Infantry Modelling

[MAXMAN]

I did a search for this, but could find nothing obvious...


What are the plans for infantry in SB2 and SB Pro PE?

I have not seen any SB2 screenshots of infantry, will they still be sprites in game or are you going 3D with them?

Are there plans to make them more capable and realistic?

I know they are only crunchies to you treadheads, but there could be some interesting infantry only (or mostly infantry) scenarios (Black Hawk Down, Iraq insurgency, etc.) if the infantry model can handle it.

Different types of infantry (with varying capabilites) would be nice.. regular leg infantry, Rangers, Airborne, SF, and insurgents, to name just a few.

[DrDevice]

Currently, SBPro uses the same sprite-based infantry as SB1. Polygonal infantry models are a scheduled Pro upgrade. So we will have better-looking infantry…eventually.

Having more capable and realistic infantry would be great, but would seem difficult to model with AI only. A whole level of control interface not at all like the vehicle controls would be needed for human control too. There are simple so many options for postures, cover, etc. that make this a lot more complex that it would seem.

A real-time infantry simulator (not just a simplified game model) would be valuable for training and cool to play, but is an order of complexity above what is currently capable.

I certainly would love the little buggers to be as lethal and important as they are in the real world, but we just aren't there yet in the sim world. The game world maybe, but not the training/simulation world.

As for things like the infantry scenarios you mentioned: to make such things possible is not at all in the scope of SB. It's a neat military scenario, but it has little to do with modern armored warfare, which is what SB models.

Someday we'll have a full-spectrum simulator, just not today.

[colin]

It would be nice to designate a target and weapon for the infantry.

such as Shift/left mouse key on BMP, Shift 1 for rifles, shift 2 for bazookas, Shift 3 for ATGM

Then they would engage the target on their own.

[DrDevice]

I remember reading somewhere that the target designation feature was being implemented to some extent, so you may get your wish.

I agree that even a few simple steps will improve infantry dramatically:
- weapon selection
- target designation
- cleaner movement control
- less visible/vulnerable (troops tend to get down and stay there: crawling infantry in good cover should be pretty hard to engage and neutralize with MG fire alone.)

[chrisotto]

I think that you'll never see Rangers SF etc...

Why? SB is not a strategic simulator, but a tactical one. Rangers, SF and equal forces can be used tactically, but never are under control of a tactical level commander. Furthermore, what for do you have SF if the run around like Rambo?

[gtrof]

I think that I read on Esim's site that their will be prepared infantry positions. Also for an okay-good infantry sim try Operation Flashpoint. Its not SB but still I enjoy it.

[colin]

If they remove the habit of the grunts to run around when they are at a checkpoint with a guard/defend I will be happy. Also being able to alter the weapon loadout of a vehicle squad would be nice.

Presently I send them to a checkpoint without any orders and they automaticlly lie down and do fairly well.

Another bug I expect will be fixed is when you have an APC go from ownership by computer to player, the squad remains with the computer when it deploys, even if the vehicle has changed hands.

[MAXMAN]

If they remove the habit of the grunts to run around when they are at a checkpoint with a guard/defend I will be happy.

Why don't you select the checkpoint and change tactics to Guard or defend? They will still have the original orders (scout, whatever) on the route. Works for me.

Thanks for the info guys. Guess I'll have to wait to see what the changes are going to be for sure. Too bad they couldn't upgrade the sprites, but it's cool that it is scheduled to happen eventually.

I would like them to use proper movement procedures when moving (based on order type), ie. bounding over watch, etc.

Also, being able to adjust experience levels would be nice. A lot can be done with infantry to make them much better without too much overhead. Although I'm not a programmer, so what do I know? ;)

[colin]

Maxman

I find that when they arrive at a checkpoint with a Tactic selected, the grunts will run around aimlessly. If I don't select a tactic they will lie down and wait. You can select their fire control still

[ShermansWar]

What does "Sprite" mean? What is a "Sprite" infantry model?

[Hell_Hound]

A sprite is a single 'snapshot' of an animated image, like the frames in cel animation.

SB's infantry are animated by showing a series of pre-drawn "snapshots", one after the other, like those paper animation dealies where you flip through a bunch of drawings one after the other. Whoever made them had to create pictures for the troops from 8(?) different angles, and those are the only angles you'll ever see.

The new infantry will be animated like the tanks, where the computer has a list of geometric shapes that make up each troop, and calculates what each of those shapes would look like from your view angle. Those images aren't considered sprites because they're generated "on the fly".

[Bluewings]

a sprite is a "2D" thing , like in DOOM1 , or the grunts in SB1 .
However you turn the camera on them ~F8~, you always see the same side because one dimension is missing , in this case the depth .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[colin]

Hmm 2D, sounds like my boss...

[PS-SCUD]

Reminds me of my unit.

[m1a1vha]

i would like the SB2 team to stop working on the SB Prp PE update and put that effort into SB2. why? 2 reasons:

1] the people who will buy SB PE will love it regardles if the troops are sprites or 3D.

2] there is not real money to be made out of the update.

thats my argument.

now i did notice you had gun ports on the BMP and LAV25, so are troops gonna use them or are they just for vehicle-model acuracy?

[Hell_Hound]

Much of the stuff in the ProPE version will end up in the SB2 release anyway; in most cases it's not like working on one steals time from the other.

Besides, every improvement to the Pro version makes it a bit more appealing to militaries, where the serious money comes from...

[MAXMAN]

m1a1vha, I think you would make a lot of enemies if they stopped work on the Pro PE version because of your "argument". ;)

Think of Pro PE as an evolving BETA of SB2, only they are letting you buy into it, instead of having to wait for the SB2 release. I'm looking forward to the Pro PE version more than SB2 anyway due the features that are going to be dumbed down for SB2.

[DrDevice]

The other counter there is that eSim makes most of their money in the military market, not in the sale of sims to civilians.

The sim market isn't a real performer in the PC gaming world, so holding up high hopes of it making "real money" seems a bit far fetched. SB2 will be a niche market product, no matter how rabid we are as fans.

This is, however, speculation from the outside, with some evidence gleaned from Ssnake's comments on this forum.

IIRC, the reason ProPE has been delayed to date is the fact that military customers have placed orders for SBPro that were priority projects...

There’s only so much eSim to go around :D

[sbrocker8]

What exactly is going to be the difference between Pro and SB2 other than some dumbed down features???

[dejawolf]

campaign for Sb2 and longer support for pro PE

[colin]

Will the ammo loadout constraints be in SB2 also?

[MAXMAN]

Here is the link for the comparison chart for SB2 and SB Pro PE: http://esimgames.com/comparison.htm

[colin]

Thanks Maxman, but it doesn't really refer to the ammo issue, however looking at the combined features, I doubt this one would be in SB2, because of the intended user group.

[Ssnake]

Infantry:
Initially, infantry will look just like in SB1, that is, dumb sprites with their limited actions. However, we are currently preparing polygon-based human models that can be equipped individually, and serve different tactical purposes. The plan is to have standard rifle gunners, bazooka gunners, missile gunners, machine gunners, and their assistants. We may alo add a sniper to that selection. The idea is then that it is possible to define the composition of squads by their breakdown into different types of teams, e.g. a missile team, an MG team, etc.
For these teams, we would then define different behavioral algorithms.
As the squad leader, zou would be able to break up the squad into individual teams, and designate different positions for them, to assign different formations to the squad, etc. This is to be understood as a long-term development goal. We will probably implement this in an iterative process with several steps of improvement.

What this all boils down to is that Over time infantry will be receiving quite some attention from our side. However, Steel Beasts will not turn into a first person shooter. The simulation of infantry will always be somewhat simplified, even if we manage to improve the looks of them.

We also have created bunkers. These bunkers serve as static positions for infantry that provide decent protection against artillery fire and direct fire that is not well aimed. The drawback at the moment is that the squads won't split up into several teams when occupyong a bunker, but all climb into the same one. Nevertheless, its giving infantry better chances to survive at least for a while.


"Ammo constraints":
I'm not sure what you mean here. What I can say right away is that a mission designer will have the ability to specify up to four different types of main gun ammo being loaded into the vehicles (provided that for the caliber in question there actually are at least four types available).
For example, the 105mm gun for the Leopard 1A5 allows to load APFSDS, HEAT-MP-T, HESH, and WP smoke rounds. You can have all four of them, you can independently specify the number of them, and define how many of them would be loaded in the ready compartment (inside the turret), and how many would be in the hull storage area.

So: Yes, you can expect more flexibility. I hope that this is what you were looking for. :)

[NEpi]

i don't think the looks of the infantry is half as important as the algorythms.
got a better one for the "standard" squad already?

[Rata18]

Ammo constraint:

I think the question was about the limitation of ready-ammo compared to SB1. ie 10-17 ready rounds with the balance of the 40 round total in stowage.

Personally I can't see that it would be terribly onerous to operate under these conditions.. you are using shoot and scoot tactics any way, right?
The AI must operate under similar restrictions of course, and campaign/mission tempo should be checked for standard play under SB2.

I reckon if you had enough T34s and they operated in a concerted and organised fashion you could probably overrun and then kill a static tank position occupied by any modern tank. - but I'm not volunteering to drive one.. :lol: I'll watch from over there...

[Bluewings]

And for those who likes to play "TankQuake" or using "SniperTanks" , they 're not going to survive long ... :twisted:

Reloading time : up to 45 seconds/round .
You want to reload let say 5 sabots and 5 HEAT rounds , it 's gonna take 7 and a half minutes .
Better not be alone and well out of sight ......

Cheers . :3starSK:

[PS-SCUD]

So I guess we'll have less of those shots that are, "Just to make sure." :lol:

[DrDevice]

Infantry:
Initially, infantry will look just like in SB1, that is, dumb sprites with their limited actions. However, we are currently preparing polygon-based human models that can be equipped individually, and serve different tactical purposes. The plan is to have standard rifle gunners, bazooka gunners, missile gunners, machine gunners, and their assistants. We may alo add a sniper to that selection. The idea is then that it is possible to define the composition of squads by their breakdown into different types of teams, e.g. a missile team, an MG team, etc.
For these teams, we would then define different behavioral algorithms.
As the squad leader, zou would be able to break up the squad into individual teams, and designate different positions for them, to assign different formations to the squad, etc. This is to be understood as a long-term development goal. We will probably implement this in an iterative process with several steps of improvement.

That's great Ssnake!

Have you made a decision on custom squad size as well? Obviously, a full complement in a Marder is different than a scout squad on an M3A2, but will the vehicledetermine mounted squad size, or will that be editable as well?

And although I certainly don't want anything close to a FPS, it would be useful to have the view point as close to "what they see" in addition to the old F8-style view. That way you can keep the crunchies safely in cover and minimize exposure.

[mapman]

And for those who likes to play "TankQuake" or using "SniperTanks" , they 're not going to survive long ... :twisted:

Reloading time : up to 45 seconds/round .
You want to reload let say 5 sabots and 5 HEAT rounds , it 's gonna take 7 and a half minutes .
Better not be alone and well out of sight ......

Cheers . :3starSK:

It actually takes that long in a modern tank???

I thought the reload time was closer to what we see in SB1...about ten seconds...

[DrDevice]

MM, BW is talking about time to reload the ready rack from the secure storage areas (either hull or bustle, depending on model) rather than the "in action" reload time.


In other words, you have 10-17 rounds that are fast, then you have a got a 7-10 minute pause as you reload the ready rack.

It will make a big difference, and I, for one, am happy for the change. :cvcsalute:

[Bluewings]

Not THAT reload Mapman . :lol:

Here is Volcano speaking :

Well reloading from a parked HEMMT and tranfering ammo from the semi ready rack to the ready rack is two different things and the quicker of the two is not what you think.

Loading ammo to from a HEMMT involves four people passing a round to each other and handing it down to the loader who puts each one rapidly into the racks. Nothing hard about that and it is done very quickly. Once the ready rack is full the loader would just move to the semi ready rack that he would presumably have PREPARED for loading, especially since it was expended meaning that it should be in a semi-prepared state. While this is occuring the small arms would be tossed onto the tank to be loaded into the weapons or loaded into the coax ready box later (but it could be abstractly placed into the coax ready box for game play purposes of course).

Transferring ammo from semi ready to ready rack is much more complicated. First opening the semi ready rack is not an easy thing in itself. Yes you still open it when you upload from a HEMMT but the lock is usually open before you pull up so they are not waiting on you. To open the semi ready rack you have to remove the TC's curtain (a curtain that usually contains a bunch of crap that the TC puts in it like manuals, paperwork and pogey bait). Then you drop a sort of... lever that is used to pull the tension off the door while at the same time the TC attempts to remove the lock on the door.

Once that is done you have to manually slide the door open and take out a round. The door must then be slid ALL THE WAY closed and then the loader must open the ready rack. The round is passed to the loader and it is placed in the ready rack. The ready rack is then closed. The semi ready rack must then be manually slid open and the process repeats for each round.

It is definately not easy or quick to cross load all the rounds at once. It is time consuming enough that usually it is something done in sections and on occasion only a portion of the rounds are crossloaded at at time.

So the current time it takes may not be correct but it is close. And crossloading ammo between semi ready rack and ready rack and uploading a full load from a HEMMT would take similar times because it is two completely different tecniques.

Anyway, I just informed Al of the new time estimates created by me and a group of fellow tankers and the results will put both cross loading and uploading from HEMMT times more closely together. The findings that I sent to him in an email are:

"Uploading ammo from HEMMT:

25 seconds per round (avg)
-this equals 15 minutes for full 36 round upload. You figure that the small
arms would be throw on during this process and the 6 hull rounds would
probably not be replinished in normal situations where speed is essential.
The 25 seconds per round is because there would be a chain of people between
the HEMMT and the loader passing each round to him which he would promply
load into the honeycombs.

Crossloading from semi ready rack to ready rack:

43.125 seconds per round (avg)
-this would equal 11.5 minutes for all 16 rounds. So I guess we could
simplify and say 43 seconds per round. This is pretty close to my initial
estimation which is what gave you the current 45 seconds."

Your got it now Marc ? :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[TopKick]

Man, that cross loading time really sucks! Uploading a basic load from a HEMMT isn't so bad it seems. Does that time include breaking open ammo boxes?

What's the load up time for a T-72 - T-80? Or for a Leo?

[MAXMAN]

Ssnake, thanks for the Infantry update. That is just what I was looking for. I don't think anybody here expects Steel Beasts to become an infantry simulator, but the increased control and realism (and especially survivability!) will be much appreciated.

Cheers

BTW< who created this color scheme? My poor eyes are having a hard time making out the yellow text against the light olive background/buttons... a little more contrast please. :wink:

[sbrocker8]

Now, not to sound like a corner cutter, bt in a time crunched situation, couldn't you just leave the door on the semi-ready rack open, thus reducing cross loading time a bit???

[DrDevice]

I don't think so sbrocker8. If you read Volcano’s notes, in order to open the ready-round storage, the semi-ready door must be closed. Both cannot be open simultaneously at all. Remember too, that these are armored blast doors and are pretty massive.

Leaving it open would, of course, be a big liability if under fire. (maybe not while out of action, but still)

Now I can see setting the rounds in the turret more than one at a time (ignoring SOP and numerous safety issues) but I'm not sure how much that would help either. In other words, you could pull 4-5 rounds into the turret, then close the semi-ready hatch and slap ‘em back in the ready rack.

Basically it's a note of the reality of the sim that we all have taken for granted.

I also think the limitation isn't too crippling, as the number of rounds fired from any individual tank is usually much lower than we think. We may crew 4-10 tanks in a big game, and shoot 5-10 rounds from each, but since survivability is so low in most SB games, rare is the case where a tank would run its ready ammo dry.

[mapman]

Thanks BW!

Wow..is this time delay already modeled in SB 1 and we just don't see it for the reason Dr. D states?

...and do I understand that after firing off 16 rounds, I would need to go hide someplace for 11-15 minutes while we load up again? :shock:

[luit]

Man, that cross loading time really sucks! Uploading a basic load from a HEMMT isn't so bad it seems. Does that time include breaking open ammo boxes?

What's the load up time for a T-72 - T-80? Or for a Leo?

Loading a simple round from the storage in the tower to the cannon will take 3 seconds with a good loader.
Loading from hull in canon providing starting pos for tower is 12 o'clock will take 7 seconds

Loading 16 rounds from hull to turret and 1 in cannon will take approx 5 mins. This time can be shorter if the TC helps

Loading a tank from ammo crates will take approx 30 mins

Luit

[Bluewings]

Mapman wrote : and do I understand that after firing off 16 rounds, I would need to go hide someplace for 11-15 minutes while we load up again?

Exactly .

I was just testing a Pro PE scenario where Blue is vastly outnumbered . I had to reload my Co Tank (Leo2A4) 3 times . The second reload was an emergency one , as I was out and a platoon of lovely/deadly T-80U 's was coming at me . I drove back in deep woods and quickly reloaded 3 sabots , then when back to the fight (with 3 sabots :lol: ) where I killed 2 T-80 's before the last one sent me back to my Fathers ... :?

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Bluewings]

Pro PE rocks ! :twisted:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[PaleRider]

[quote="TopKick"]Man, that cross loading time really sucks! Uploading a basic load from a HEMMT isn't so bad it seems. Does that time include breaking open ammo boxes?

The only boxes a tank crew actually has to worry about are the ones for the machine guns. When a tank pulls up next to a HEMMT, the ammo handlers open storage tubes that are mounted on his vehicle and hand the tank crew the needed rounds (sabot, heat, etc). Once the tank has that, plus full and those delicious MRE's, its back into combat. Kind of like a race car going into the pits.

As for why it takes so long to exchange rounds from the semi-ready rack to the ready rack is all about safety. It would not be wise for the TC to hand the loader say five or six rounds from the semi-ready rack, put them on the turret floor, then put them in the ready rack. If the tank is hit at that time or a static electricity charge touchs those rounds.....BOOM, there would be nothing left of the tank.

[Ssnake]

i don't think the looks of the infantry is half as important as the algorythms.
got a better one for the "standard" squad already?
No, since it is tied in parts to functionality that only makes sense to be implemented if there is a visual representation as well.

[Ssnake]

Have you made a decision on custom squad size as well? Obviously, a full complement in a Marder is different than a scout squad on an M3A2, but will the vehicledetermine mounted squad size, or will that be editable as well?

And although I certainly don't want anything close to a FPS, it would be useful to have the view point as close to "what they see" in addition to the old F8-style view. That way you can keep the crunchies safely in cover and minimize exposure.
It's too early to comment that. Ultimately, I agree, this is what one would want to have. Whether and when it's gonna happen, I can't tell at this point.

[luit]

BW i'm so jalous of you. You playing around with SB pro and me stuck with SB1

luit

[TankHunter]

And for those who likes to play "TankQuake" or using "SniperTanks" , they 're not going to survive long ... :twisted:

Reloading time : up to 45 seconds/round .
You want to reload let say 5 sabots and 5 HEAT rounds , it 's gonna take 7 and a half minutes .
Better not be alone and well out of sight ......

Cheers . :3starSK:

You are kidding me again BW, right? Why so long?

[sbrocker8]

Those resupply times seem a little bit long. How much research/experience has gone into those times???

[TopKick]

sbrocker8,

A large majority of members here are military vets and have years of experience as tank crew members. Ammo load out times comes from experience and research into just how long it actually takes to load a basic load of ammo on a tank and move it around in the ready racks. Besides that, humping ammo is one of the most pleasurable experiences a tank crew can enjoy and they always look forward to it either on a tank firing range or in field conditions. It builds character and improves hand - eye coordination in addition to improving over all muscular build.

[Bluewings]

TH and Sbrocker8 , please read again what Volcano said about loading time in the M1 , just few posts ago .

What more do you need ? ... :roll:

Luit , isn 't it cruel indeed .... :mrgreen: :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[dejawolf]

we asked volcano. he's a loader on an M1, so he knows ;)
and Nils crewed the leopard 2, and probably spent a few weeks in the loader seat himself.

[12Alfa]

sbrocker8,

A. Besides that, humping ammo is one of the most pleasurable experiences a tank crew can enjoy and they always look forward to it either on a tank firing range or in field conditions. It builds character and improves hand - eye coordination in addition to improving over all muscular build.

Oh Ya!!!

[TopKick]

12A, is that the ammo setup on a Leo? And why is some of the ammmo standing on the nose or point? Looks like a training aid to me what with all the training ammo.

[12Alfa]

12A, is that the ammo setup on a Leo? And why is some of the ammmo standing on the nose or point? Looks like a training aid to me what with all the training ammo.

A Leo1 I wish.!
It's a Cougar, http://www.steelbeasts.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3716
and the blue rounds are shish- Prac, a standard 76mm round with a dummy warhead.

Our loadout for my last shoot was 70% live hesh and 30% shish-prac.I was ranging onto the target with my shish-prac, and when ON!, loading a live hesh for the strike.
I was not to use live hesh under 2000m as the range has mech targets system that cost mega$, but as you know shit happends, and happends. With 4 cougars the tower could pin point the cougar using live hesh under 2000m on the hard targets (t-72). I had fun that last time, and drove the tower around the bend, heheheheh.
The troop had to go to the range to re-qual for the next mission to support a Inf bat in a def position all week, range was fun, supporting the grunts was boring and 7-24 (mostly o-dark-30).

I sit (or stand in my case) in front of the rounds pointing toward you on the left, the rounds pointing down and just forward are my 10 round ready rack, they are to my left, just back and under the breach. Sometimes the spent casings will drop onto them and bounce all around. Or as in the last shoot drop onto the ready rack rounds, and when i placed my hand back to pick up another rould burnt my hand all to hell grabing a HOT spent casing. LOL

I have a vid I can send you if ya want to see me in action.

[dejawolf]

oof, didn't sound fun at all.

both leopards has a basket to catch the ejected stub cases, and in the leo2 it's critical, because of combustible propellant cartridges.

[TopKick]

12A,
That's inside the little Cougar! Well, I thought the ready rack setup was unsual with the ammo pointed down. Are the 76mm rounds fired electically or do they have precussion type ignition primers. Seems to me that if they were precussion primers it would extreamly dangerous to have the ammo standing on the nose like that. What with empty cartridges clanging around in the turret, one might land on a primer and ruin your whole day.

But I will say that your Cougar looks clean inside. Where's the mud and dirt! I am fond of spotless crew fighting compartments and turrets. I always kept the turrets in my platoon spotless inside where nothing was out of place.

[Volcano]

Well, I was a loader on the M1A1. It is the first crew position that all enlisted have to fullfill. Currently I am the gunner preparing to move to an E6 TC position on the wing tank.

But dont take the original post I made as far as times per round as what we are ultimately going to go with, but it is close. The time calculation has since been lowered from that original estimate of mine by about 10 seconds per round because we are calculating the process differently. Instead of an average time per round we are actually calculating it in a more complex way breaking it down into three elements. There is now a start time, end time and a transfer time. The longest time for the process is starting and stopping the process where the semi ready door must be unlocked, curtains removed etc. In the simple calculation it was just taking all of these times and averaged together for a generic average time per round which made it longer. Now the times are much more realistic and once the process is begun the round by round transfer would be relatively quicker than the original estimate.

But rest assured. We arent pulling numbers out of a hat here. We have first hand experience in matters like this. What we do have to take into consideration is that when we create times for stuff like this we are considerering an AVERAGE crew, not an elite crew's abilities. This way we have a sort of foundation set of times that can be increased or decreased depending on crew abilities should we have such features.

[12Alfa]

TK,
The rounds have a base cap to protect the primer cap from being "struck".

The cougar has a basket and a pad to stop rounds from flying all over the place, but as you know it's not 100% fail safe, we still got casings moving (at high speed) to other than the pad, and then the basket.

[sbrocker8]

Back to the original subject of the thread, can we make a nice crunching sound for when a tank moves over the infantry??? I've run over infantry corpses several times and thought "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if the crunchies anctually crunched!?!"

[PS-SCUD]

In real life, I doubt that would be audible over the engine noise.

[Bluewings]

can a real life Tanker try and let us know if he can hear the "crunch" ? :mrgreen:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[dejawolf]

the scream would probably be audible though.

[Hell_Hound]

The screams of the ratings board certainly would be. ;)

[PS-SCUD]

Have you ever play a game called "Killer Tanks" (or something like that) ?

Think Carmageddon crossed with SB lol.

[Charlie]

Carmageddon was a great game. I didn't like the sequel too much but the original was fantastic. I bought Death race 2000 on DVD a couple of months ago and I think it's a pretty funny movie.... especially when Machinegun Joe goes for the hospital staff instead of the patients :-)

-C-

[12Alfa]

Well I've ran over a lot of things in my 30+ years, most I did not hear till later when I had to explane why i did so.
My standard answer is "i did not see it" and " I didn't hear anything".
LOL :shock:

[sbrocker8]

12Alfa, that sounds pretty good to me!