. IMHO

This is like going to the firing range IMO, but with LIVE targets that think, and "change their minds" as the battlefield will, and does, become fluid..

Then apply this with the correct ammo suggested by HH, to the larger sce's with more players.



LS

[Dealer31]

Completely agree with Hell Hound. As for the M1 vs Leo debate, each tank has advantages and disadvantages. Though most people prefer the Leo, I prefer the M1 if for no other reason than I have served on it since 1988 and I feel comfortable in the (virtual) gunner's seat. I also know that if the type of ammo is more realistic in scenarios, I'll take the stronger armor every time.

[TopKick]

How about giving both sides M829, DM33 or worse so people actually have to maneuver instead of sniping each others at 3km+ ?

Then reduce visibility to lowest setting and disable TIS. Try running a Scenario with nothing but HEAT aboard. Fun!

[Hector]

hehe HH
I whole heartedly agree with you, however.. hope u dont get pissed by it...


I have been there for so long, i dont remember many games with you playing M1s. it seems that i am more rant proof. Of the many, many games that i have had to play M1 to make fair numbers in mp, is very seldom the case when i leave a game before it ends. I swallow my pride and stay there, and i say to the winners gg, and silently get stabed with the many times undeserved remarks. But then, you have more reasons to be proud than me, so I understand you. Good luck with your wishes.

[Lone*star49]

How about giving both sides M829, DM33 or worse so people actually have to maneuver instead of sniping each others at 3km+ ?

Then reduce visibility to lowest setting and disable TIS. Try running a Scenario with nothing but HEAT aboard. Fun!
...

Sounds like it, especially if the area is Tree packed.. LOL


LS

[kamov60]

The solution is simple: go into all the scenarios that you've SCREWED UP by jacking up the ammo to levels never seen in any earthly conflict.

829 is 19 years-old. A1 is 16 years-old. A2 is 11 years-old. In WWII, were the Soviets, Canadians, and Germans using 11 year-old tank ammo?

I agree A2 is overpowering. But A1 is underwhelming. Unfortunately, there is no medium tank ammo solution. If we switch to A1 most players will simply cry, sucky ammo!

The Abrams FCS is NOT suck-***. Stationary, it's every bit as good as the kitty. On the move, it can match the Leo inside 2500. Beyond 2500, the moving Leo is supreme. But does NATO doctrine teach tankers to engage at 3900 while moving?

The armor packages of both tanks are nearly identical. The Abrams turret front is maybe 5% better. Both tanks can defeat A1. A2 can defeat both tanks. The difference in armor is basically insignificant in the field.

You're spreading tank gossip you know is untrue. You running for office?

[Hell_Hound]

A1 is underwhelming? Aside from some A2 which may have been tried out in Gulf War II, it's the most powerful APFSDS round ever fired in anger in this solar system. Its ability to smash through tanks, concrete, berms and everything else earned it the nickname "Silver Bullet". The only people who would call it underwhelming are SB players like us, with our standards distorted by lots of games played with megadeath ammo.

As for the stationary Abrams - after traversing onto target and lasing, the Leopard can fire immediately whereas the M1A1 gunner has to dump the lead and (usually) correct his lay before firing. If you're jockeying on the ridgeline to complicate your opponent's shot, in the M1A1 you have to track the target for a bit to establish the automatic lead; in the Leo you just point and fire.

Whatever the armor package numbers might be, I assume you'll agree with my original point, that the M1's chance of surviving a hit in SB is considerably greater than the Leopard. If you don't, I'll be dumbfounded and wonder if we're playing the same game.

[PS-SCUD]

If we gave tanks toast for armor, then 829 would still be effective at 3000m+

Artillery could be cold slices of butter....



P.S. Actually, I killed 2 M1s at 3800m+ during TGIF 44 with M829A1. You just need to hit below the turret with a side aspect.

[Hell_Hound]

That was doubly funny because there's a running joke in the CF about the incredibly dense, cakey bread that comes in the IMPs, and how it's about the same shape as reactive armor bricks and tough enough to stop a bullet.

I just fired an M1A1's default load (30? M829A1 and 10 HEAT) at some NATO tanks, front aspect. Point of aim was center of mass for all shots, so right around the turret ring:

M1A1 target, 2560m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - tank had assorted turret damage but it was mobile, and the ammo stores were untouched.

Leopard targets, 2570-2920m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - six Leopards destroyed. One was a first-round kill; two turrets launched.

That's the kind of experience, repeated in way too many games, upon which I base the claim that Leopard's survivability in SB is substantially worse than M1A1.

[TankHunter]

That was doubly funny because there's a running joke in the CF about the incredibly dense, cakey bread that comes in the IMPs, and how it's about the same shape as reactive armor bricks and tough enough to stop a bullet.

I just fired an M1A1's default load (30? M829A1 and 10 HEAT) at some NATO tanks, front aspect. Point of aim was center of mass for all shots, so right around the turret ring:

M1A1 target, 2560m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - tank had assorted turret damage but it was mobile, and the ammo stores were untouched.

Leopard targets, 2570-2920m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - six Leopards destroyed. One was a first-round kill; two turrets launched.

That's the kind of experience, repeated in way too many games, upon which I base the claim that Leopard's survivability in SB is substantially worse than M1A1.

Then why do I kill 8 M1s with one Leo? :? :lol:

[Bluewings]

Because you 're firing A2/A3 with your Leo .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Hell_Hound]

Or you're getting side-aspect shots. I assume you're just being a smartass :) but in case you really did miss my point, it wasn't that Leopards are helpless against M1s or anything like that. My point was that, whatever Jane's or anybody else says about the relative quality of Leopard's armor package, in SB Leopards die easier than M1s against high-end tungsten/low-end dU ammo.

That ties into my original thesis, that a nice balance can be achieved with those ammunitions where Leo has a significant accuracy advantage and M1 has a significant survivability advantage.

[Chaplain]

Or, as in the battle last Sunday, TH was playing as gunner in a Leo and killing my AI-gunned tanks. My AI-gunned tanks took out some of his AI-gunned tanks, yes, but any player-gunned tank facing AI-gunned tanks will have a significant advantage. (Unless I'm that gunner. :roll: )

[Elf`]

HH, I did extensive experimentation on this. Here are the results: A1 or lower eq in Leos/M1's: numerous bitching players, A2 in both: 1 bitching player.
If we place 2-3 kill ammo in the tanks, people quit the sce midgame. If we place A2 in the tanks. The games finish, and people ONLY bitch about other stuff.
If we are to sim a real battle, then of course this ammo must be modified,(despite its being real) but in TGIF, people dont want real war, even if they say they do.. If I made a real war type sce for TGIF, folks would freak. TGIF is about the competition, not the reality of the competition, or everybody would bitch about "the ammo kills too fast", which they dont.
As to the M1 having an inferior fire control system, that is false. They M1 is superior to the Leo in Long range fire, battlesight, MG direct fire, Armor protection, and emergency firing solutions. The leo has a small advantage in top speed, a small advantage in hitting slow targets, and is suited to those who dont want to program a joystick, (if you do you know that the M1 is in fact faster in battlesight than a leo).

As to me SCREWING up the scenario's, I take personal insult. I finally get people to stop bitching and you have to chime up. I am having great trouble keeping the lid on the LP sabot's, so im gonna end this by saying,....1) Make the scenarios or STFU, 2) move to a warmer climate, 3) see a psychologist about your ammo envy..

[TankHunter]

Or, as in the battle last Sunday, TH was playing as gunner in a Leo and killing my AI-gunned tanks. My AI-gunned tanks took out some of his AI-gunned tanks, yes, but any player-gunned tank facing AI-gunned tanks will have a significant advantage. (Unless I'm that gunner. :roll: )

Chap, you only got two of my tanks because they moved because of ICM (damn that ICM and AI intelligence!), though I should have quit trying to get a Brad that I wasn’t able to hit.

[Hell_Hound]

If we place 2-3 kill ammo in the tanks, people quit the sce midgame. If we place A2 in the tanks. The games finish, and people ONLY bitch about other stuff.


I posted the rant because the night before, a game was starting up and people were piling onto the Red side. By that I mean that just about all the veteran players were pouncing on Leopard platoon-leader positions, leaving Blue to consist of newbies and a couple die-hard M1 players. One of the M1 players left in disgust because the teams were looking rather skewed.

I blame this on ammo inflation, which is a fixable issue. It just involves getting people's heads wrapped around the idea that maybe it should be hard to kill a tank, instead of having them pop like soap bubbles whenever they're shot.

[Elf`]

We have tried that innumerable times...it doesnt work. A2 produces the least bitching. I have tried combos of Ammo that produced a slight penetration advantage to the Leo. It doesnt matter..... If you cant penetrate the M1 on the first or second try, its going to kill you if you in a Leo, even if you take the same # of hits , because the Leo just isnt that tough. A1? M1 is going to kill the Leo....85% of the time, first hit....Leo? no chance.. The other combos do NOT significantly affect game play. A2 allows for a 85+% probability of a first shot kill to the front, on Either tank.... It works the best, and I dont know what else to say .

[Brun]

The leaving game, or bitching because of not popping the enemy in one shot syndrome has become worse over the years. Ammo loadouts used to be more accurate as far as what each side would have had in real life at the time. There is not as much adapting and accepting the challenge of faceing an enemy that will not die in the first shot. People took pride in being able to defeat an ememy who has better ammo and better armor

Alot of this has to do with the want of good stats in tgif battles. Facing adverse situations and overcoming them has taken a back burner to personal stats. Any situation that might hinder personal performance is now met with quiting, complaining, ect.. People do not want a challenge they want to see stats after the battle.

[PS-SCUD]

Of course people will bitch, because they are used to using A2 and A3 all the time.

Once they get used to the less lethal loads, and get used to having the manuver to kill targets, then it will be considered normal

I also think it will improve gameplay. Moving in formations will count for more, since you can lay more DU on a target. "Lone wolfs" will have less effect, and the AI will have more.

Instead of having your AI tank picked off from 3852m, it will only recieve damage.

[Bluewings]

It just involves getting people's heads wrapped around the idea that maybe it should be hard to kill a tank, instead of having them pop like soap bubbles whenever they're shot.

I second that .
-----------------------------------------
[pissed off mode on]

To the people who want A2/A3 ammo for TGIF : You 'll better be somewhere else playing something else than SB , something like Unreal or Quake where you can use the railgun and kill everytime . You wanna frag , play a fragger 's game . When are you going to understand SB is a Simulation , which means the closest to reality as it can be . If you are unable to fire with a damaged Tank , learn how to do so or play something else . I rest my case .

[pissed off mode off] .
---------------------------------------------
I wonder what those people will think after the release of Pro PE where you will be able to drive a Leo2A5 . Because it 's a fucking tough nut to crack . Will they ask for A3/A4/A5/A6 Ammo ????????

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Elf`]

Allright, Ya all have stepped up and I see a reaction....Ill do my part. Where has it been? why has nobody spoken up before now? Brun is right, I remember the old days, when the ammo was more challenging. We will see. I will tow the line, Hell hound and give it an honest effort. Next week TGIF will have a more challenging ammo loadout, and we'll stick to it for three weeks. But, if there is some kinda overwhelming reaction to it, and the 14 people who come to TGIF the last month start to drop, then what is the point?

[Horus]

i agree with the above sections about the relative realism of this simulator, if that is what it is. if leos can kill m1's unlike reality then we have reduced sb to a video game. its no wonder why with the same ammo and no armor effect why everyone or most would chose the leo. if these issues were addressed (made more realistic- simulation mode) then no live human being would chose the leo over the m1 if given a choice. i agree with elf that such unfairness on the part of the m1 teams would bring much bitching from leo players, or maybe the terrain advantages typically afforded red would off set the disadvantage?-doubtfully. the bitching from both sides will never go away. i disagree with elf's self crucifiction, its not your responsibility to make everyone happy, i doubt seriously that hh was trying to personally insult you. hh just wants a game where people don't leave in disgust, i played in the game he speaks above, i enjoyed it immensley even though it was a slaughter of sorts, and yes it took two shots from a leo to kill my m1's nearly every time.

[Hell_Hound]

I can't prove this and you might not believe me, but I didn't have TGIF in mind when I posted the rant. The idea came up during a pickup game a couple days ago.

I wouldn't be this strident about TGIF in any case, because 90% of the time I can't play in it, and because TGIF has an established playing style. No problem there. What I'm hoping and advocating is that the TGIF game style not spread out and eat all our classic scenarios, some of which are fun, exciting, challenging contests when played with tungsten.

[Poker]

You know ... way back when, when I started, the vets all took Leo's because the newbies all wanted to play M1, and there were no seats for the vets if they didn't take the Leo w/ DM33.

[Elf`]

that TGIF style play has spread is true. The only way to bring back the classics and the old ammo is to PLAY them in pickups. Enough of the TGIF players have spoken in agreement with you. I am as well, but I made the A2 stuff because, like I said, At the time, it produced the least bitching. TGIF, whether or not you included it, needs the change solidly to a more real ammo situation. I had no idea that the reaction would be that insant, loud and A1...We shall give it a shot, and if it works, the community will be better for it.

[Hell_Hound]

Spinoff questions:

What kinds of scenarios are more fun when played with tungsten?

What about the TGIF format makes it more enjoyable when played with M829A2? (This isn't a rhetorical question. I have some guesses what the answer will be, but I'd like to see people articulate it.)

My answer to #1 would be relatively small forces, high force density, close terrain and a mission requiring mobility so that one or both forces have to attack - preferably en masse. In that situation, a team which is coordinated and maneuvers to overcome threats (he's got me pinned down, can you push up that valley and get a side shot on him) should succeed. Numbers matter more because tank B1 might survive your first shot, whereupon tank B2 will come and help him gang up on you...

[Horus]

looks like were going to fighting over the m1's

[Hell_Hound]

I put "do not read" in the subject, and I get 330 reads.

Damn you, reverse psychology!

http://www.jfahy.net/damnyou.gif

[Hector]

I think these guys are right, A1 ammo should be a realistic solution. I remember a game on those across the pond sats. >enganging jerk mode< I was at about 1500 meters from a newly emerged Leopard behind a hill, I shot first and achieved a hit in the front turret and backed up before his sabot reached my position. Nevertheless the Leo was fine. I managed to connect a few more shots. i guess his system was degraded so, i always managed to avoid his sabots. Then came a second Leopard very close to the first, i forgot of the first and sent a dU pill to the second, again hiting first, and same result. I stoped wasting Georges sabots after 3 or 4 positive hits on each leo. It were 2 fine players in those leos, never showed more than the upper half of the turret Although i did not kill them, i was satisfied of being the one achieving a hit, specially on an m1 vs leo. >disengaging jerk mode< So, if players know what they do (as is the case of these two guys), Leopards will not suffer crushing defeats when facing a situation with realistic ammo.

Also, i have seen in mp games this, that i think is very important. Most long range engagements are not certain death event for the looser. Most people know how to handle those situations. Is very seldom when a player sticks around enough time (say a sabot traveling 3500 meters) in the receiving end. It usually happens when the TC in the receiving tank actually hasnt seen the treat, and in this case, then equally the damage can be done hiting in a weak spot, since the tank surely is somewhat exposed. The typical engagement in SB MP is from 250 to 2000 meters, at least on the better designed maps. Most people is manouvering these days, so this is the type of engagement we get in mp nowadays.

I think that in WW2, usual ranges were about those mentioned. Also, not all hits were lethal ones, but only damaging ones. One of the most difficult things about tracking the actual loses of the Soviets during Zitadelle, or as the Soviets call it, the battle of Kursk, was that many of the tanks that the Germans knocked out, were later recovered when the yunk yards the Panzers had left, (Germans usually had meager infantry numbers and could not actually seize the terrain gains of their panzer attacks), then repaired (many of them could be salvaged or used to repair other tanks) and put back in business.

Finally, so I can leave you all alone at last, I think DM33 IRL is surely better than the one we get here. I cant believe that a round capable of killing any tank in the sides or rear at any given range from 0 to 3950 ( the longest i tried against an M1) cannot pierce the front turret no where from inside 1000 meters, let alone farther than 1Km. But will have to settle with this, i dont want to try it in the real thing.

Ok, now giving you a break until next one.

HG

[Elf`]

:oops:

[Hell_Hound]

:?:

[Bluewings]

But, if there is some kinda overwhelming reaction to it, and the 14 people who come to TGIF the last month start to drop, then what is the point?

The point is they can fuck off to play fraggers games somewhere else Elf .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Horus]

Interesting!

[Sean]

HH, I'll start hosting pickup games with m1(a1) and Leo(dm53) loadouts. If other people dont like it, they dont have to play, but I will give it a try.

But in the past when I have done this, it bought much crying and gnashing of teeth.

[Bluewings]

I 'll join Sean . 8)

Cheers . :3starSK:

[kamov60]

I posted the rant because the night before, a game was starting up and people were piling onto the Red side. By that I mean that just about all the veteran players were pouncing on Leopard platoon-leader positions, leaving Blue to consist of newbies and a couple die-hard M1 players.

Some of the diehard M1 players disdain teamwork. That is precisely why the Leopard is suddenly in vogue. It has nothing to do with ammo or accuracy. Does that make sense?

I love the Abrams. But when I choose a tank, I pick my teammates first.

[PS-SCUD]

Teamwork isn't as effective when you don't need a fire multiplyer. If you can kill everything in one shot, you don't need a buddy next to you to put in a second one.


I just thought of something..........oooooh.........me and Stumpy will have to get together for some practice (like I"ll ever have the time.)

I just had a great idea for some drills we could play together to work on our teamwork.

[Hell_Hound]

Some of the diehard M1 players disdain teamwork. That is precisely why the Leopard is suddenly in vogue. It has nothing to do with ammo or accuracy. Does that make sense?


A fair point. But how will they learn if you don't teach them? ;)

Edit: In retrospect this is a pretty big generalization and I wish I had questioned it. There are many versions of teamwork...

[Thiefcatcher]

uhhhh, didnt even know, that SB1 has such deep differences....i am a brand new newbee to the game....the only reason I prefer the Leo2 is that I know this baby, I know the sounds and if I sit on my computer and hear the sounds i can even "smell" the tank. Thats enough reason for me :)

I guess I realy have to do a mp game soooooon....

Gretz

TC

[Ssnake]

I think I have good news. In SB Pro PE, the damage model is substantially refined (meaning that one can actually aim for weak spots, and not just hope for a favourite roll of the dice). It also means that kills will rarely being guaranteed. Sure, they will be very likely under most circumstances, but not guaranteed. That will force you more often to operate with partially damaged tanks. Maybe you will have to use tanks that are beyond other use as deception elements. Finally, think about the repair zones that may be helpful under those conditions as well.

Another point: Maybe not with the initial release, but eventually some time after, it will be possible to have two different kinds of APFSDS ammo. So you could have a loadout of (mostly) DM33 or other inferior stuff, and three silver bullets for special occasions. That should give you TGIF scenario designers some options to fine tune the balance of a mission.

Think about the Leopard 1A5 as a playable vehicle: Guaranteed kills for almost any opponent with the first hit. Why not have Bradley vs Leopard 1 battles? :twisted:

Last but not least, the randomization of the mission countdown will probably eliminate those last minute rushes. Overall, I think it's going to be a much better package for unline gaming.

[Trekker]

I put "do not read" in the subject, and I get 330 reads.

Damn you, reverse psychology!


Just like "Don't touch the big red button" never will work..

[ShermansWar]

As the "Diehard" M1 player, i take some umbrage at your remark about disdaining teamwork, Kamov.The one thing i stress, over and over is teamwork and plannning, particularly as thats whats necessary for a couple of 1 year vets and a bunch of newbies in M1s to overcome a GuNn Posse in Leos.I play M1s, and am always outnumbered, always outgunned.I'm used to looking at sides that have a cumulative 4 years experience on blue as opposed to 12-15 years experience on red.So i dont think it's for lack of teamwork. I played with you guys, and you dont say much during a mission.You Don't have to.Premission Planning consists of " Go deep". Isnt about teamwork per se, more about playing with the same team year after year.You all know what the other guy on your team is gonna do, and have spent years tweaking your plans for particular scenarios.Most of your great sniper tank players Play Leo, anyway. So please don't disparage the M1 players as disdaining teamwork, is unfair and often inaccurate.You can find a hanful of M1 players practicing and drilling everynight in TS, whilst the Leo veterans wait for a scenario of their choice and liking to manifest itself before they deign to play.

[Bluewings]

Kamov wrote : Some of the diehard M1 players disdain teamwork.

That 's bullshit :evil: . Seems you 've got balls Kamov so why not giving us names instead of "diehard M1 players ".
C 'Mon , spit it !

Bluewings , Sherman , who else ?

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Hell_Hound]

You're not a diehard. Killing you is easy. ;)

[Poker]

BW, Sherman, please step down off the crosses.

Thanks. ;)

[Bluewings]

HH : You're not a diehard. Killing you is easy.

Thanks Hound ! :) Now everybody will go after BW , the easy target , giving me even more fun ! :D
I knew you were a friend ... :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Elf`]

I dont know what this is all about. The leo is a great tank, IF you give it American Ammo, which it wouldnt have in ANY of our imaginary meeting engagements scenarios. Why dont ya'all say anything about DM53 in a Leo Vs M829 A2(or evenA1!) in an M1? Ill tell you why...The leo would be a museum piece. These aqre the Real ammo's guys? you REALLY want that? Can you say unmatched fight? The Leo we know as mighty is only so if it shoots American Ammo. You dont want realism, not really.

As to the M1 players not cooperating, that is Bull. BW does exactly what he wants when he wants, no problem. Sherman, well, we keep his heart doctor employed, dont we? Thats cooperation. We three "Diehard M1 players" are gathering steam and recruits. The Leo player, with his"but its so easy to shoot", and "but its so much faster", are going to see the light soon. The M1 is the better tank, but it is more effort to learn. The vets who play Leo all the time are either Gunn(Texico) or Canadian or European, all groups who's country uses the Leo a an MBT(cept Texas)(JOKE< TAKE LIGHTHEARTEDLY)

As to the stuff Sherm said above, most of its spot on. I dont like the "go deep " mentality. I thouroughly enjoy Shermans Planning, if only for the existence of itself. I play to be in on the teamwork. The constant effort to try and play a scenario with 4 men as well as you can play it single player. That is the goal.

I just realized something else. If you mispell Sherm, you get Sher(Cher) .... Hmmm, I smell a new character....

[TankHunter]

I dont know what this is all about. The leo is a great tank, IF you give it American Ammo, which it wouldnt have in ANY of our imaginary meeting engagements scenarios. Why dont ya'all say anything about DM53 in a Leo Vs M829 A2(or evenA1!) in an M1? Ill tell you why...The leo would be a museum piece. These aqre the Real ammo's guys? you REALLY want that? Can you say unmatched fight? The Leo we know as mighty is only so if it shoots American Ammo. You dont want realism, not really.

As to the M1 players not cooperating, that is Bull. BW does exactly what he wants when he wants, no problem. Sherman, well, we keep his heart doctor employed, dont we? Thats cooperation. We three "Diehard M1 players" are gathering steam and recruits. The Leo player, with his"but its so easy to shoot", and "but its so much faster", are going to see the light soon. The M1 is the better tank, but it is more effort to learn. The vets who play Leo all the time are either Gunn(Texico) or Canadian or European, all groups who's country uses the Leo a an MBT(cept Texas)(JOKE< TAKE LIGHTHEARTEDLY)

As to the stuff Sherm said above, most of its spot on. I dont like the "go deep " mentality. I thouroughly enjoy Shermans Planning, if only for the existence of itself. I play to be in on the teamwork. The constant effort to try and play a scenario with 4 men as well as you can play it single player. That is the goal.

I just realized something else. If you mispell Sherm, you get Sher(Cher) .... Hmmm, I smell a new character....

Elf, the M1 is a good tank, all you gotta do is put the Leo's FCS into it and you got yourself a good tank :lol:

[ShermansWar]

:wink:

[Elf`]

I dont need a cross anymore.........Little Horn has been born..... :twisted:

[Elf`]

jeez I didnt just say that did I?

[ShermansWar]

Doesnt matter. Noone knows what the hell you're talking about anyway.

[Elf`]

The uneducated might not....

[Trekker]

When i started playing SB everyone wanted to play M1. I remember we Leo players had a hard time to get a game running, since they mostly involved M1 coop or M1 vs M1.

[Sean]

People like the leo because it has the advantage when it uses american ammo. Take away the ammo advantage, and some folks will switch back to the m1. Some people may choose the leo side to be with their teammates. We played one scenario last nite where the leos had dm33 and the m1s had a1 - it was a completely different game, and we had to maneuver for flank and rear shots instead of forming a line on each side and blasting each other head on. As far as the teamwork issue, it depends on what your concept of "teamwork" is. It may not necessarily entail listening to the plan for several minutes, and then going off to do whatever you want regardless. Or some of the other stuff I have seen/heard over the last several months. :evil:

SB is a tank sim/video game. Lets have fun with it!

[Lone*star49]

...

Informative post there Elf..

Just let me remind all you "team praticing players" (whomever), that some VU's do drills once, twice, or more per week, other VU's drill, as they have since the beginning of SB.. "on the battlefield"..

To say that they take Leo's only, is a hoot, in that they can take either tank and get the job done, but, when one see's 2 Vets comin in that will 99% of the time, take M1's, kinda makes sinse, if that VU, drills only.. on the active Head to Head battlefield.. that there may be more of them than you.

Bottom line is, take such battles, as in real wars/battles, that strenghts are not always gonna be even, and its up to the lesser of the two, to make adjustments for this, along with, "learn" from what went wrong, where, by whom, for what reason, and learn by it..

When one learns of ones enemys tactics, there-in lies the reward of Honor in defeat..


The world is not fair.. but ya all have the ability to learn from others mistakes, and thru others methods, that work..

Does this not apply to all areas of life, whether in peace, or war ?


Two of my favorite songs by ex Eagles band, lead singers, Don Henley, are:

~ Get over it ~ and ~ In a New York minute ~

There's something to be said about the value of music's message, in that, it sooths the soul, and gets one's mind, or heart, "with the flow"..



That's why we remember the words and meleody's.. same here in SB land of difference..




LS

[Poker]

LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!

OK, enough of the my tanks bigger than yours BS.
So, is the agreement to see about playing scenarios w/ realistic ammo ?
Yes Elf, that includes non US ammo in the Leo's ... I started playing Leo's w/ DM33, and I can do it again. :twisted:
Pick your preferred tank, and let's play.
maybe after a few scenarios we can revisit the topic and see where we stand.
OK ?

One thing though - I would leave TGIF as is ... let's change ammo's on other sce's and see how that goes before messing w/ TGIF anymore.

And Sherman, I just wanted to nip any vitriole in the bud. ;)
Kam's comment was tacky ... but it was bait you could have just passed on. ;)

Elf ... if I'm correct in what you are referring to, just go ahead and follow in Custer's footsteps ... think BIG ! :)

[Hell_Hound]

When i started playing SB everyone wanted to play M1. I remember we Leo players had a hard time to get a game running, since they mostly involved M1 coop or M1 vs M1.

I jumped on the M1 when I was first learning the game, simply because I had some vague idea what it was like (having read a few books with M1s in them). The Leopard was some alien thing from Mars, and I assumed it would take blunt trauma and months of adjustment to learn how to use it.

I'm excited but nervous about using the game's default ammos, because there's a pretty substantial gap...but like Poker said, I learned that way and I can do it again.

And, as Poker said: :twisted:

PS, for the TGIF team: this is from memory so it could very well be wrong, but isn't KE-WA2 just slightly worse than M829A2? If you want to try gradually weaning your players off the megadeath ammunition, the KE-W rounds might be the way to go.

[Trekker]

I know what you'r talking about HH, been there..

As for my opinion, i kind of like the fast, turretblowing games that M829A2 provides.

:thelmuts:

[Hell_Hound]

I know what you mean. It's a different game when you're hammering the hell out of each other and surviving. It's especially exciting when your armor defeats a round and you're able to keep fighting.

Churchill was obviously thinking of SB when he said "There are few things as exhilarating as being shot at without result." :)

[Elf`]

The KE-W round way I think is the way to go as well HH. It is an easy wean, and it has to be done to get people into the SB2 vein(2 MONTHS FOLKS).
No, Im not going to Change TGIF, i Am going to evolve it just a hair. I dont think I would go beyond just a slight adjustment in the ammo, keeping the potential of firestorm in mind. I dont think it would serve TGIF if we went full scale to the reality side, but a touch of reality is in order, as well as addressing the necessity of BRINGING BACK THE ART OF MANUEVER. I dont like the tank quake aspect, but Ive learned to fight with it. What bothers me is the younger folks, like TH, who basically have seen nothing but. Those are the guys I wanna get doing serious manuever. Sherm, I know what yer thinkin,.."He's forcing us to play a certain way", but im not. This is getting the community ready for SB Pro, and its time, so relax and pull out your manuever FM's folks. There will still be lots of turretblowing......

[Elf`]

So, is the agreement to see about playing scenarios w/ realistic ammo ?
Yes, definetely

Pick your preferred tank, and let's play.
Bring it on you,...you, .....Leo drivin Motrocycle enthusiast you......:P


maybe after a few scenarios we can revisit the topic and see where we stand.
OK ?
Yes, definetely


One thing though - I would leave TGIF as is ... let's change ammo's on other sce's and see how that goes before messing w/ TGIF anymore.

I am going to adjust it just slightly, we will try KE-W2 and DM53 for 3 weeks, if it fails, we go back to A2 all around.


Elf ... if I'm correct in what you are referring to, just go ahead and follow in Custer's footsteps ... think BIG ! :)
I am thinkin BIG,....who's Custer? :P

[ShermansWar]

:)

[Bluewings]

Elf : who's Custer?

"Custer was a pussy ." (We were Soldiers)

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Poker]

Yeah, you're right ... why bother. :roll:

[Elf`]

Jeez, Sherm, relax

[Bluewings]

KE-W (0/1/2) Tungsten rounds are better performers vs ERA Kontact 5 Tank equipped , like the T-80 . DU rounds tend to shatter too easily .

A lot of people around (me included) will have to seriously work out how to fire with a damaged Tank for Pro PE , I tell you . I even go as far as saying some people will not play Pro PE but stay on SB1 instead because of the realism of PE .

We 'll all see a separation between the Men from the boys . :twisted:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Lone*star49]

1. > As the "Diehard" M1 player, i take some umbrage at your remark about disdaining teamwork, Kamov.

2.> The one thing i stress, over and over is teamwork and plannning, particularly as thats whats necessary for a couple of 1 year vets and a bunch of newbies in M1s to overcome a GuNn Posse in Leos.

3.> I play M1s, and am always outnumbered, always outgunned.I'm used to looking at sides that have a cumulative 4 years experience on blue as opposed to 12-15 years experience on red.So i dont think it's for lack of teamwork.

4.> I played with you guys, and you dont say much during a mission.You Don't have to. Premission Planning consists of " Go deep". Isnt about teamwork per se, **more about playing with the same team year after year.You all know what the other guy on your team is gonna do, and have spent years tweaking your plans for particular scenarios.

5.> Most of your great sniper tank players Play Leo, anyway.

6.> So please don't disparage the M1 players as disdaining teamwork, is unfair and often inaccurate.

7.> You can find a hanful of M1 players practicing and drilling everynight in TS, whilst the Leo veterans wait for a scenario of their choice and liking to manifest itself before they deign to play.
...

Sherman, my post was not directed at you or anyone personally, cept for Elf, and if I read my first line correctly.. it's in agreement.

It was just an overall view of this post thread, post replys, the complaints, etc.. and if anyone is having troubles, they should try and take the view I pointed out, having taking the long road, you, and others are still on.

It just, if used, will cut down the drive.. but take it as you want.

Below, I think you will see why:
................................

1. Agreed, in that, most newbies, and green tankers go M1, so ya have to take them to battle and do the best ya can with them, and to a seasoned vet.. it don't appear as teamwork.. that I know, but someone has to train them up.. it's called payback, for those that trained you, and it's just your turn right now.. And they will have their turns in time.. as I did.

2. YEP.. no doubts here about your using teamwork.. and its hard work, till ya have battled with the same people in Victorius battles over and over, till that kind of record comes around, it will seem and be hard work.

3. Agreed, and as I said, garner what worked and what did not.. along with answer #1

4. Agreed, and as you should know, a "classic scenario" is gonna be played over and over.. they have a life of their own, cause the winners have shown their cards, making for that maps next battle, more of a struggle/battle for them.. **This I know is true, as you say, cause I have taken most of these teams and maps to battle many times, and learned a ton, and give them a run for their lives.. one way or another.. with the help of others along with some newbies that cost ya 4 tanks or more, and mainly say.. WTF!! over and over.. but, most of us traveled in those same tracks ourselves once upon a death or kill. Just take the wealth of information from the Victor.. be it you or them..

5. Absolutely the truth.. that's been my read over the last 4 years.

6. Agreed 100%, and you know why..

7. Yep, they know most of the Classic Scenarios and, they are not wrong about how good those battlefields are, cause they can, and do, offer many different venues of offence and defence, along with being able to look a a new map and make plans accordingly.. They use that approach, called "style" that brings fluid, fast movements, suprise, shock.. etc.. And that's how and who taught me for my first 2 yrs, checking my mailbox for my ass to be mailed back to me, day after day, until.. as most of you all should, and will, become, "the sleeper has awoken".. LOL


Don't view everything as an attack on ya.. cause whatever you said about my post, I am sure the shoe doesn't fit me for whatever that term you used, means.


LS

[Hector]

Some of the diehard M1 players disdain teamwork. That is precisely why the Leopard is suddenly in vogue.
I love the Abrams. But when I choose a tank, I pick my teammates first.

the word some should be taken into account here.

Now, of both tanks, i think that, if both tanks are different to their real life brothers, the differences that make them short of real, clearly favor M1s (i.e. shot traps, posibility of slightly overregarded ammo). Leos only suffer negative differences, (poor ammo, poor hull protection)

Now, lets say M1 are in effect the best performers of the world, and no living christian on earth will ever have a chance of beating them. neither will aliens as Independence Day 04 clearly showed. Even in the times when DM53 ammo was default for leopards, the M1s seldom were the kings of the battlefiled only because of its Sb boost. Usually had to do more with players capabilites.

Sherman, while i agree that many M1 players are very good team workers, and that not all leo players are team players, i think you are entirely understimating our capabilities, and that is a mistake reflecte in battle field. we have spent some 3 or 4 years playing this sim, and is not only about snipers, it is about knowing our mates capabilities and weakneses, and about how to exploit the former and diminish the later.

But i understand some americans, specially the ones thinking that the leo does not have a chance against the m1 in real life, also implying that mexican tankers in real life cant shoot shit. Well, I hope we dont have to test that, but, in the mean time, plz :mrgreen: , dont change that attitude, is very useful for us in the mp zone. I really hope the world becomes as you guys think it must be :roll:

[Wolfman]

You are assuming that DM53 sucks in real life.. It would appear that the performance of this round has been underestimated quite a bit in SB.

[Hector]

wolfy

if u are replying to me then i did not make myself clear. i do think dm ammo, even 33, should be better irl

Hector

[Bluewings]

Check That : http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm

Then : "120 mm KE cartridge DM63

The DM63 cartridge from Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH is based on the already fielded DM53. The essential difference between the two cartridges lies in the propulsion unit. Instead of a conventional propulsion unit, the DM63 is the first 120 mm high-performance KE round to be equipped with a temperature-independent propulsion system (TIPS), based on SCDB technology. Apart from temperature-independent performance data, the design of the propulsion unit of the DM63 was aimed not so much at achieving an improvement in performance but instead at attaining a distinct reduction in erosion while maintaining the same level of performance. To achieve this objective in optimum fashion, the one-piece combustible case was modified with respect to the erosion-reducing characteristics of its combustion gases.

The intended v0 of 1,650 m/s (L44) is attained with a pure bulk powder charge featuring a mass of approx. 8.45 kg and a maximum gas pressure of approx. 545 MPa. Taking into account the cartridge conditions arising under typical operational circumstances in climate zone A3, the temperature performance in the L44 develops as shown below.

The span of v0 and pressure throughout the entire temperature range is less than 60 m/s and 60 MPa. At low temperatures, the gain in performance is particularly noticeable, as is the avoidance of unnecessarily high pressure and performance levels at high temperatures with respect to terminal ballistics.

Apart from the balanced temperature performance, the DM63 displays the following advantages:

- Useable in all Leopard 2 weapon systems, A4 through A6
- Deployable at temperatures ranging from -46°C to +71°C (climate zones C3-A1)
- Under all operating conditions, gas pressure levelsthroughout the temperature range are less than 575 MPa
- Significantly lower erosion, especially at higher temperatures
- Identical terminal ballistic performance at reference v0
- Improved terminal ballistic performance at low temperatures
- Greater first-shot kill probability
- Better LOVA characteristics."

source : http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=2457&query=DM63


Simply because : As it stands, the DM53 is not qualified for use in the more extreme (A1) climatic conditions found in the Middle East, and there may therefore be a case for the collaborative development between Rheinmetall and ROD of a new IM (insensitive munitions)-compliant KE round, suitable for worldwide deployment.


German DM53 fired from L55 gun = Estimated 810mm RHAe@2000m

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Horus]

I feel like i'm in a Snoopy cartoon, bawah, bwah, bwah, abwah, bawah ba!

[Bluewings]

I 've got something in commun with Sherman and Dejawolf ....

I like to spread facts . 8)

Cheers . :3starSK:

[ShermansWar]

No hector, i wasnt underestimating the leo players or their capabilities, i have no doubt you all perform well in M1s on a scenario noone has ever seen before.
I am really rather amazed however, my refusal to accept kamovs position has drawn this kind of response.

[ShermansWar]

deleted

[Lone*star49]

You are assuming that DM53 sucks in real life.. It would appear that the performance of this round has been underestimated quite a bit in SB.
...

DM53 rocks IMO, as when we traded sides and ammo, and let the Leo Team take our A2ammo, and we took their DM 53.. nearly every shot killed first hit, or severly damanged the Leo first hit, and the second was sweet death shot..

No complaints about DM 53 from what I have seen :shock:


LS

[dejawolf]

i've gotten quite accustomed to aiming for the tracks or gun barrel on the heavier armoured tanks in pro PE, and then spray the sights with coax while reloading.
for this tactic, the M1 is actually the best. with the leo, you have to be in emergency mode to fire the coax while reloading.

[Elf`]

Efficiency is the best thing in the World.....................Amen

[NEpi]

if i may conclude:
1. "silver bullets" are somewhat fun, but they should reign supreme.
2. having "real ammo" will make the M1s stronger than the Leos
3. using A2 will make Leos stronger than M1s.
4. personal stuff.

so why use real ammo configuration OR A2? why not give the M1s ammo that will be weak enough not to penetrate the Leo on every occasion? as long as the Leo ammo can't penetrate head-on from 3km+ range, the FCS won't make such a big impact.

although we like our video game realistic (as hell), it doesn't mean playing pseudo-historical scenarios is more real than anything else. the engine is still the same.

btw, i'm an M1 diehard too, and i die pretty easy in it. easier than BW, anyway.

[Poker]

Poker wrote:
Yeah, you're right ... why bother.

So who's hanging on his cross now?

No cross here .... just resignation that some things never change.
I've seen and heard enough.

[kamov60]

As the "Diehard" M1 player, i take some umbrage at your remark about disdaining teamwork, Kamov.

HH said the Leopard is "fragile." I was offended. It's simply not true.

Sherman, please don't be offended. My post was not directed at you. I am the world's greatest diehard M1 lover. I challenged the honor of Blue team. You responded with facts and logic. Well done!

My friends prefer Leos. It leaves me with little choice. I can join them, or play with others who don't really want me around. But we are trying to take turns joining the "bad guys." So we can avoid a Crips versus Bloods mentality in SB.

[kamov60]

That 's bullshit :evil: . so why not giving us names instead of "diehard M1 players ".

There is a Blue player named "Leonard." Leonard likes to command a full company. Leonard has never passed me a tank, PC, or trooper, ever. Not in planning, middle of game, or end of game. I have never seen Leonard pass anything to anyone. If three players are sharing charlie company, Leonard pretends not to see the imbalance.

Did the Battling Bastards of Bastogne share weapons and ammo? Or was it every man for himself? Bluewings, would you describe Leonard as a teamplayer?

[Poker]

Actually, to "Leonards" defense ......... He has dramatically improved in his command skills, and his distribution of forces ... I'd call into question your statement as of lately, Kam.
What used to be is what used to be ... I think things now are different on "Leonards" part. ;)

[Bluewings]

Kamov60 (or Kam for friends :wink: ) You made a valid point , but as Sean said "Leonard" as changed quite a bit recently .
And I wonder if it 's not Sherman 's fault .... :lol:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Elf`]

Kamov, Have I even ever played on your team? I dont remember if I have..I furthermore dont remember ever even hearing your voice, let alone some "urgent " request for vehicle cuts. Maybe this is indicative of the impression you made. Stands to reason I gave you nothing then doesnt it? I dont even remember having been shot by you before, although I do remember substantial sightings of you in AAR as a target.

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Leonard

Elf ;)

[Wolfman]

You are assuming that DM53 sucks in real life.. It would appear that the performance of this round has been underestimated quite a bit in SB.
...

DM53 rocks IMO, as when we traded sides and ammo, and let the Leo Team take our A2ammo, and we took their DM 53.. nearly every shot killed first hit, or severly damanged the Leo first hit, and the second was sweet death shot..

No complaints about DM 53 from what I have seen :shock:


LS

DM53 should equal or surpass M829A2 level of performance (based on current public info), which it doesn't in SB.

[ShermansWar]

NP kamov.I just wanted to make a point.

[kamov60]

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Leonard ;)

Wow, I am completely freakin embarrassed. I was not refering to Elf. "Leonard" is a fictional alias I picked out of a hat. Hell, I don't even know Sean's real name.

My deepest, deepest apologies to Elf for my stupidity.

[Elf`]

NP, Kam, honest(funny!!) mistake

[smogover]

As someone that loves playing this great sim of ours in single player mode (& has finally got a PC ready for the new Pro PE version).... I am amased at how you multi player guys constantly seem to be having a go at each orher.

A question.... do you actually think about how many of your platoon mates you may be upsetting when you answer someone else's angry post.... ? My guess is not. & I know that it is not because you have these evil bones in thy bodies.... but more because the rush of thy blood takes over :)

Anyway.... just wanted to remind you all that the world is beautiful.... cause the great god of PE is coming soon I hear (hopefully :twisted: ) & so.... feel free not to get so upset when someone answers a question in a way you would have prefered that they didn't :P

Have fun,
Captain Smog

[Bluewings]

Wolfman wrote :DM53 should equal or surpass M829A2 level of performance (based on current public info), which it doesn't in SB.



Not quite exact .

US M829A3 120mm DU 960mm at 2km (200x)

US M829A2 120mm DU 750mm at 2km (1994)

US M829A1 120mm DU 610mm at 2km (1991)

US M829 120mm DU 540mm at 2km (1988)

US M827 120mm DU 450mm at 2km (1986)

US Olin GD120 120mm tungsten 520mm at 2km

US/Egyptian KEW-A2 120mm tungsten 660mm at 2km
and :
German 120mm DM-13 380mm at 2km (1980s)

German 120mm DM-33 550mm at 2km (1987)

German 120mm DM-43A1/US KEW A1 560mm at 2km (1994)

German 120mm DM-53 tungsten 650mm at 2km (1996)

German 120mm/L55 DM-53 810mm at 2km (2001)

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Gunfighter]

Each of the SB Tanks have their own advantages and disadvantages. The true test of a Good SB MPlayer is that they take into account to maximize the advantages while hiding or minimizing their weaknesses.

Take for examples;
1) M1's 3x Daysight: With a wide view you can detect the tell tale signs of a moving vehicle instead of being stuck with the Leo's Only tunnel view at 10x.
2) Leo's V12 Diesel Starts and Stops quickly vs. the M1's Gas Turbine. But the V12 you can hear over the ridge or in the Forest. The M1's Turbine takes a longer time to start, but you can literally "sneak" up on a Leo and send Him to Arallu!
3) The M1's 50 cal is useful to dispatch infantry at a distance. The gunner can keep searching for targets while the AI CC slay Infs at a distance. The Leo has the Commander's Peri which can search one direction while the gunner searches another.
4) For Hell Hound, FCS. Granted the Leo FCS is much easier to shoot with. But on Emergency or GAS, the M1's is much more intuitive. GPSight damage is a common battlefield hazarrd. (Especially when my M1 is hit multiple times at long range with A1, A2 or even A3 ammo).

I have enjoyed TGIF alot, although the past months I could not play it due to RLT. Team work and Cowboyism evident in past games have been many and great. Some IVU teams like Lonestar's Rangers acted like Teen Titans. Some acted like the Powder Puff Girls (and they were the most fun to be in!)
In the end; I believe that if you give a Nikatorki, Dagger or an AA a playable T55, T-72 or Leo; your death will just take a little longer...

[Elf`]

ya know the funny thing? All this is going to fall by the wayside when everybody discovers how much fun the 25mm Bushmaster on the Brad is,..............

[Bluewings]

and ... " Brad Gunner (Player) to TC (AI) , TOW on the waaaay !! " :nukem:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Ratseal]

Smog - I totally agree. The tiffs that so many promising threads turn into is a major turn off, and a contributing factor to my reduction in forum participation - I still cruise by every week or so.

Elf - I agree here too, the player occupied gunner positions in the Brad and HMMWV are going to dramatically change the gameplay - I have already seen this in Pro - but, it will simply multiply the number of (relatively) silly arguments.

[Wolfman]

German DM53 fired from L55 gun = Estimated 810mm RHAe@2000m


My point exactly, DM53 in SB is a big underperformer (670mm RHA at 0m).

Wasn't refering to you Hector. :wink:

[HighTower]

Good thing it didn,t say "DO NOT RESPOND"

[Hell_Hound]

HH said the Leopard is "fragile." I was offended. It's simply not true.


Are you talking about the real Leopard, or the SB Leopard?

If the real, then I agree it's probably not true.

If the SB version...my first bit of empirical evidence is a few pages back, awaiting your rebuttal. :)

[ShermansWar]

He said Empirical. Heh heh, heh heh.

[Bluewings]

Wolf , the Leo 2A4 gun isn 't a L55 gun .

The estimated penetration is : German 120mm DM-53 tungsten 650mm at 2km (1996)

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Wolfman]

Wolf , the Leo 2A4 gun isn 't a L55 gun .

The estimated penetration is : German 120mm DM-53 tungsten 650mm at 2km (1996)

Cheers . :3starSK:

Ahh didn't see the "L55" part, however 650mm is still higher than in SB.

[Elf`]

Either way, get used to DM53 in the Leo and KE-WA1 in the M1. Get out your manuever books......

[kamov60]

M1A1 target, 2560m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - tank had assorted turret damage but it was mobile, and the ammo stores were untouched.

Leopard targets, 2570-2920m: 30 sabot hits, 8 HEAT hits - six Leopards destroyed. One was a first-round kill; two turrets launched.

Are you saying the Leopard is 600% more vulnerable than the M1? Your experiment is invalid unless we know where exactly the Leo was penetrated.

Also, where exactly is our disagreement? Can we agree the M1/Leo can easily be penetrated in the rear/sides?

Can we agree A1 will never penetrate the M1/Leo turret front?

So what is the issue? Are you saying the M1 has better hull front armor than the Leo?

[Bluewings]

Kamov60 :Are you saying the M1 has better hull front armor than the Leo?

Yes , I think he is .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Hell_Hound]

Are you saying the Leopard is 600% more vulnerable than the M1? Your experiment is invalid unless we know where exactly the Leo was penetrated.

I'm saying that, for thirty-eight hits, at similar ranges and with the point of aim controlled to the best of my ability, the effect on target was 1 damage for M1A1, and 6 destroyed, 1 damaged for Leo2A4.

I claim that a difference that large strongly suggests that Leo2A4 has a survivability disadvantage compared to M1A1. However, because it's just barely possible that all 38 of my shots at the M1A1 hit the turret front while all my Leopard shots hit the hull, or something, I'll repeat the experiment and record the points of impact off the AAR.

Edit: however, if you trust me to normalize my points-of-aim for the two shoots, it shouldn't be necessary to check the penetration points. If a shooter is more likely to hit Leo's more-vulnerable front hull, then that's a fair point against the Leo's survivability.

Also, where exactly is our disagreement? Can we agree the M1/Leo can easily be penetrated in the rear/sides?

I would agree that both tanks are much more vulnerable from the side and rear, and while I suspect the Leo might have worse survivability in those aspects, I'm not sure enough to make any claims right now.

Our disagreement is that I called the Leopard "fragile" (I don't specifically remember using that word, but quite possibly I did) compared to the M1A1. By that I mean "less able to take a hit and remain functional and/or undamaged".

Edit: The real disagreement is that I didn't care for the "spreading tank gossip you know is untrue" remark, and I'm determined to grind that accusation to dust by rigorously defending my position.


Can we agree A1 will never penetrate the M1/Leo turret front?


No, I'll bet it can at point-blank range, especially on the Leo. I'll also predict that at ranges where A1 has a negligible chance of penetrating the M1A1 turret front, it will have a greater chance of penetrating the Leopard turret front. Not only will I predict that, I'll do some tests and let you know what I find.

So what is the issue? Are you saying the M1 has better hull front armor than the Leo?

No. I'm saying that the M1A1 has better front-aspect survivability than the Leo.

For all of the above, I'm talking about the SB versions of the two tanks.

[Hell_Hound]

Ok, second run of Armortest.sce:

M1A1 firing M829A1 rounds at target tanks. Range was relatively close (inside 1500m) so I was able to put the point of aim on the mantlet. In the AAR, I verified that all shots hit the turret front (and they all did).

Leopard targets:
#1 - 1410m - destroyed on 6th hit
#2 - 1420m - destroyed on 10th hit
#3 - 1410m - destroyed on 1st hit
#4 - 790m - destroyed on 1st hit
#5 - 770m - destroyed on 2nd hit
#6 - 740m - destroyed on 2nd hit
#7 - 1390m - destroyed on 2nd hit
#8 - 1400m - destroyed on 3rd hit
#9 - 1420m - destroyed on 1st hit

Just looking at the two long-shot groups, 23 rounds killed six Leopards.

M1A1 targets:
#1 - 1410m - survived 28 hits. Gunner, radio, LRF, TIS, computer, stab and hydraulics were out.

I love the Leopard.
But I claim, based on the above and on my experience, that compared to M1A1 it has a glass jaw. :(

[gtrof]

Speaking of ammo, does anyone know if the STAFF round will be in SBPro PE? Sorry to go off topic.

[Chaplain]

Not likely - Ssnake doesn't seem keen on having stuff in SB that was never actually fielded.

[gtrof]

The STAFF was never fielded?

[Hell_Hound]

Nope. The project was scrapped; I don't think they ever produced a prototype they were happy with.

[Trekker]

Not even XM943?

Long time since i heard anything about it..

[kamov60]

Damnit HH, I think you are mostly correct. With A1, I cannot penetrate the Leo turret front at 2500m. However, I can easily penetrate the TF at 1000m. I can also penetrate the M1 at 1000m, but it seems to require 3/4/5 hits. I'm happy to concede the M1 has better turret armor, and can withstand some short-range A1 hits that would normally kill a Leopard.

When I said neither turret could be penetrated I may have been thinking of dm53, my bad. Be wary of small survey samples. At 2500m my gunner did the shooting. In one instance the Leo was killed with a single hull hit. In another, the Leo survived 30 sabots and 10 heat. So the range of possibilities is large. I'm guessing a proper statistical analysis would require 200-1000 results. Side and top penetrations should automatically be excluded. I favor not counting hull kills unless we can prove the M1 hull is more effective. I noticed shooting at groups increased the possibility of side hits. I recommend a single target.

Thank you for setting the record straight. The sim is very educational. After 4+ years of community experience, I prefer we speak of the game with cold, hard facts, and not murky generalizations.

Wanna delve into A2? Is it equally effective against both tanks or is it less effective against the M1?

I have no problem with A1/A2. But I think 829/A3 are bad choices for MP.

[Hell_Hound]

Agreed, A3 not only makes a mockery of all armor, but its noticeably-greater velocity makes it quite a bit easier to hit moving targets.

Now that I've got the scenario created, I can easily do some similar tests with M829A2; we can organize the results and maybe come up with a new resource to help scenario designers.


Be wary of small survey samples.

Oh, I am. That's why most of my statements are relatively conservative - but even with a smallish sample like the above, I'd say there's a statistically significant difference in the dead-tank frequency. I can re-learn how to do a chi-square check on the numbers, but only if someone really, really insists. :)

I noticed shooting at groups increased the possibility of side hits. I recommend a single target.

Unless you have a gung-ho experimentalist who carefully aligned himself with each tank's hull, and timed his shots so they'd strike while the gun was right around twelve o'clock. ;)

Test results with A2 coming soon - but not tonight. I'm gonna turn my brain off and play NASCAR. :)

[Ratseal]

<residual MBA>
AFAICR - a statistically rigorous and significant population of samples of the dependent variable requires a value of >499.
</residual MBA>

So, using The Book, one would have to shoot at 500 Leo's, or perhaps, shoot 500 rounds, or, well you get it.

However, having been wacked far more frequently in a Leo than the M1, which has forgiven my inept driving by keeping me alive more often than I deserved, I tend to go with the 'eggshell armed with a hammer' position. I know the Leo isn't that fragile, but it often pays to operate as though it were.

[Poker]

Alas, it seems to me that the most fragile of the two is whichever one I'm playing in ! :(

[NEpi]

you don't need 500+ data points at all. the chi-square test is suitable for such small samples, as long as they're randomly produced (which they are)

[chrisotto]

Don't forget the df.

[Elf`]

Man, Ya'all have WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on ya hands. Why dont you examine what makes asphalt so effective for roads? We have been over this exhaustively Gentlemen. 829A2 is the on "SBfair" ammo. All the others show what anincredible paper tissue box the Leo is, and what an impenatrable beast the M1 is. These experiments lead toward "equality" for two markedly different tanks, thats all. 829A2 kills an M1 85-90% first shot, Leo 98% first shot. Its the best we can do as far as equality, because THE TWO TANKS ARENT EQUAL .

[Lone*star49]

Man, Ya'all have WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on ya hands. Why dont you examine what makes asphalt so effective for roads? We have been over this exhaustively Gentlemen. 829A2 is the on "SBfair" ammo. All the others show what anincredible paper tissue box the Leo is, and what an impenatrable beast the M1 is. These experiments lead toward "equality" for two markedly different tanks, thats all. 829A2 kills an M1 85-90% first shot, Leo 98% first shot. Its the best we can do as far as equality, because THE TWO TANKS ARENT EQUAL .
...

I agree here with you as far as the ammo goes, for both tanks, and on the other hand, I see what the others are looking for in, and of, the use of lesser ammos..

1. Tank surviablity (front hull/ turret) first or second hits

2. Use of, and dealing with GAS, and Emergency Procedures, including, retreating that tank, and trying to save it, by buying it some time.. etc.

3. Biggest Point: Usage of manuvers, ie, flanking, getting behind, or closing ranges, along with usage of Wingman human gunners, etc..

However, IMO, for SB1, this is all fairly mute with SB Pro PE just around the corner, with its more accurate measuring features for all units, along with manned units, ie.. Brad, etc. that will be a "real threat" in the field, along with tunning down the AI eyes for both long shots, and spotting.


Gentlemen, look to the future, and learn from the past..


LS

[Ssnake]

And the best is, when SB Pro PE is out with its new damage model, you'll have to start discussing this all over again. :p

:mrgreen:

[Lone*star49]

...

Hellhound, I'd be very curious, in that the following happened to me in the same sce. same location in both tanks, and I would (cause I don't know how to run the mission editor) be very curious what you find out running the two examples below:
.............................

All shots by me/you in turret ring area:

(me/you in) M1 tank with A1ammo, fire at Leo in front hull to front hull engament at 1000m, you getting off the first shot, and hit Leo in left (right as you look at it) front turret ring area, and then let the AI Leo hit you in M1 front turret/hull with A2ammo..

My M1 was killed first shot, after I hit Leo, which showed "little damage" in AAR


Then, same distance,1000m, you/me in Leo with A2ammo, front hull to front hull, shoot the M1 first, and let M1 with A1ammo, shoot you in front hull/turret..

My Leo was killed first shot, and M1 showed little damage in AAR
...............................................


Then, in Leo with A2ammo, at 700m, shoot an M1 in left flank turret.. which I took 7 shots before M1 got manned, and turned and fired with A1ammo, and killed my Leo first shot.. while Leo was at full speed getting behind M1 and both fired shots, 8 from Leo in total, 1 from M1 to front left hull.

In AAR, it showed M1 "heavy damage" with 8th hit


I would like to know what your results would show..


Thanks..


LS

[PS-SCUD]

And the best is, when SB Pro PE is out with its new damage model, you'll have to start discussing this all over again.

Naw, we can just handicap the SB1 vets by making them play in Leo 1A5s against the new guys.

[Poker]

And the best is, when SB Pro PE is out with its new damage model, you'll have to start discussing this all over again.

Naw, we can just handicap the SB1 vets by making them play in Leo 1A5s against the new guys.

Hah....... I'm waiting for the future update when they model that stalwart of the Swiss Army ....... the bicycle !!!!!!!!!! :shock:
Yes, M1's will tremble with the fearfull crew shaking at the sight of 100 bicycle riding Swiss troopers rolling down from the Alps !!!!
Fear them, for they can run over your toes and make you have to retreat for bandaids !!!!!!!
MUUUUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted:
YOODELLLLLLLLLAAAAAAYYYEEEEEHHHOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TankHunter]

And the best is, when SB Pro PE is out with its new damage model, you'll have to start discussing this all over again.

Naw, we can just handicap the SB1 vets by making them play in Leo 1A5s against the new guys.

Well if I can still kill an M1 at 4000m than I will have no probs with that idea. :lol:

[DrDevice]

THE TWO TANKS ARENT EQUAL .

Exactly Elf....so why in the hell give them equal ammo, hoping it will somewhat balance them? If you want equal: play the same %^$ing tanks! Yout TC won't ever misidentify a target, so fratricide is minimal. It may take players a fraction of a second longer to ID a target, but with Borg spotting on the F5 view, I really doubt that will be an issue either.

"SB Fair" ammo is SB BS. We should accept the fact that the game is inherently unbalanced from the get go: the map is not exactly equal. The tanks are not exactly equal. The players are not exactly equal. That's the FUN of it. Facing a challenge and overcoming it.

If players can't face those challenges gracefully, I don't want to play with them. They can take their whining elsewhere and get over it. It is laudable to try and please everyone, but I find it impractical and flat out boring. But that's just me.

This argument is an elder one. It amazes me that it gets ramrodded in 3 different directions:
- scenario designers trying to defend either the "equal ammo produces less bitching" or the "Pseudo realism is more entertaining" theories
- the numbers guys with the "these are the real penetration/RHA/eRHA numbers vs. the "these are the SB effective penetration/RHA/eRHA numbers"
- the "righteous" posters who are offended by or disagree with any or all of the above.

HH made a point: that high performance ammo devalues some aspects of play. Ammo/Armor overmatch is tough, because we can adjust the ammo, but not the armor.

The rest is just people getting bent out of shape because they feel HH is attacking "their" way of playing, or "their" tank, or "their" team, or whatever. Generalizations about Leo players or M1 players, or left handed players are just that: generalizations. Stop assuming that someone is referring to you unless you are specifically named. This sure is a thin-skinned lot of forumites.

:casstet:

Oh please is it Novemeber yet? SB Pro will chnge so many things... :present:

[TankHunter]

And the best is, when SB Pro PE is out with its new damage model, you'll have to start discussing this all over again.

Naw, we can just handicap the SB1 vets by making them play in Leo 1A5s against the new guys.

Hah....... I'm waiting for the future update when they model that stalwart of the Swiss Army ....... the bicycle !!!!!!!!!! :shock:
Yes, M1's will tremble with the fearfull crew shaking at the sight of 100 bicycle riding Swiss troopers rolling down from the Alps !!!!
Fear them, for they can run over your toes and make you have to retreat for bandaids !!!!!!!
MUUUUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted:
YOODELLLLLLLLLAAAAAAYYYEEEEEHHHOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poker, I thought that you would want grunts riding Harley Davidson motorcycles. :twisted:

[PS-SCUD]

You'll laugh....until you find out my little biker grunts travel down roads 3 times faster than infantry on foot. They also are extremely quiet, and stir up little dust.



And when they reach their destination, they hop off the bike and whip out that RPG that was strapped to their back.

[PS-SCUD]

Exactly Elf....so why in the hell give them equal ammo, hoping it will somewhat balance them? If you want equal: play the same %^$ing tanks! Yout TC won't ever misidentify a target, so fratricide is minimal. It may take players a fraction of a second longer to ID a target, but with Borg spotting on the F5 view, I really doubt that will be an issue either.

"SB Fair" ammo is SB BS. We should accept the fact that the game is inherently unbalanced from the get go: the map is not exactly equal. The tanks are not exactly equal. The players are not exactly equal. That's the FUN of it. Facing a challenge and overcoming it.

Amen Dr. D.

If you want equal, play with the same tanks and ammo.

Heck, we already play with the same PCs in TGIF. Playing with the same tanks won't be that much more of a stretch.

Actually having to think twice before you pull the trigger might be a refreshing change as well.

[TankHunter]

You'll laugh....until you find out my little biker grunts travel down roads 3 times faster than infantry on foot. They also are extremely quiet, and stir up little dust.



And when they reach their destination, they hop off the bike and whip out that RPG that was strapped to their back.

What?! No rail gun?

[Poker]

You laugh, TH, but up until 2003 there really was a bicycle brigade in the Swiss Army.
And yes, they carried AT weapons on them, and mines, and a rifle.
Hah ! :)

[Hell_Hound]

...and in China and Korea, bicycle-mounted troops drive the opposition crazy with their road mobility. They're quick, produce little more signature than infantry on foot, consume almost no POL and can carry more weight (read: armor-piercing goodies).

I readily agree they have no cool factor whatsoever, though. :)


I'll play around a little more with Armortest.sce, making it more efficient, and when Pro comes out we can do a series of ammo tests to determine kill probabilities at various ranges. That information would be of interest to gunners and scenario designers, I suspect.

[Bluewings]

I don 't want to quote what Dr.Device said , but I agree entirely . :thumbup:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Ssnake]

For SB Pro, I can promise you that it will become important where you hit. With SB1, it's fire at something, and then hope for good fortune if there was a marginal kill likelihood. With SB Pro, the higher spatial resolution allows to define strong areas and weak spots pretty close to their actual location. The infamous turret ring will find a revival, I think.

[Hell_Hound]

There's enough publicly-available data to permit this level of detail? If so, I'm surprised.

If not, will the need for classified vehicle information hurt your chances of getting certain vehicles into the game? I'm picturing rooms full of deranged islamic radicals, pumping thousands of virtual rounds into American equipment in an attempt to find the 'sweet spots'. If that sounds too absurd, substitute deranged chinese intelligence workers.

[Horus]

How about no 'sweet spots' on the US vehicles and leave the others as is! :wink:

[Lone*star49]

There's enough publicly-available data to permit this level of detail? If so, I'm suprised.
...

Ok, curiosity has got me.. What would happen, if at close range, one put a sabot or HE round right down the barrel of his opponents loaded to fire, tank ?

And what would the damage incur,and look like?

Thinking.. "sweet spot here" :shock:


LS :?

[HighTower]

Just a question? In SBpro PE will you be able to see at close ranges were a prior hit exploded on the HUll or turret of a Tank? or is that a bit much to hope for.

[ShotMagnet]

With SB Pro, the higher spatial resolution allows to define strong areas and weak spots pretty close to their actual location. The infamous turret ring will find a revival, I think.

There's enough publicly-available data to permit this level of detail?

It's likely not a question of PD knowledge. The refining of the model, unless I miss my guess, will allow a shot that hits a track to snap the track without necessarily killing the vehicle. Currently, a shot hitting the track will nail the AFV and send the crew to Valhalla.

Also note the use of the phrase 'pretty close'. A shot hitting a known vulnerability need neither precisely nor necessarily locate that vulnerability if it gets 'pretty close'. A designer assigning damage probabilities can also perform algorithmic legerdemain on the vulnerability in question in order to keep a secret secret.

Shot

[Hell_Hound]

There's enough publicly-available data to permit this level of detail? If so, I'm suprised.


I spelled 'surprised' correctly in my post, you libelous so-and-so. Trying to frame me? :)

[dejawolf]

basically, shooting a tank in the engine, will kill the engine, not the tank. shooting up the turret on the abrams will kill most of the turret crew, but not the driver. and finally, shooting the turret bustle on the M1 will blow off the ammunition, which is very nice. in SB1 you can kill a tank by shooting it in the engine or turret bustle.
this simply opens up for a whole new spectre of strategy, vehicles are harder to kill, and easier to disable, and i'd guess mobility kills will be more frequent in battles for players exposing their lower hull too much (track damage) and a much more deciding factor towards win or lose.

[TopKick]

Shoot it until it stops moving or changes shape is the way to deal with any target.

[Ssnake]

Well, with the right ammunition (HEAT, HE), it IS possible to kill the diver while hitting the turret - it's just less likely, and it requires that the round was powerful enough to penetrate the armor, of course.

[NEpi]

What would happen, if at close range, one put a sabot or HE round right down the barrel of his opponents loaded to fire, tank ?

i don't think it should be modelled just as the loader getting a shrapnel in his nose through an episcope shouldn't. also, this is not a sweet spot, but one of the hardest spots. just remember what kind of explosions the main gun can endure, and see it is one hell of an armor piece.

[PS-SCUD]

just remember what kind of explosions the main gun can endure, and see it is one hell of an armor piece.

It can also cut right through trees like a hot knife through butter. :lol: