LCD viewing screen question

[Lone*star49]

...

In about an hour from now, I am gonna go look for a 20 or 21 inch LCD screen.. Due to size limitations, I have changed my mind on getting the same in a monitor..

Can anyone point out a really good one to get, Dots/refresh rate, DVI, best color res, and will allow SB1 to be played using it along with WXP PRO.. ?

No built in speakers required also..

Thanks


LS

[NEpi]

first of all, afaik, the refresh rate of LCD screens is still rather low, which is most evident when running high frame rate sim like SBPE.
the responsivenes of the screen is pretty bad too. the pixels take more time to turn off and on again.

all screens should be WXP compatible, and there's no reason that SB couldn't work well with any of them. anyway, i'd prefer 17" CRT rather than 21" LCD.

[Hell_Hound]

Renegade has a liquid crystal screen, and told me that the refresh rate is fine for SB1. NASCAR-type stuff where the terrain is really zipping past you, might expose the weaknesses of the LCD though.

Edit: I took back the "flight sims" remark, since the motion of the planes in my flight sims (Il-2 Sturmovik and F/A-18 ) is pretty stately. Games where you hug the ground more (Apache/A-10/Hind) might be another sort that wouldn't play well on a LCD, but I have no direct experience with them.

[TopKick]

When I bought this new computer I opted for a 19 inch flat screen CRT monitor instead of a 17 inch LCD because of the higher refresh rates and .24 dot pitch. I've read that gamers prefer the CRT, but I suppose it really depends what the user wants.

[Brun]

I used to have a 21 inch sony trinitron crt. It was great but it was 67lbs!!!

[Bluewings]

Lone*Star , forget about getting a LCD screen , they simply suck for a gamer .

Any High-end CRT Monitor will do a far better job , and they 're cheaper .

You know you can trust me . :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Chaplain]

I just got a Samsung SyncMaster 712n 17" LCD. Pretty nice, with a 12ms refresh rate. I really don't notice bluring when playing Flight Simulator 2004.

The 19" Samsung has a 25ms refresh rate, IIRC. I wonder why - seems rather odd that for several hundred extra dollars you get the same resolution and slower refresh, just bigger.

[Lone*star49]

...

Thank you all for your advise.. think I'm gonna hold on to my current 16 inch monitor and see how it looks, and if good, maybe just get another flat screen one with better dot/pitch and refresh rate.

Main thing is the room I have, or don't, depending on size monitor I choose. Like Brun said, next size up is 60lbs plus..

Thanks all..


LS

[dejawolf]

well, got a samsung syncmaster 17" 172T LCD screen, and not experiencing any trouble.

[RENEGADE-623]

I have the samsung syncmaster 213T 21.3 lcd flat screen. I do notice a little blur when hooked up to vga port on my graphics card, but when i have it hooked up to the dvi i dont notice it, but even with the slight blur, it still not bad enuf to really hinder sb and i also play tfc on it and doesnt really affect my gameplay. I say get the lcd, it is much better and takes up less room than a regular crt monitor.

[Zingo]

TFT is the only option! ;) A LCD is silent, takes up little space and is easy on the eyes. Focus on the colour profile and the resolution of the screen, but take some notice of the response and refresh rate. All new LCD:s are rather fast today; any smudge is hardly noticable unless you play fast games, like FPS:s, and you'd need really fast reflexes to actually be effected by it on a modern screen. Faulty pixels are also hardly a problem.

Remeber a 17" TFT will give you a 17" image, whereas you'd need a 19" CRT for the same result.

If the screen is avalible in many sizes I'd generaly recomend going for the smallest screen with the desired resolution.

[Brun]

Good Crts can get over 2000 resolution. Lcd's cannot match it. Forget space and weight, go for best refresh rate and resolution.

[dejawolf]

LCD! much stabler picture, and you get much more desk space for other stuff.
i hung my LCD up on the wall!

well, ok, i love my LCD screen, it's so damn cool. the only part of my system that hasn't flinched or cooked up some clever Bs.

[PS-SCUD]

Dead pixels suck

[dejawolf]

where, can't see any 8)

[Lone*star49]

...

UPDATE: well, I got a Sony SDM - HS94P LCD flat screen, 12ms, Analog or Digital 19".. and it's soooooooo much bigger than my 17" with 16" viewable.. and I have 30 days, no questions asked to take it back and exchange it for anything else.. and no dead pixels, that I can see yet.

Must say, this is different.. lol


LS

[mapman]

Where at and how much LS?

[Lone*star49]

Where at and how much LS?
...

Fry's Fountain Valley.. 849.00 and 100.00 rebate from Sony..

30 day price quarentee (lowest price), and a no questions asked, exchange for another type.. or money back if not happy with it.

Also, they have same model in 17" for 349.00 and rebate (I think) either one has 12ms for gaming.


LS

[Rogue6g]

What's the big deal, just wire the pc to a Large Screen TV right?

[Chaplain]

I have played SB using the 2,000 lumen LCD projector and built-in sound system in the large meeting room at my church. It doesn't work so well from the gunner's position, but really nicely from TC or external view.

[Bluewings]

Chap , you play Tanksims in your local Church !?? :shock:
I wonder what the "High Power" thinks ... :roll: :lol:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[PS-SCUD]

I wonder what the "High Power" thinks ...

"I can't wait for Pro PE..."

[Horus]

Just have to warn you LS, my friend scott bought a 20" last year, it failed with in the first year, they have sent him replacements that break or don't work, they even sent a broken one for free, how nice when your trying to run a bussiness. Sony has dropped the ball, they produce shit along the same operational quality level as panasonic, doesn't even work out of the box. Their repairs are shoddy and incomplete, i had a mini disc player fixed and they left out 9 of the 10 body screws.. I've been a die hard sony fan since the first walkman and in the last five years they have been producing stuff along the same standards as the shittiest american manufacturers of the 80's, sylvania etc.

GOOD LUCK LS, keep the warranty card close and get something else when you replace it if you can, or take it back now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Lone*star49]

...

Don't worry Horus, I got the warrenty close, and still have 29 days left to echange it for a 19" monitor, if I don't like the "complete" package..

Checking every game out, and other things.. so far, leaning towards taking it back for monitor.


LS

[mapman]

Boy LS...that is a lot of $$$ for a monitor....are you getting a new system to match too?

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Just in case there's ANY confusion about what's what with the LCD Response Times compared to the CRT system.

Amid the cacophony of digits large and small appears one expression that is particularly important, but often overlooked. This mysterious number represents image response time and is articulated in terms milliseconds (ms), such as 12ms, 16ms, 24ms and so on. Response time is the screen’s signal reaction speed, or the time it takes for a liquid crystal panel to go from total white to total black and then back again. A 16ms LCD monitor corresponds to 63 images per second, while 12ms is equivalent to 83 images a second.
What Does this All Mean?
Bottom line -quicker response times translate to smoother and more fluid images. So, the next time you notice an advertisement shouting to the world that a specific LCD monitor boasts a lightning quick 24ms response time - which is actually a fairly nice standard - remember that a product that sports a 12ms response provides a major upgrade in image smoothness and fluidity.
In Case You’re Curious - What About the Science?
Broadly speaking, the response times of LCDs are slower than those of CRTs. In the past, the response time of most LCDs was between 20ms and 50ms, and the adverse effects of this relatively long interval could be noticed during playback of DVDs or when playing games that required especially quick scene changes. You would, for example, find that fast-moving objects would cause ghosting, particularly when black objects passed through a bright-colored background. The human eye will perceive a series of sequential images displayed at a frequency of 30Hz (30 images, or frames, per second) as continuous, as is the case with movies (24 frames per second). Screen images displayed at 60Hz will offer even more comfortable viewing, but careful scrutiny will reveal a slight sense of "flickering", as is the case with the NTSC television standard (which displays at 60 frames per second). According to standards set by VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association), the frequency necessary to achieve flicker-free display with a CRT is 72Hz. Most VGA cards and software applications, in order to accommodate the use of CRT monitors, have working frequencies set at 75Hz. In the past, the LCD monitors with 16ms response time that predominated in the market supported frequencies only up to 63Hz (1/0.016), making their display performance inferior to that of CRT monitors. Avid gamers therefore continued to use CRT monitors.

Ok, enough need to Nerd stuff, but keep the info handy when your looking at those " O so great Deals! " Right ..... NOT

Later ..... 9erRed

[NEpi]

72Hz? most screens today can run on 90Hz.
75Hz is flickering quite badly for people with high temporal resolution.

there's another good point for CRT over LCD: luminance differential (i think it is called that). CRT has a much wider range of luminence in each pixel, making contures easier to percieve.

[dejawolf]

well, as an artist, i can say that contours are easily distinguishable on my screen.
i also recently turned down the contrast on my screen, simply because the image was too sharp, and the white was eye numbingly white.
in fact, this screen is a lot sharper than CRT's. also, CRT's has sort of a "webbing" if you look closer on them, whereas LCD are completely without this.

[Lone*star49]

Boy LS...that is a lot of $$$ for a monitor....are you getting a new system to match too?
...

Yep, but it's gonna take me around 2 weeks of study to get used to it, so right now I'm playing MP with old PC tower..

New one:

Antec SX635 BII ATX 350 PS black Case (tower)

P-4 Extreme 3.4Ghz 2MB

Windows XP Pro SP2

Asus ATI Radeon AX800XT/2DT/265M PCI-Express Video-Graphic card

Corsair XMS Xtreme Performance DDR2 1 GB Memory Kit

CDR/DVD 52X32X52X16 Drive

Asus P5AD2 Premium Motherboard S775 PCIE ATX

2 Western Digital Raptor HD's @ 10,000 rpm (mirrored)

Floppy Disk Drive

PC-Cillin Internet Antivirus

Microsoft black Keyboard (not sure if I like it)

Optical Mouse

That's it.. And don't ask.. LOL


LS :shock:

[Horus]

You guys must be kidding, you don't have problems with those size systems do you???????
I'm running MP and SB on a 750Mhz, yeah thats right a 750, or what would be considered 0.75Ghz!
I have yet to drop from a game and i have only experienced lag after many had already quit in frustration, but then again I am running windows2000, which seems to be twice as fast as XP as far as I can tell but I have to live without all the fluff gimicks and system animations, aww gee, I think i'll get over it! I run other games as well and those that will run on 2000 run the same on my computer as well as the other "super computer" thats here. Maybe putting the motherboard and everything else in a steel first aid box helped its performance, not to mention the fact that I have taken it apart and put it back togetehr again around 100 times now in the last year helped as well, who says this stuff is fragile bah humbug I say, lets rebulid it!

[Lone*star49]

You guys must be kidding, you don't have problems with those size systems do you???????
I'm running MP and SB on a 750Mhz, yeah thats right a 750, or what would be considered 0.75Ghz!
I have yet to drop from a game and i have only experienced lag after many had already quit in frustration, but then again I am running windows2000, which seems to be twice as fast as XP as far as I can tell.
...

Hmmm, if it's faster, then don't change a thing.. But the reason for the new PC power tower, is for both SB Pro PE and graphics, and hosting.

First new PC and larger viewing screen since 99..


LS :helmet:

[Horus]

Yeah I hear that, I can't believe this things runs the way it does and what it does, i've been running Maya 5 and its great Photoshop has no problems, I can't wait to build a monster computer but it looks like i'm going to have to somehow get SB2 to run on the piece I have now, Ssnakes post leads me to believe that it won't so that new monster may be here sooner than I expected, my next step though is a flat screen, actually 2 screens for 2 different stations at the same desk. Apple and Windows, they each have their own great and shitty parts alone but together thay work great and round out the arsenal nicely.

[Bluewings]

I like the home made chair ! :lol:
Nice joystick setup Horus .... :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Lone*star49]

Yeah I hear that, I can't believe this things runs the way it does and what it does, i've been running Maya 5 and its great Photoshop has no problems, I can't wait to build a monster computer but it looks like i'm going to have to somehow get SB2 to run on the piece I have now, Ssnakes post leads me to believe that it won't so that new monster may be here sooner than I expected, :arrow: my next step though is a flat screen, actually 2 screens for 2 different stations at the same desk.
...

Very nice set up there Horus.. along with extra gaming wear.

:arrow: Flat screen/s as in LCD's or monitors again ?

FYI, so far, my 19" Sony LCD is gettin better each day.. no complaints that I can state, cept maybe, in my USAF, night time is really dark, and I have to use nite Mode.. and with old monitor, I could see in regular night condtions, but not able to with LCD..

Maybe some adjustments to settings.. but I have not been able to figure this thing out yet, cept for the brightness level.. :?

2 other things, may just be in my head.. but, it seems my eyes seem less strained or tired, not sure.. but seems eaiser to look at screen for long periods of time..

This is really wierd, but it seems like the old PC is "faster" in every respect with this LCD.. :?



LS :lol:

[Koen]

Reviving an old thread :

2 years ago many SB-gamers (but not all) still favoured CRT-screens over LCD, due to various issues, such as :

1. Pixel Death - when a pixel dies it's gone. And manufacturers allow dead pixels for new monitors. The number varies by manufacturer. It is always best to see the actual monitor you will purchase in operation before buying. If that isn't possible make sure the vendor will take it back or you'll hear "it meets specs for dead pixels - not my problem". Dead pixels are really, really annoying in an LCD display and they will die as the display ages.

2. Refresh rates and native resolution. If an LCD monitor has a native resolution of 1024X768 for example it is best to run it in that mode. They generally look like *shit* if run in any other res than their native res. In addition the speed at which a pixel can be turned on and off can in some cases cause ghosting which is annoying (though this is becoming less and less of a problem as the technology improves).

And if cost is an issue - well - there are 3 problems with LCD displays.

What's the situation today : would one still recommend a CRT above an LCD for gaming ?

THX

Koen

[dejawolf]

i'm looking forward to OLED and PHOLED. magic walls!

[MajorMagee]

Over the past year I've gotten rid of my large CRT, and switched to Dual LCDs. You just can't beat the look of 2 x 1280 x 1024, driven by an ASUS N6800 512M. With 8ms response time, superior brightness, and clarity for just $149 each, I'll never go back to CRTs.

8)

[deees]

Response time is the screen’s signal reaction speed, or the time it takes for a liquid crystal panel to go from total white to total black and then back again.

I think in the case of LCD's, there is more to it. The measurement of black to white is pretty meaningless for sims/games as most pixels are some shade of "grey". The response time between shades of grey are typically much longer that black/white. This is why the sub-10 monitors still don't look like their CRT counterparts. X-Bit labs has a excellent, though slightly dated, article that describes the factors that are involved in comparing LCD to CRTs.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html

[Banshee-66]

Been using a computer since 1992, have played around with graphic programs but didn't get serious into it until recently. I've used CRT monitors until last year when my crt montor burned out. Bought a Samsung SyncMaster 930B w/DVI, and noticed how clear and bright images, fonts, and even colors look. Even compared a crt to this LCD monitor and the LCD looked much better. I haven't noticed my games taking a big hit in performance either.
But this is just my opinion.

[The5thHorseman]

I think LCD's today have sorted out most of the problems that plagued the earlier versions. Even at 12ms, ghosting during gaming and mouse lag is fairly nonexistent.

I'm getting ready to buy this 24" monster....

http://shopping.comcast.net/search_techspecs_full.php/masterid=7247521//

[The5thHorseman]

By the way, before I buy that thing, can anyone tell me if SBPPE supports a widescreen resolution? If it doesn't, the image can get stretched and be wrong, which for me would make it unplayable.

That would stop me from buying a widescreen.

Anyone know?

Please and Thank you.

[Ssnake]

Steel Beasts Pro has no inherent restrictions to the display resolutions. In a worst case scenario you could run it in windowed mode and stretch the window over your entire desktop. The question is whether the frame rates will be decent at these large resolutions, but that's a matter of computing power and not a deliberate restriction from our end. You can pick pretty much any resolution that your graphics card driver supports.
:)

[MajorMagee]

I'm currently running 2560 x 1024 with no distortion. 8)

[The5thHorseman]

Thanks guys. Good to hear.

I think my SBPPE should be in my mailbox tomorrow. :D

[Androo]

Has anybody considered running three monitors in tandem via this doohickey http://www.matrox.com/graphics/offhome/th2go/home.cfm ?

Given what Ssnake said above I am guessing it would be compatible with SB Pro. It would sure give an amazing panorama, but I can't decide whether the interruptions by the monitor sides would be distracting or not. Also, if you were running at 3840 x 1024 it would be a pretty serious load for most rigs.

But man, with three 19" monitors side by side...talk about immersion....

[The5thHorseman]

"The powerful graphics engine in a workstation computer or the latest gaming system will be directly responsible for all drawing and frame rates on all the TripleHead2Go screens."


This disclaimer is basically telling you your frame rate would split over 3 monitors.

It means for most people the game would crawl to a slide show.

It would be nice otherwise though.

[Androo]

Yup, ...if you were running at 3840 x 1024 it would be a pretty serious load for most rigs. was probably the understatement of the year. And if you run at the lower resolutions the aspect ratio changes and there is a good chance that the image will be distorted.
I have never actually checked my fps with SB Pro. If it is 75+ ( :lol: ) this thing might actually be worth thinking about.
Just have to somehow come up with the cash for two more monitors. Yeah right. :cry:

By the way if there is somebody who hasn't yet given up on this, there is a detailed review at SimHQ http://www.simhq.com/_technology/technology_065a.html

*sigh*
"To dream the impossible dream..."

[Ssnake]

Having three monitors instead of two would probably be much better for immersion as the seam between monitors is not right in front of you, but to the sides. The human brain is good at suppressing minor irritations like these.
But there's only one DirectX 9 graphics card chipset that I know of that offers to render to three screens simultaneously, and yes, that's the Matrox. Unfortunately this seems to be its only redeeming feature as the general 3D performance is way slower than ATis and NVidias cards. Matrox decided to abandon the game market and cater to graphics designers and other people who need a large workspace/multi monitor setup without the need for extreme 3D performance.

[MajorMagee]

I have my two monitors angled, and the inside edges overlapped. It took my mind about two days to adapt for the seam to become "invisible". The angles give a nice wrap around feeling that let's your peripheral vision really come into play. Movement at the edge of the screen makes you turn your head to see what's going on "over there" without the need to pan the camera. :shock:

[Androo]

Ssnake,

as I understand it, Matrox have recently released an external device called the Triple Head 2 Go which will split the output from an nVidia card over three monitors. From their site: Unlike installing a new graphics card, TripleHead2Go doesn't require opening your computer, inserting parts into it, or replacing any hardware or software...TripleHead2Go is compatible with many professional and enthusiast class desktop and laptop PCs equipped with certain NVIDIA® and ATI® enabled graphics chipsets... (They also talk about ATI cards, but according to what I have read on other boards, they can be problematic.)
Here's the link to more info via the Matrox site

http://www.matrox.com/graphics/offhome/th2go/home.cfm

Matrox are explicitly going after gamers again: they describe the use of the TH2Go as "Surround Gaming".

I'm actually still thinking of going for it, depending on what kind of fps I am getting now. (I haven't checked yet.)

Major Magee, just took a second look at your set up and it does look pretty cool. That "what's going on over there" experience is exactly what I'm after. But how do you aim? Isn't the seam exactly down the middle of your crosshairs?

[The5thHorseman]

Just to follow up....

I bought this 21"widescreen LCD monitor.

I'm playing SBPro at it's native 1680x1050, and it's beautiful with good frame rates.

Well worth the money for a serious gamer.

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200049+502399&Ne=502396&product_code=339005&Pn=FPD2185W_21_inch_LCD_Monitor