HID eg. real control handle for gunner - the yoke type.

[Kelvin]

Hello I am new here so there might be some hickups in forms here but vill do my best. I wonder if anyone of us driving these beast do it with the real thing The yoke - twist left -right and turret turns, tilt forward/backwards and elevation of main gun go down up. Anyone. I haveseen pictures of danish armed forces personnal using them but thatmay be for the pro version and not us civis. I wonder what Human Interface Devices Pro pe will support. Hey u guys out there what are you fav controlers

I myself drive and aim with digiboard and digipen for perfect target acqui....... (I and so bad in english) and a nostromo n52 from belkin.
I used to do the driving with Thrustmasters HOTAS couger but my desk nearly folded up onthat wight :-) I have now a spacemouse in my hands andwill try its compatability (english again). For a sum of 700 $ it must do some god.

See u out there

[fxman249]

In one of the other threads, not sure which one at the moment, there is talk of making a commercial version of a fire control joystick available. The controller setup you see in those pics I assume are spares from the real thing with new computer USB interface chips programmed for them. Making the control chip isn't too difficult, but finding the spare parts for the actual controller housing is rare, and making your own can be quite expensive. You can use other commercially available joysticks or flight control yokes to use for the game, but I don't know if SB Pro PE will allow for custom button configuration.

Currently, I just use mouse and keyboard. Probably a lot harder to use than a joystick, but it's what I've been using since I got the game years ago, so it's natural for me already. If the plan for fire control replicas falls though or becomes too expensive for some of us, I think that most any decent flight yoke or heavy-base joystick will do fine, just as long as Pro PE will allow custom configs for the controllers. Maybe it's a good question to ask in the FAQ, about what future controller types will be supported?

[NEpi]

also, who said it will give you the best results?
it might work if you add a specially rigged pneomatic chair that bounces you around when you shoot (now that will kill mouse accuracy!), but since you sit in front of a computer, it might be just another "hand candy" rather than a real accuracy issue.
btw, using digiboards might not produce the best accuracy. i had a conversation with a human factors specialist about it this week.

[Ssnake]

Like I wrote, there is a British company who will be going to present their products in short time. I'll tell you once that the web site is up.
The control handle replicas are really as close as you can get to them without buying the actual tank - but they are pricey, no doubt.

[mapman]

What about Horus' Caddilacs???

[pide]

regarding the real cadillac in a real tank, like in the pictures on the other post(dont have a link), does anyone know the rough dimensions such as width between handles (ergonomics) and the X,Y movement - i mean how many degrees does it twist up and down and left and right? its obviously related to the humans wrist , but does anyone know? Maybe ArmyTanker could go and measure it, once he's finished pummelling all of the opositions tanks to death with his bare hands(also dont have a link to that post , but it was pretty funny)

[DrDevice]

Maybe ArmyTanker could go and measure it

Suuuuure...he's proven to be real accurate when it comes to such things. :casstet:

[Hase]

@Pide:
Leo´s gunner handle:
+/- 45° left/right
+/- 30° up/down
approximately.

Hase

[Kelvin]

Great the Forum works

Thank you guys for your reply's

fxman249 - I ones read a "how to do it" manual about transforming one type of fotpadel to go with a another type of joystick .... HEAVY. As you say doing it yourself can be time and money consuming

NEpi - You right there NEpi a yoke is better then a mouse in true enviroment. When it comes to digiboards it depends on the board I suppose. the board i have have a resolution of 150 lines/mm or 4000 lines/in which are checked i coordinationpairs 200 times per second. that gives an accuracy of 0.2 mm on the screen. I can follow a moving tank in the distant more easy with that than the mouse but that may be a personal thing. Same are better with mouse other with other controllers. The feeling of aiming with a yoke in real is great. The type I have experienced is from Stridsfordon 90 (The swedish APC). It has an 40mm cannon for main. That motion is sweet. It is more easy to follow targets in that sight than it is to do in the Steelbeast with mouse or digiboard.

SSnake - Thank you for giving me hope. To find a controller that not just work but give you the right feeling is the ultimate. If they can produce that I'm willing to pay for it. The spacemouse I bought didn't work. I is for CAD use and don't take DirectX. It need to be spacemousesupported. Sad the spacemouse is problebly the best tool for 3D control there is.

mapman - What is Horus' Caddilacs? any links

pide - That Hase tells feels right. The best part of yoke steering the aim is that it is so sensitive to those degree's. you twist and tilt a little and it move a little and that slow and smooth. More degrees means faster but still as smooth.

DrDevice - Your nickname gives me hope. Do you have an intrest in controller devices maybe. If so do you know of any good padels i can buttomconfig so I can use then to drive my tank.

Hase - You seem to be a great source of information. I take it you have handle the real thing or have a superpower called infofinding. Do you know anything about buying real yoke controllers

You are great guys

Kelvin Ice

[Ssnake]

Hase, said British company and us have worked together on those replica program. Turned out to be not quite as easy as we all had hoped for in the beginning - but progress has been made.

[Horus]

Hours's Cadillacs are so far just delrin blanks with aluminum spacers to allow the fitting area for the switches to avoid the parts explosion problem inherent with typical(german) cadillacs and be molded in carbon fiber to produce the handles. As far as posting pictures or links, i'm getting around to it, just started working at an office designing 30+ unit live-work buildings but i'll be making for more time in the shop.

I'm still looking for pictures, have a few but no good ones of the real thing (Just an M1 and the dutch prototype) any other sources? Tthe foam and plastic blanks i've made are coustom shapes (mostly to fit my large hands), some are easier than others to put electronics into, any help is welcomed and with more info there may be cadillacs for everyone someday, there could be two types, one made from a canabalized joystick (easier to quickly produce and distribute for less cash) the other being the real deal with programmable software and dedicated boards...

Stay Tuned.
H

[NEpi]

kelvin, it is about the percision of the digiboard. a mouse gives you some degrees of freedom when it comes to movement axises that a digipen doesn't deliver. you can't rotate, and compensate.
people do that naturally, even if they don't notice it.

[Wolfman]

Horus, here are the Leo2 handles just for you. :wink:

[Ssnake]

Check them out here:
http://afvsim.com/

[Retro]

Nice :) I wonder where he got the real handles..

[TheBiss]

Nice :) I wonder where he got the real handles..I know where the M1 cadillacs came from...

[Wolfman]

I know where the M1 cadillacs came from...

Wouldn't be surprised if it was ebay.


Those handles look awesome, I hope they'll be at least somewhat affordable.

[Ssnake]

Like I mentioned before, in the $1,500.- region. They are definitely not cheap by consumer standards - but in comparison with original spare parts prices they are a big saver already. Massive aluminium, ball bearings for every axis - mechanically they will last a lifetime.

[Wolfman]

Like I mentioned before, in the $1,500.- region. They are definitely not cheap by consumer standards - but in comparison with original spare parts prices they are a big saver already.

Alright guys, I am starting a prostitution ring. Email me to sign up for work.
:D

[Thiefcatcher]

Like I mentioned before, in the $1,500.- region. They are definitely not cheap by consumer standards - but in comparison with original spare parts prices they are a big saver already.

Alright guys, I am starting a prostitution ring. Email me to sign up for work.
:D

harhar, just getting a dress of my wife real quick:) wount look great on me but............. :twisted: 1500 bucks, cheees, thats real a huge money amount, better going out and snipe a tank and take it from him ...:)

[mapman]

I'll bet Horus can make them for under $100 bucks!

[Thiefcatcher]

I'll bet Horus can make them for under $100 bucks!

then we should talk with him about it sooooon :)

[Lone*star49]

:arrow: I'll bet Horus can make them for under $100 bucks!

then we should talk with him about it sooooon :)
...

:arrow: hmmm, if Horus can come close to that, and send me a proto-type, and it works, and improves my shooting in the M1, hell, the Leo too..lol, I would entertain, seriously, the idea of fronting him working capital, in an effort to keep the cost to the SB community down, and affordable to most, on a semi-volume basis, program..


LS

[Horus]

Wow LS, i'll keep that in mind, looks like when i get home from work today i'm going to have to post some pics of the handle blanks so far.

Thanks everyone for the links and pics, 100$ would be hard to nail as a price unless there was some assembly req'd...lol.

Couple of quick thoughts/ questions-

Who is interested in a replica of the real thing over an adaptable semi replica, my concern as a user is the two hand thing, usually someone is driving the tank, having a single hand caddi would allow for driving witht the other hand.

How do the buttons work within the cadi, or which is which and how do they affect the tank turret?

USB or gaming port type of connection/ anyone know how to make circuit boards and set up periph's, I got the web site for the pin locations and resistance.

Have to get back to work-

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Ref the electrical set up for various types of peripherals, here's a site that has many useful ideas as well as the diagrams for various components setup. It's a racing site but can be adapted to other systems. Say Cadillacs or commanders joystick combo's.

http://www.monmouth.com/~lw4750/electrical.htm

Later ..... 9erRed

[Kelvin]

Okey I'm back.

What lonestar49 said about fonding Horus some sounds fine to me.
There must be a lot of braintrust in the community to make a controler
good enough for us to game with. How about a new subject in the forum called abilitypool or something odd where we can tap in to see if there is something we are able to help with. I myself work as an CAD Design Engineer in CATIA, PRO Engineer and AUTOCAD. 2D 3D planns, CAD/CAM programs I might be able to help. I don't mean to compete with producers just that 1500$ upset my stomach a little hehe. Just brainstorming here waiting for Pro PE. And a set of new controls.

[Ratcatcher]

Hi all, well i've been lurking here for a good while now ( off and on since the first run of SB ) but this has got me sucked in again !

I'm really interested in this concept, I went onto the afvsim web site and e-mailed them for details, £800 for a Leopard 2 yoke!!! hmmm well I nealry e-mailed back that I was just after the controller not the whole tank ! :shock:

I would however be interested in paying for a controller if it came within the £100-£200 region (MAX). Obvioulsy for that I wouldnt be expecting a near perfect copy and the idea of Horus' is very interesting. Being able to utilise one hand to worry about gunning and the other to do all that other stuff!

[mapman]

Wow LS, i'll keep that in mind, looks like when i get home from work today i'm going to have to post some pics of the handle blanks so far.

Thanks everyone for the links and pics, 100$ would be hard to nail as a price unless there was some assembly req'd...lol.
-

Aha!!!

Anybody here remember the old Heathkits? ( http://www.heathkit-museum.com/computers/ec-1.shtml ) You could order just about anything electrical at a discount and build it yourself!

For all the model and gatchet lovers we have here, I bet we could do two versions.

Richman's Version - No assembly required.

Kit Version - All assembly required! How-to Video CD included along with Radio Shack replacement part numbers!! By opening the package you agree with all disclaimers about frying your PC when you plug it in...LOL

[Ssnake]

We've bounced many ideas back & forth with the AFVSim guys. The business math simply doesn't work out. Creating plastic molds for handles of any kind is horribly expensive. It only works out if you're going to produce at least 5,000 pieces, probably more like 10,000. Now, the production of so many pieces, even if the unit price shrinks to a quarter of the current price (=> $400.-) means that you're in for at least two million dollars initial investment, or probably even four. Now, that's OK if there is a guarantee that one can actually sell that many copies - but there isn't. Could be that you end up with just 500 customers, and a staggering loss of almost two million bucks.

Alternative: Use an existing tool shop, and traditional aluminium tooling. The grips are based on a sand cast process, the rest gets milled from aluminium blocks, or assembled from sheet metal pieces. That way you can keep the investment low to "just" a few ten thousand bucks, but the unit price quadruples. You can go around and ask whoever you want - either people are going to take an insane risk, or they end up with the same manufacturing process, and hence similar costs. There is no way around it. You can't beat the laws of financial mathematics.

[Ssnake]

We have had two competing designs for the electronics, and ended up with the cheaper solution. We looked at a resin cast production method, and found it unsuitable for serial production (let alone mass production). It would have been even more expensive than the current solution. We looked into the option to buy original assembly parts, and just replace the expensive milSpec electronics with standard parts. Some of the companies who made the grips don't even exist anymore, and the stocks are limited. It's really crazy - the only suitable way that could be identified was the aluminium cast/milling solution. It's probably as sturdy as the original, except that you couldn't trust the electronics under climate conditions where your PC would inevitably fail as well. :o

[mapman]

Regarding the number of units sold potential Ssnake....

Any thoughts as to what the demand would be from your military customers? Might it offer sufficient orders to cover the numbers mentioned above? Especially if it was both backward and forward compatable?

[Sean]

Are the buttons going to be programmable, and does it use a usb interface?

[Horus]

Here are the blanks mounted on some scrap, only one is rounded to fit the hand, the other needs some grinding, the center fixture is temporary and will be constructed after the handles are fitted with switches that need to be fabricated (which will be made from aluminum) for the front two with micro switches and a tension spring to push the metal pc. the other buttons will be cylindrical, the other controls will heve to be driven from gears fixed to the two rotational shafts and enclosed in boxes. With some luck everything will be programmable with some extra switches here and there for ammo, mag and tis.

More later.

H

[Horus]

More..

[Horus]

and the last one. 8)

[pide]

hi, are any of the images u can see here related to "Mausboot" that was a name that came up ages ago when i asked about cadillacs a while ago?

ps. did you see that guy that posted recently that had a smiley as an avatar, but he had like a conjoined twin ( another smiley hanging off his head? LOL i wish i chose that one) i didnt want to say anything tho...

OK, it was JACN, but dont hassle him about his problem ok? everyone is different.

[mapman]

Cool Horus!

Thanks for the preview!

Will yours be under $1,000? :wink:

[BipBip]

Hehehe....

with a M1 yoke at 1000 $, I hardly guess the price of a Leclerc one, with its 12 buttons. :roll:

[chrisotto]

There is no way around it. You can't beat the laws of financial mathematics.

Muahahhahaha, muahahahaha! :twisted: MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Bluewings]

BipBip , show us a pic .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[BipBip]

BipBip , show us a pic .

Cheers . :3starSK:

Here it is. That's the same yoke for the TC and the Gunner.

BTW, that's 10 and not 12 buttons, but one of them is an hat, which can be moved on the "Y" axis.

There's an button under each index finger, and one palm switch on each part of the yoke.


Photo credit : Froggy

[Ssnake]

There is no way around it. You can't beat the laws of financial mathematics.

Muahahhahaha, muahahahaha! :twisted: MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Speaking of which, I wish Horus all luck, but he's going to regret making promises here (should he do so). The only solution to push the price for a handle replica significantly below AFVSim's price level is to externalize costs - e.g. creating the parts of an assembly kit as a hobby job, charging only for material, shipping & handling costs. If you actually try to make a living of it and have to pay a mechanic and run a workshop, I don't see how the price could be reduced. My practical experience as an industrial engineer is limited, but what I learned during my studies makes me bold enough to say "No way" here.

[Hell_Hound]

What lonestar49 said about fonding Horus some sounds fine to me.


I've scrolled past this post about six times, and every time I see that out of the corner of my eye I think it says "fondling Horus". :shock:

[Lone*star49]

What lonestar49 said about fonding Horus some sounds fine to me.


:arrow: I've scrolled past this post about six times, and every time I see that out of the corner of my eye I think it says "fondling Horus". :shock:
...

:? Of course HH, you realize such a statement means WAR.. :shock:

:arrow: fonding = funding (I think..err I hope..lol)


LS :lol:

[PS-SCUD]

Hey, if he can make a pair of cadillacs for 100$, we'll ALL be fondling him. :lol:

[TankHunter]

What lonestar49 said about fonding Horus some sounds fine to me.


I've scrolled past this post about six times, and every time I see that out of the corner of my eye I think it says "fondling Horus". :shock:

LS, are you trying to cop a feel? :wink:

[Froggy]

I love them
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/koriwenn/datas/photos/Paloniers.JPG

[TankHunter]

What is that off of, Froggy? Note:I love your SN, I can now call someone from France a froggy and not get my ass kicked by the French on this MB <G> ;)

[DrDevice]

See above TH - Leclerc handles.

[TankHunter]

See above TH - Leclerc handles.

A Leclerc uses a 50 cal as COAX?! :shock: :o

[Ssnake]

Yup.

It's a tradeoff: You can't carry enough coax ammo with you to use a cal .50 as an area weapon. But it's a great weapon against trucks and lightly armored vehicles as well as in a "counter sniper" role. So it'll spare you some main gun rounds against those "lesser targets".

On the other hand, if you need a great volume of fire for more than a short moment, you're screwed.

[TankHunter]

Yup.

It's a tradeoff: You can't carry enough coax ammo with you to use a cal .50 as an area weapon. But it's a great weapon against trucks and lightly armored vehicles as well as in a "counter sniper" role. So it'll spare you some main gun rounds against those "lesser targets".

On the other hand, if you need a great volume of fire for more than a short moment, you're screwed.

Dont 50 cals have a slower rate of fire then a 30 cal?

[Ssnake]

Exactly. Which is why you can't use them as an area weapon, and for sustained mass fire.

[CommanderA9]

Check them out here:
http://afvsim.com/

hey! that's the new simulator the armory on my campus just had installed. theyre conducting an experiment with us armor company guys to see if results in the afist XXI tanks compare well to this simulator.

woa!!! 1500? hell no! Hopefully, this said Horus will make us a cheaper pair of cadillacs, as some of us are real tankers or tankers-in-training, like myself, and need some more damn practice!