Help, need information, please!

[JACN]

Hi all,

I´m new at this forum (and game) and would like somebody gave me information about SB2 & SBPRO. I´ve always been (and am) a combat flight simmer: Falcon4, Longbow2, Lockon and IL-2. But after trying the Balkans in Fire:t72 demo I became interested in this kind of sims.
I can see SB is the king of the mountain and I´m highly interested in give it a try. I´ve never played SB1 so my knowledge about this sim is poor.
My questios are:

- What should I expect about this sim?, in terms of realism, inmersion, AI, etc...

- All the screenshots (amazing, BTW) depicts vehicles but how is infantry modelled?. How good is (or will be) their AI?. Will they hide using terrain, houses,...?. Will they use ambush/guerrilla tactics? or just they are static objects that keep position firing until kill you/get killed?.

- Does this sim have campaing mode or just only missions?. If has, is it a dynamic one?.

- Wich sceneries will it include?.

- Realistic weather modelled?

- I suppose the vehicles parameters will be very accurate reflected(engine, performances, munitions phisics, armour) but how complex its general phisics engine will be (gravity center, mass, inertia, elastic/damping system model)?...in other words: will the vehicles react to the roughness in a realistic way?.

- Will it be released in Spain?

I think that´s all. Sorry mates but before getting my 100+ euros spent I want to kown if it really worths!

Thanks in advance,

Á.
PD: sorry for my bad english :oops:

[dejawolf]

well, i'll start out here. the real strengths of steel beasts is it's gunnery modeling, tactical modeling and sounds. the driving and engine modeling isn't really that strong at all. infantry modeling isn't fully developed for steel beasts pro PE yet, and visually is stone age.
but the little critters do pack a punch ;)
the big benefit of steel beasts pro PE, is that it's a continous development, so the areas not fully developed, will eventually be taken care of over the years, as well as additions of new vehicles, buildings, features, and stuff like that. the upgrades will be free of charge, and an addition to the SB pro PE package, which is, until our pockets are strapped, and we're having trouble paying for our internet connections, let alone food.

SB pro PE is sold through our esim games webshop when it opens.

[Ssnake]

- What should I expect about this sim?, in terms of realism, inmersion, AI, etc...
I think it's safe to say that realism of procedure is top notch, realism of visuals is good, and realism of result is very good within the limits of the scope of the simulation. And nobody ever complained about the lack of immersion. :mrgreen:- All the screenshots (amazing, BTW) depicts vehicles but how is infantry modelled? How good is (or will be) their AI?. Will they hide using terrain, houses,...?. Will they use ambush/guerrilla tactics? or just they are static objects that keep position firing until kill you/get killed?.
Infantry in Steel Beasts is simplified, but definitely not harmless if used right. They have anti tank capability, and will use it if given the opportunity. As far as "AI" is concerned - there is no such thing as artificial intelligence - it depends a lot on the scripting. The mission editor in Steel Beasts allows the definition of pretty complex tactical instructions for every maneuver element - but the mission designer must also use the given tools properly.- Does this sim have campaing mode or just only missions?. If has, is it a dynamic one?.
There is no "campaign" mode. It is on The List for the next consumer game version, Steel Beasts 2. Our goal is to develop a semi-dynamic mission tree. The nature of Steel Beasts' scenarios doesn't allow for completely dynamic random missions, therefore the creation of a fully dynamic "campaign" would require a total deviation from our current design principles.
"Campaign", btw., implies a development at the operational to strategic level. Steel Beasts has been, is, and will remain to be a tactical level combat simulation. Therefore we will never create a campaign where the player could, say, conquer India. The scope will be much smaller.
This is different from flight simulations, because airplanes typically serve an operational role, and not a tactical one. Even close air support (CAS) missions are often performed with the current operation's goals in mind. Missions like battlefield air interdiction (BAI) are aimed to attrit the enemy before he can actually bring his weapons to the point where their presence matters. Most other mission types are either performed to facilitate this mission type, or to deny the enemy to do the same on us. Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD), Counter Air (CA), or Air Interdiction (AI) fall into these categories. This makes flight simulation fall into the category of operational level wargaming, even if the individual dog fight or missile engagement is of tactical nature.
Ground combat doesn't have this "personality split". A company covers a battlespace of few square kilometers, a battalion may be responsible for a hundred square kilometers at best. Aircraft cover many hundred miles of travel during their missions. It's important to keep this difference in mind.- Wich sceneries will it include?.
If you are asking about certain countries and/or theaters, and their strategic framework, I'll have to disappoint you. While we do use real-life terrain, we will rarely mention the names of nations. At the tactical level, it doesn't matter what name a country has. What matters are the formations of the landscape, the nature of the terrain.
In Falcon 4, you spend a lot of time flying from your home airbase to certain maneuver points to change your direction of approach, then you go and bomb an airfield, suppress the local air defense, and eventually fight the one or other MiG. After the ordnance is spent, it's time to fly home again. In Steel Beasts, you could start one hill short of the airfield, and then spend the rest of the day fighting for it. Whether that airfield is in Korea, Germany, the US - how could you tell?

I don't want to say that this is an issue that is totally unimportant. But since tactical ground combat is identical with its wargaming level, this question has a much higher importance in flight simulations because here your tactical actions have immeditate operational implications.- Realistic weather modelled?
Not yet. Again, air operations and flight sims care a lot more about the weather because they are affected a lot by it. Dogfight in a thunderstorm with propeller fighters is a lot more about survival than driving with a tank in the rain. You don't have to land your tank either. No energy management. If you run out of fuel, that's mission critical, but it won't get you killed right away.
Weather, of course, DOES have its tactical implications on the ground. I don't deny that. But its influence is not dominating, and therefore has not even been in demand by the armies to which we're selling our software. I think that we could do a neat trick here and there with weather, and it certainly would make for nice eye candy, but in terms of functionality and relevance for the gameplay experience, weather is a lesser factor.- I suppose the vehicles parameters will be very accurate reflected(engine, performances, munitions phisics, armour) but how complex its general phisics engine will be (gravity center, mass, inertia, elastic/damping system model)?...in other words: will the vehicles react to the roughness in a realistic way?.
Our emphasis so far has been accuracy in the crew procedures and the replication of the fire control system. The automotive simulation still is primitive (but seems to be sufficient to avoid annoyance among the users). There is some background activity to improve the simulation of vehicle suspension and traction. Once that it is ready, we will offer an update for SB Pro. Only then we can see if it really impacts the experience significantly. :)- Will it be released in Spain?
Technically, No - but of course you can get it, and even if we don't offer an immediate full localization, it will at least come with Spanish menu texts and Spanish voices. I hope that one day we can also offer help texts and mission briefings in Spanish (which is also up to people like you, since Steel Beasts Pro supports multiple language briefings now).PD: sorry for my bad english :oops:
It's excellent. Really. :)

[JACN]

Thanks for the info,

I´d like to make one more question:

- Are there edifications and buildings modelled in the sim?, from your words I deduce simulation is oriented mainly to the open battlefield combats. Isn´t the urban fight contemplated as a possibility? :(

I know weather is more an eye candy feature than other thing in this kind of sims...but I think it is a number one (or two perhaps) immersion factor. I also think it can affect the ballistics performances through the temperature and of course wind and gusts. Also, decisive factors for the ground fight as visibility and illumination are highly weather dependent.

Thanks in advance,

Á.

[Lone*star49]

Thanks for the info,

I´d like to make one more question:

:arrow: - Are there edifications and buildings modelled in the sim?, from your words I deduce simulation is oriented mainly to the open battlefield combats. Isn´t the urban fight contemplated as a possibility? :(

I know weather is more an eye candy feature than other thing in this kind of sims...but I think it is a number one (or two perhaps) immersion factor. I also think it can affect the ballistics performances through the temperature and of course wind and gusts. Also, decisive factors for the ground fight as visibility and illumination are highly weather dependent.

Thanks in advance,

Á.
...

JACN.. chk post/thread:

:arrow: "This gonna be awesome..." by Thiefcatcher.. with pic in this same General forum..


LS :helmet:

[Ssnake]

- Are there edifications and buildings modelled in the sim?, from your words I deduce simulation is oriented mainly to the open battlefield combats. Isn´t the urban fight contemplated as a possibility? :(
Well, MOUT (Mechanized Operations in Urbanized Terrain) indeed is a hot topic. It's a hot topic because nobody really has a detailed, validated, and reliable model. Practically all armies are alarmed about this issue - but it is the very nature of MOUT that so far has prevented thorough analysis. MOUT is complex. It's the most complex environment for combat than one can imagine. This complexity makes it a really, really tough job for programmers - simply because there are so many environmental variables, and because it's infantry-heavy action in any case, and infantry has a lot more "freedom degrees" than a combat vehicle.

Having said this, I can tell you that we are working on the issue, but that you should not expect wonders, and not in the immediate future. We will start with expanding the current selection of buildings, and add states of partial destruction. That alone isn't trivial, but probably worth the issue.

Once that this has been done, we need to teach infantry to utilize buildings in a proper manner. As soon as these two elements have been mastered, I think that we will be much closer to simulating combat in such a highly restrictive terrain.I know weather is more an eye candy feature than other thing in this kind of sims...but I think it is a number one (or two perhaps) immersion factor.
It depends a lot on how much other elements of the gameplay keep you occupied. In Steel Beasts, you rarely can afford to sit & stare at the environment. There could be a gun poking through that bush over there, right now, and zap you. No - you will be fully absorbed with searching for the enemy. Trust me.I also think it can affect the ballistics performances through the temperature and of course wind and gusts.
Most certainly so, but can you quantify this? ;)
The point is, we simply treat it as "out of bounds" of the scope of our simulation. If there is crosswind, you either have a crosswind sensor on your tank, or you set the value in the fire control computer once in a while, and that's it. If you have to set it manually, how would you know what the proper value is? Do you have a battery of fans around your chair that we can control through a device to create virtual wind? Or would you like to see the twigs of trees sway and shake, and leaves whirling through the air?
If so, where's your 6 GHz computer? :o

Likewise, it would be possible to arbitrarily set some variables for ammo and air temperature. But how can we know what the proper parameters are? I'm not against interpolating figures now and then if no data are available, but you will find about NOTHING at all in unclassified papers about the influence of ammo and air temperatures on the ballistic properties of modern large caliber ammunition.
So, before we feed you with shit, we rather tell you that since there are no publicly available information about it, we rather not include these elements in our simulation. Fantasy has its place, but not in SB Pro. At least not here.

[JACN]

Well, MOUT (Mechanized Operations in Urbanized Terrain) indeed is a hot topic. It's a hot topic because nobody really has a detailed, validated, and reliable model. Practically all armies are alarmed about this issue - but it is the very nature of MOUT that so far has prevented thorough analysis. MOUT is complex. It's the most complex environment for combat than one can imagine. This complexity makes it a really, really tough job for programmers - simply because there are so many environmental variables, and because it's infantry-heavy action in any case, and infantry has a lot more "freedom degrees" than a combat vehicle.

Having said this, I can tell you that we are working on the issue, but that you should not expect wonders, and not in the immediate future. We will start with expanding the current selection of buildings, and add states of partial destruction. That alone isn't trivial, but probably worth the issue.

Once that this has been done, we need to teach infantry to utilize buildings in a proper manner. As soon as these two elements have been mastered, I think that we will be much closer to simulating combat in such a highly restrictive terrain.

I like knowing you´re working on it. I´m also aware that a smart infantry with an advanced AI behaviour is both difficult to reflect and a high CPU´s cycles eater. But also, I do believe that the infantry element is (was and will be) the most important component one has to take into account in the urban context, one only has to switch-on TV...

one more question (sorry :oops: ):

What about chopper support? Is it modelled?

Thanks,

Á.

[ShotMagnet]

The stated intent and aim of this sim is armored warfare.

The subject of air support has been bandied about before and largely dismissed as being too influential to the outcome of a battle. You can bring down a chopper with a .22 cal rifle bullet, but that same chopper can take down a whole company of panzers, and it doesn't need much for the choppers to surprise the panzers, kill a whoop o' tanks, then buzz away without a scratch.

Think about it, want to be on the receiving end of that kind of superiority?

For training, maybe; and for the military organizations that use SB as a training aid it might even be appropriate. For us, the fans, it'd be less than no fun. Personally, I'd like to see gunships only if there were some form of AAA available to hole them.


Shot