SB Pro release date

[Ssnake]

I am really sorry to say this, but our September announcement of a release these weeks was too optimistic when we thought that it would be really safe to say so.

You may curse me now for ruining your X-mas holidays. There is nothing I could do about it. I can only offer an explanation, and my sincere apologies.


I think that the code as such is quite good. However, the beta testing has revealed a number of issues that had not been reported previously. Over the years, we have had constant and thorough feedback from army customers who are using our software in daily training, and this feedback gave us the impression that we were on a very good track.

That picture wasn't completely off, but not perfectly right either.

We could release a code that would appear OK in most singleplayer situations, as well as in LAN environments. But occasionally you could run across a few but annoying issues that we think should better be worked out before we release it. You are going to pay a lot of money for which you all worked hard, and you deserve a software quality that should be low on bugs, especially of the annoying type.


Why didn't we discover these before?

Part of that reason is my fault.
I am responsible of creating the sets of armor definitions that are the basis for damage calculations. It turned out that creating these armor definitions requires a LOT more brains and thorough stochastic analysis than anticipated. If undisturbed, I manage to define a full vehicle set in two days. Unfortunately I rarely encounter undisturbed days, and I'm on this issue since July now. I am beginning to suffer from burn-out symptoms.
The point is, of the armor definitions are off, the damage calculations are off, and this seriously affects the ability of the mission designers to test their new scenarios. They can't check whether the balance of a mission is off or not, etc.
For some time we simply couldn't decide whether the first impressions of the new model were anecdotal deviations of a stochastic process, or if there was a systemic error embedded. We found out what was wrong, improved the tool with which I am creating these data sets, and it was back to do it all over again.
After this came the fine tuning. :o

OK, I don't want to sell a sob story here. It's just a description of what can happen during a software development process. And it's not like this was the only reason for delays. Some development jobs took longer than anticipated, there are some open questions about the shop software, ...

None of these elements alone would stop us from a timely release.
It's their combination. It means that we better not promise a release before Christmas. We have always had the design principle of quality over speed, and it doesn't make sense to abandon this principle right now.


I am convinced that the result will be worth it. There is a wealth of cool new features awaiting us, allowing unprecedented flexibility for the mission designers, great looks and even better gameplay.
I am sorry, and I apologize for this development of the situation. But I am not regretful for prioritizing code quality. Ultimately it's for the better of everyone.

[NEpi]

:o

all hail Monopatchism! this is a test of our faith!

[TankHunter]

You know what they say Ssnake, shit happens. I would prefer the game to be late instead of out now and with errors in it.
Oh one question, do we still gotta wait for the 3D inf?

[chrisotto]

"...as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.”

Well, we'll have to wait.

[chrisotto]

all hail Monopatchism! this is a test of our faith!

Sacrifice! Sacrifice! Sacrifice!

[Lone*star49]

...

Understood Ssnake..

Oh, could you send me that reciept for that German Chocolate Cake your wife makes, as me and the Mrs would love to try it.. both in German and English, so we can practice reading in German, we need some practice..asap if ya don't mind..

Thanks, Oh, and btw, oh forget it, that would be asking too much..

Just the reciept will do.. (both languages)

ASAP..

Thanks..


LS :lol:

[TopKick]

chrisottoSacrifice! Sacrifice! Sacrifice!

[Kingtiger]

KILL THE RODENTS!!!!!!! :twisted:

[Mahmoud_Al_Khard]

Verily, He of the forked tongue has spoken......
Shame be upon us for neglecting our responsibilities .... for failing to appease the keeper of The_List.
For it must be our failing for which we are being punished !
Praise The_List ! For it is these trials and tribulations that bring us back to the path to enlightenment where once we stray.
The keepers of The_List have spoken ... and you must hear them, for it is only through the sacrifice of more small rodentia that they shall be appeased .... Verily as I walk upon the soil of these lands, I see many members of the Special Squirrel Service, those abominations that dare to call themselves a part of the Rodent Army.
They must be wiped out, in honor of The_List !
Sharpen thy spit points, for many a rodent carcass will regail them soon.
Take to the woods and hedges, victory is at hand, a suitable sacrifice to the keepers of The_List shall bring our wants and needs to realization !

Victory is near !!!!!!!!!!!!

[chrisotto]

SmallDeadAnimal

You just have to love this understatement...

[Thiefcatcher]

Ssnake, we standing in attention and waiting.... Hohaaa :)

TC

[plummerx]

Well, all I can say is this:
This is probably the only game I'd ever consider paying $125 for, and happily accept the bugs.
Because I'm very confident they would be fixed.

I know such a release won't happen though.

And Ssnake has been very careful not to bomb us with the more typical gaming world hype and false hope.

Granting pardon in this instance is not difficult.

So we here settle in before the still damn good SB-1, and wait.

Maybe we can still celebrate new years with 120mm cannon in 3d.

[Dewman]

"...as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.”

Well, we'll have to wait.

When it is done it is done ..

[georgerutherford1861]

Until it is done, I for one will (hopefully) wait patiently.

[Hell_Hound]

On the upside, I now know what "stochastic" means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stochastic

[Wahrborg]

I've been playing this sim since spring 2001, and MP since 02 , and when i hook up to a MP game today, the adrenaline rush is just as great now, as it was the first time i saw a enemie tank in my sights... So i think i can live on this rush, for a cupple of more days, weeks, months ;)

And burnt-out Ssnake isn't what anyone wants. Not worth to put your health in jeopardy. We can all wait ;)

[PS-SCUD]

I weep. :cry:

All of my youthfull optimism is gone. :cry:

[chrisotto]

I weep.

All of my youthfull optimism is gone.

Ssnake, what have you done! You have changed Scud forever, scarred his mind, pushed him over the edge - you might have created a cathar of mono-patchism... we might have to start an investigation!

NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[ShermansWar]

Who's the other Plumber?

[BipBip]

Gasp... Gasp... Gasp... Rahhhhh

Now I know that it's useless to be anxious just before clicking on my "SteelBeasts.com The Official Fan Site" bookmark.

[colin]

Ssnake is in keeping with military tradition of promising the troops that they will be home for Christmas. well in this case it will mostly be true, with the troops staring quietly at that special spot they reserved for that special box.
Such is life.

[dejawolf]

sigh.. oh well.
i'll just keep on working then.

[hussar11]

some one give me a beer......make that MANY BEERS
I need some thing to cry in, the wait is starting to get to me.

[burner]

THE CURMUDGEON'S COUNSEL - "Never under-estimate your ability to over-estimate your ability. "



The Curmudgeon Server - http://www.noeticharbor.com/curmudgeon/

[Elf`]

Cant we blame this on BW somehow??? :lol:

[tarball]

I'll be the lone voice of dissent...

At $125.00 US (and most of us would likely be willing to pay more), I'd almost liken this software to be fitting of a subscription model. As such, it is assumed that, for the duration of the subscription period, the software is subject to updates, corrections and enhancements. If you were using SB Pro SE to really target the game market (it is assumed you are not, I don't expect to see reviews of SB Pro SE in gamespy, etc.), perhaps your hestiance would be that much more understandable. However, as you've been supporting military use for some time now, it seems as if the codebase is "good enough." A subscription would take some pressure off and get the $$$ flowing into eSimGames NOW.

If you change your business model for this title to subscription software, I think your hesitance and reservations about this software will be allayed to a degree. SB Pro SE is not my business, so I am just rendering a user's opinion, but this obviously isn't a "throw-away" title we are talking about here. Additionally, I do not get the sense that you are expecting a large number of units sold. It seems that hard-core crowd is the target and, additionally, a crowd which largely drops by this sb.com. It seems the hard-core would be a good segmet for subscription software. It seems that the kumawar folks do reasonably ok under the subscription arrangement.

I have no way of knowing your situation and take your description of the delay at face value. I found this interesting tidbit on the net that ultimately supports your decision though:



http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/tpl/talks/project_management.html

Once things start slipping it's hard to get them back on schedule - the situation tends to get worse rather than better. This may be because of the nature of the project or choice of procedures. Problems include:

Gold-plate (the opposite of Boiler-plate) - A developer gets carried away with details
Feature-creep - clients etc. keep requesting more features
Mythical man-month - Adding staff can slow a project down rather than speed it up: 9 women can't deliver a baby in a month

Delaying the release may be the only sensible option - "People forget how fast you did a job - but they always remember how well you did it" - Howard Newton.


Best of luck with it, we are all waiting in anticipation (as you surely know).

[PS-SCUD]

This is all because of his "Tank Range" thread....

I just know it....

[Bluewings]

Elf , SCUD ,

No comment .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Elf`]

HHAHAHAHAHA, Oh, Bluewings, you are such are good sport!!!:), Bless ya. Glad yer on the team, lets keep doin what we can to help get this baby out!!! :cvcsalute:

Elf

[Bluewings]

:oops: :cvcsalute:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[CommC]

I have only one thing to say in regards to Ssnake's announcement:


Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh eeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiooooooouuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeh hhhhhyyyyyy!!!!!

[EchoLima]

Hey Ssnake, Just take it easy and do it right the first time. We can wait. Hell SB1 is still kicking my butt everyonce in a while... And I might be getting a job pretty soon so I can afford SBProPE. Nothing is more important than your health keep that in mind!

[Froggy]

No, no, I can't wait too much, be send for 4 months to Tchad in February.

[cobra87]

so this begs the question, at what time frame are we looking at? 3-6 more months maybe? feel free to respond over! :?:

[TankHunter]

so this begs the question, at what time frame are we looking at? 3-6 more months maybe? feel free to respond over! :?:

:shock: Is that huge thing that I am looking at your avatar?!

[9erRed]

Greetings Cobra87,

Ref your avatar.....

Avatar control panel
Displays a small graphic image below your details in posts. Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 100 pixels, the height no greater than 100 pixels, and the file size no more than 12 KB.

Please adjust your avartar as it effects the entire thread screensize.

Thank you ..... 9erRed

[TankHunter]

Greetings Cobra87,

Ref your avatar.....

Avatar control panel
Displays a small graphic image below your details in posts. Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 100 pixels, the height no greater than 100 pixels, and the file size no more than 12 KB.

Please adjust your avartar as it effects the entire thread screensize.

Thank you ..... 9erRed

That or we can all super size our avatars! :P :wink:

[Thiefcatcher]

Ssnake, we standing in attention and waiting.... Hohaaa :)

TC

ohh, I forgot something:


AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH, SCH........... :cry: :? :oops:

Thx

TC

[Grenny]

:-(

[Grenny]

:-(

[Mars]

Keep at it Snake, you are doing the right thing.

If software is released with too many bugs, the program carries that reputation in the marketplace forever, even if subsequent patches remedy the faults.

If I ordered a new car, there is no way I would want it delivered on time if it meant it could not go around left hand corners. The same applies to software.

Murphy's law always applies :wink:

[luit]

Well i must make an apointment with the dutch training school for tanks and play it over there.... To bad

[Lone*star49]

...

Ssnake, I've calmed down since my last post to ya.. But

I'm changing my name to ~ Puss en the Boots ~

~ You dare to fight me ~ :?:


LS/PETB :lol:

[Frank.Martins]

So is there an estimate of when will the game be released?

[Scrapper_511]

A few more weeks or months ain't nothin'. I've been waiting sooo long for the sequel to arrive I'm just happy there are finally screenshots of it being posted. Feels good to be posting replies too...haven't done this since the waiting began.

[CommC]

Ssnake and Esim:

You are running out of time.

Lets review your competition (not exhaustive):

1. Operation Flashpoint Pro: A professional verson of OFP is already available for military training. The mod community has drastically improved the armor/gunnery model of the tanks and Bradleys. Its only a matter of time before this becomes widely available. The infantry model was already excellent, and with an improved armor model, this is becoming an excellent sim of the urban combat environment.

2. Joint Operations: The recent expansion pack includes tanks, including the M1, as well as other armored vehicles. The 3D terrain model is already excellent and includes wide open spaces with ranges in excess of 4000 m suitable for armored battles. The infantry model is already excellent, the addition of armor will make combined arms operations sims a real possibility.

3. America's Army: Its only a matter of time before armored vehicles are added to this.

4. US military-funded university grants to develop "inexpensive" military simulators: This program is in full force and has already produced "Full Spectrum Warrior". Its only a matter of time before armor is added to this mix.

May I remind you that Joint Operations was the best selling PC game this year. You are sitting on a gold mine. If you can get the resources together to get SB2 out, I expect you will easily recover your investor's money and make a tidy profit to boot. You already have an excellent terrain model. You basically already have the code to put enemy sighting contacts on the map to produce an M1A2.

I urge you to acquire the resources to get this finished and don't get too bogged down in too much detail. Getting the exact spin on the Leo XXyy sabot round isn't really going to matter. You are going to have to make some tough design choices to get this finished. I urge you to choose on the side of playability rather than trying to model every little detail.

[chrisotto]

I urge you to acquire the resources to get this finished and don't get too bogged down in too much detail. Getting the exact spin on the Leo XXyy sabot round isn't really going to matter. You are going to have to make some tough design choices to get this finished. I urge you to choose on the side of playability rather than trying to model every little detail.

That's the point - why try and join the big game, which you will lose against the big names, when you can have your niche? Especially if you can sell your niche-product to armies as inexpensive training tool?

[W@NKER]

Ssnake and Esim:

You are running out of time.

Lets review your competition (not exhaustive):

1. Operation Flashpoint Pro: A professional verson of OFP is already available for military training. The mod community has drastically improved the armor/gunnery model of the tanks and Bradleys. Its only a matter of time before this becomes widely available. The infantry model was already excellent, and with an improved armor model, this is becoming an excellent sim of the urban combat environment.

2. Joint Operations: The recent expansion pack includes tanks, including the M1, as well as other armored vehicles. The 3D terrain model is already excellent and includes wide open spaces with ranges in excess of 4000 m suitable for armored battles. The infantry model is already excellent, the addition of armor will make combined arms operations sims a real possibility.

3. America's Army: Its only a matter of time before armored vehicles are added to this.

4. US military-funded university grants to develop "inexpensive" military simulators: This program is in full force and has already produced "Full Spectrum Warrior". Its only a matter of time before armor is added to this mix.

May I remind you that Joint Operations was the best selling PC game this year. You are sitting on a gold mine. If you can get the resources together to get SB2 out, I expect you will easily recover your investor's money and make a tidy profit to boot. You already have an excellent terrain model. You basically already have the code to put enemy sighting contacts on the map to produce an M1A2.

I urge you to acquire the resources to get this finished and don't get too bogged down in too much detail. Getting the exact spin on the Leo XXyy sabot round isn't really going to matter. You are going to have to make some tough design choices to get this finished. I urge you to choose on the side of playability rather than trying to model every little detail.

I dont really think you can compare these games with SB Pro PE, as it is aimed as a tank sim, with the realistic gunnery in mind. many of these games you mention I would call games and not sim games, I have VBS1 (what you might call OPF pro?) also which is good as a infantry sim, but absolutely NOT as a tank sim, and never will be! and as an old gunner on Leopard 1A5DK, Í want this to be realistic, and would rather wait a bit more, and let them model every little detail :)

I understand that you want this to be released, so do I, but I rather wait a bit more and then have it without any significant bugs (hopefully its only a small delay) And Esim games doesnt have any competitors in this field that can live up to this tank sim. and this one isnt meant for normal gamers.

[sbrocker8]

I agree that this isn't meant for "normal" gamers, but I think CommC has a good point in that if eSim games wants to make some money, they need to be able to compete with the titles he mentioned, which means getting the software out and maybe having to patch it.

[Kingtiger]

I think You are wrong totally here now... I have waited 2 years and most other guys have waited longer (since that it was announced that a SB2 would be produced) for something new from Esimgames... And we all love this game because of its realism and accuracy....

NO WAY IN HELL IT WILL BE OK do give away the simulatorpart/accuracy in the game just because U guys want it now...

/KT

[dejawolf]

the leo sabot spin XXYY was perfected a long time ago. what's taking time, is getting the game pretty.

[Trekker]

I think You are wrong totally here now... I have waited 2 years and most other guys have waited longer (since that it was announced that a SB2 would be produced) for something new from Esimgames... And we all love this game because of its realism and accuracy....

NO WAY IN HELL IT WILL BE OK do give away the simulatorpart/accuracy in the game just because U guys want it now...

/KT

We who has waited for the game in two years is not the maincustomers (if we'r talking SB2), we will all get it. It's those who from time to time take alook at this site and ask when the game will be released. Noone of the regulars will mind if it takes one month or half a year more, but those who has never played SB1 will mind if the game gets delayed.

[CommC]

No doubt there is nothing out there now that comes close to what SB Pro PE or SB2 will be. But my point is that other people are working on this, and if esim doesn't get going, their sim may become irrelevant, as something much better may become available.

I would like to see them tap into the US university funding program, they may be able to get a grant or direct funding. The US military spent $10 million on America's Army, you'ld think they would be willing to shell out a few hundred thousand to move SB Pro along.

[Ratcatcher]

Well CommC I really dont think your arguement stands up with the list you've provided (Non exhaustive!)

From reading your post I think your a fan that really wants this game NOW. Well join the club old bean. The thing is the philosophy that E-Sim have had to take is one that, I believe, have served them well so far.

There are a number of examples where money has been thrown at a project to little actual advantage.

You also mention

Quote:
"I urge you to acquire the resources to get this finished and don't get too bogged down in too much detail. "
Well it's that detail that seperates SB from the rest. It's been designed from the ground up as a realistic sim and its approach is quite unparrelled from anything that I've seen before.

To take your examples...

1. Op Flahpoint - What a great FPS that was, now I admit I have'nt played the "pro" version but have played the orginal and the many many mods that came with it. I have to say it's one of the best games I've played, the terrain system really could be used to simulate armoured warfare but it was designed first and fore most as an FPS. Cobbling on a tank and APC model that is as realistic as SB1 would take a considerable amount of work. It's graphics are old and now sadly lacking oh and Flashpoint 2 ? Still waiting, and waiting and waiting.

2. Joint Ops - Oh dear, to mention that really does blow very large holes in your arguement. Best selling game ??? Yep, but so is The Sims !!! And I would have to say the Sims has probaly a more acurate combat model.. Nuff said.

3. Americas Army - Great game, very realistic representation of small arms combat systems, very enjoyable as a FPS, but its graphic engine is getting on, it cannot handle large areas AT ALL, and is totally limited with regard to introducing vehicles that will be little more than moveable cover.

4. US military funded"inexpensive" simulators... sorry cant think of any, hang on, there is one... now what was it called ? Ah thats it... STEEL BEASTS. Now that was a good game ! You mention FP Warrior. Yes thats a good representation of small scale squad tactics, and is very enjoyable. But its not a FPS, its not a sim and even if it was its graphics engine can't handle large areas so trying to portray Armoured units just wouldnt work.

I've read various things about E-Sim and how they have financed the project, I think its amazing they managed to achieve what they have. Their product is unique and I kind of hope it stays that way. This way they maintain total control over their product and yes it's a niche market but if thats the price we have to pay to get the mosrt realistic tank game out there than so be it !

[sbrocker8]

I have to agree that eSim games should go after a piece of the US government pie. I mean c'mon, they got the M1A1 down pretty well from what I've heard on the forums, so I think with some government cooperation and money, the guys at eSim games could do a killer M1A2...

[CommC]

I think at the core of this issue is that, as has been mentioned in a previous post on this thread, some of us are a little disconcerted that SB Pro is good enough for the Danish army, but not good enough for us "amateurs". My understanding is that the major delay is due to tweaking the armor model.

To resolve this, I propose that eSim consider an expanded beta test. Send the game out to a sampling of the SB crowd, including some expert and some "casual" gamers, and see what they have to say about the armor (damage) model.

The code would be deactivated after the test and the beta testors would still be expected to buy a copy of the final game, so sales/revenues would not be affected.

I, for one, would be happy to volunteer.

(I also suggest, if the armor model must be redone, that you focus on a core set of vehicles, say, the M1 and Bradley, release the game and then update the other vehicles with patches later.)

[dejawolf]

already doing that. just ask bluewings ;)
normal users are not valid for deciding about the armour values.
that can only be left to professionals in the field.

then we can let the normal users be in shock and awe about the details, that they would have never imagined even existed.
just to quote "i never knew the M1A1 fire control system was this good"

if steel beasts hadn't entered the scene, i am sure you all would've thought about the M1 tank platoon FCS as "good enough" :wink:

[12Alfa]

I think at the core of this issue is that, as has been mentioned in a previous post on this thread, some of us are a little disconcerted that SB Pro is good enough for the Danish army, but not good enough for us "amateurs". My understanding is that the major delay is due to tweaking the armor model.

To resolve this, I propose that eSim consider an expanded beta test. Send the game out to a sampling of the SB crowd, including some expert and some "casual" gamers, and see what they have to say about the armor (damage) model.

The code would be deactivated after the test and the beta testors would still be expected to buy a copy of the final game, so sales/revenues would not be affected.

I, for one, would be happy to volunteer.

(I also suggest, if the armor model must be redone, that you focus on a core set of vehicles, say, the M1 and Bradley, release the game and then update the other vehicles with patches later.)


1-"some of us are a little disconcerted that SB Pro is good enough for the Danish army, but not good enough for us "amateurs". "
Just where did you read this?. It is your view, and I can say that we "amateurs" know what we want and are working to give us what we want. And as a member of the armed forces I can also say there is a big difference in what a Army wants and us "amatures" want. Your comments are from a person who has some but not all knowledge of what is happening, i recomend that you wait and see what is the end result. If given the pro verson used by armies you would be complaining it's not what you wanted, so hangon for those that know what you really want.
Clear as mud?

2-Send the game out to a sampling of the SB crowd, including some expert and some "casual" gamers, and see what they have to say about the armor (damage) model.
What makes you think is not being done?

3-(I also suggest, if the armor model must be redone, that you focus on a core set of vehicles, say, the M1 and Bradley, release the game and then update the other vehicles with patches later.)[/

We have allready a person who thinks he knows it all, 2 would be more than we could bear, heheheh.

Perfection takes time, we have seen this in SB1, why would you expect any difference for the next release.

I too long for the release, but I don't want a sim that is full of bugs, of options that don't work.

there is still lots of fun in SB1, join the TGIF sometimes and you will see.

[Thiefcatcher]

@12Alfa, I think you and CommC are both right.
On one side I agree that it should be a "done" SIM before release. On the other side look at Sölder. Besides all the critic they got, people still playit it, getting their updates and they even made a good out of the bad and did a re-release and having the game again "new" is the stores.
Here, with a sim as SB, I think, are mostlikly "hardcaore" SIM player, who definetly understand the need of time in development but I think we all would acept that it is not perfect, but damn close to, and we can live with the one or other "bug" knowing, that eSim is working on it. And SB is, as far I understand, much more perfect as Söldner ever will be.
Well, just my point of view and I will wait until release, anyway :)

[TankHunter]

already doing that. just ask bluewings ;)
normal users are not valid for deciding about the armour values.
that can only be left to professionals in the field.

then we can let the normal users be in shock and awe about the details, that they would have never imagined even existed.
just to quote "i never knew the M1A1 fire control system was this good"

if steel beasts hadn't entered the scene, i am sure you all would've thought about the M1 tank platoon FCS as "good enough" :wink:

Ah Deja, dont you mean "I never knew the M1A1 fire control system was this piss poor?" :P

[dejawolf]

that's my opinion ;) but i just quoted someone from this site.

[19D30]

Hey SSnake, for a crewable and accurately depicted M2/M3, HMMWV...you release it whenever the heck you feel like it, I'll still be happy!

[Zingo]

OK. :cry:

Now, if it's not to much, could we get some screens, or perhaps ...a movie ...for christmas instead? :present: :red:

I'd like to snuggle up in front of the fireplace and see all new vehicles, see the new graphics. Watch the cats playing with the crunchies. :heartpump:
Thinking of all the things I am going to do to the terrain engine. Yes, it rubs the lotion on its skin ...

[Volcano]

Ah Deja, dont you mean "I never knew the M1A1 fire control system was this piss poor?" :P

Bah! You just got to know what you are doing. :P

[Ssnake]

I suggest that everybody be cool - You! Be cool! ;) We are aware of competing products. The impression that there are many fundamental problems that need to be solved before we can release SB Pro PE is wrong - this simply is not the case.
Like I wrote in my initial statement, it's a bunch of minor issues which in their combination prevent us to guarantee a release before Christmas. The assumption that a last minute rush of hiring additional programmers could speed up the development process is naive. The required process of coordination would actually put the development on hold for months before actual work cour commence.
While there may be competitors that may decide to move into our field of expertise one day, this move would require a major development effort and insecure gains for such a competitor. The market is small and essentially supports but a single product. Well, there already IS a product, so they'd need to be a lot better than we are (difficult, but possible), and be on par or cheaper with the license costs (hardly possible). Why would a competitor want to do that? It'd be a lot of pain and not even a guaranteed success to make it worthwhile.

[CommC]

We're keeping cool, with difficulty.

My final proposal is this:

The proposed price for PE is $125.... why not focus on the M1 and Bradley, release it for $100, then follow at a later date (a few weeks to a month) with the Leos and additional scenarios as an expansion pack for another $25?

You still get the same money and everyone is happy.

[tarball]

We're keeping cool, with difficulty.

My final proposal is this:

The proposed price for PE is $125.... why not focus on the M1 and Bradley, release it for $100, then follow at a later date (a few weeks to a month) with the Leos and additional scenarios as an expansion pack for another $25?

You still get the same money and everyone is happy.

I stand by my subscription suggestion. The Steel Beasts PE market is very niche. I can't imagine the market for this title being more than those of us sb.com, those from the "wargames" sites and the SIMHQ types. This is also due in part to the sticker price. At $125.00 US, why NOT a subscription?

I am a part of CommC's reasoning in that I am advocating that EsimGames go ahead and get it out the door and make your money now. Better to incrementally patch than wait for the perfection that takes so long with a small devel team like EsimGames.

The majority of us are not privvy and do not know the realities you face, but I would guess that this series of "little" problems that have colluded to threaten the release would be very easily ironed out in a patch.

I will again draw attention to the case of LOMAC. While it is not apples to oranges, repeated delays hurt this title and the title STILL needed patching (several times) anyhow.

EVERYONE KNOWS that contemporary sim software, as complex as it is, will almost ALWAYS be patched anyway. Most of us in "Western" markets (North America and Europe) spend major cash during the holidays (I know you know this), so getting some of this release cash NOW would be great for you and us. At $125, many players may have a better chance at a loved on "subsidizing" software at this price. I am sure this ammount is a pittance to many denizens of SB.com, but the economies in the U.S. and parts of Europe are very flat right now. Further, the dollar is only growing weaker by the day. Each day you wait is another day you'll likely consider upping $125.00 to perhaps $130.00 or so as the dollar has declined this much since the $125.00 price was announced.

To use one more "wargame"-oriented software example: Combat Mission Afrika Corps was released this time last year and the product still needed patching.

I respect that you will abide by your own principles in this matter and NOT release this before you are ready. I also realize that you won't give in to any "fan" pressure here certainly. I am only pointing out that there may be some merits to just getting it out the door. I would suspect that the devel and testing team are so close to this product for so long that alternate perspectives on this situation may be helpful?

My money is waiting and given that the price is in U.S. Dollars my money is losing its value day by day :lol:

[BipBip]

LOL

Some people (like me) never play with the M1, only with the Leo2.

Why not releasing the Leos (1 and 2) and then the M1 and M2 ? :twisted:


hehehe.

I suggest that everybody be cool - You! Be cool! ;) We are aware of competing products. The impression that there are many fundamental problems that need to be solved before we can release SB Pro PE is wrong - this simply is not the case.
Like I wrote in my initial statement, it's a bunch of minor issues which in their combination prevent us to guarantee a release before Christmas. The assumption that a last minute rush of hiring additional programmers could speed up the development process is naive. The required process of coordination would actually put the development on hold for months before actual work cour commence.
While there may be competitors that may decide to move into our field of expertise one day, this move would require a major development effort and insecure gains for such a competitor. The market is small and essentially supports but a single product. Well, there already IS a product, so they'd need to be a lot better than we are (difficult, but possible), and be on par or cheaper with the license costs (hardly possible). Why would a competitor want to do that? It'd be a lot of pain and not even a guaranteed success to make it worthwhile.

[Recce41]

Just pickedup SB Pro. Yes I have it. Damn it is 1000Xs better. Total reality.

[Bluewings]

Really ?

Tell us about it ! :D

Cheers . :3starSK:

[tx-413]

yes please do tell us about it......we would love to hear it :D

[twobravo]

No, don't.
Twobravo

[MasaV4]

Just pickedup SB Pro. Yes I have it. Damn it is 1000Xs better. Total reality.

I think that is bad joke - bang :evil: . But I can also say that full version SB Pro is fantastic and no doupt it is SB Pro PE too. We have tested and used it here in Armoured Brigade of Finnish Defend Force since september 2003. Graphic is so good as you can see into pictures. We have own map (50 km x 50 km) from our own trainig terrain. It based to Finlands digitalmap information. Instructor mode is usefull - host can fly over units like eagle and do anything what you want. We have 10 PC´s classroom with 4 x original Leopard 2 A4 TC´s and gunnery´s "joysticks" etc.

I can only say - beeee cool. :heartpump:

[Bluewings]

I was just setting up a bait . Not knowing if Recce41 is a joker or a Pro customer I was trying to fish him out !

MasaV4 , you seem like a happy customer :) , but I got a question for you : What are the specs of the PC 's you are using in that classroom ?

Graphic is so good as you can see into pictures
Indeed ! :hallucine:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[MasaV4]

I got a question for you : What are the specs of the PC 's you are using in that classroom ?

Win XP Professional SP 1, P4 3.0 Ghz CPU, 2 x 512 MB 333 DDR RAM, Club3D ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256 MB Graphics Accelerator. Instructors PC have 3 x 512 MB DDR.

[Bluewings]

rgr that . Thanks .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[sarcastic]

I woudnt be suprised if the people whining now about SB-Pro PE not being released on time is the same people that are going to whine about the bugs in this forum if the game is prematurely released.

I'm confident that snake and the rest of the guys are doing everything they can and will release a kick-ass-game when they feel done with it. I mean, these are the guys working with the game, who are we to question their judgement?

[Trekker]

Just today i deiceded to reinstall Battlefield 1942, it took me 20min, about 460mb, just to get all the patches and installing them, without them you can't play online. Please Ssnake, don't give me a SB like that....

[Recce41]

12 Alfa
Buying the pro will cost 500$ a copy. Most will not buy it. We use it for training tactics. I have used it. It is great. It does not work well over the net.

[MasaV4]

Buying the pro will cost 500$ a copy.

2000$ a copy - 10 licence classroom pack 18 000$.

[Ssnake]

...with 10 licenses being the minimum quantity, yes.

[Ssnake]

12 Alfa
It does not work well over the net.
It does, if used within the suggested parameters (most participants in a LAN environment, with a few remote workstations through dial-up network, and the server/host machine being properly connected to the internet with sufficient upstream bandwidth). I don't know which version you tested, so you may have observed one of the bugs that we found and corrected in the meantime.

[Recce41]

Masav4
The CF/school bought it for 500$ a copy. It is loaded on our CGTs for gunnery training and we use it for Power Point. In the CF we have 20 CGTs. It is also used modded on our LCGTs.

RCAC School Recce SME ( Snr NCO)

[twobravo]

And just when did they buy it?

2B

[Ssnake]

I don't think he's talking about Steel Beasts Pro. I would know if they had made a purchase.

[twobravo]

Yup
2B :casstet:

[Recce41]

S Snake
Well sorry, I run in to work, it is a Pro version. But not SB, It's a different software. Damn it is close. It is so damn close you cannot tell the difference. My mistake. I'm qual LCGT/CGT operator. 2 Bravo, your in NB? E mail me. Are you military? But I have seen the a Demo version of it. And I believe the Germain Army has SB on their sims? I know the org version of our software sucked. It's been upgrade twice. The software we have requires a master to config any different missions or mods. It cost 400$ per sim and 200$ per upgrade.

[Recce41]

SSnake
Are you adding any other vehs to the sim? ie Brit, Canadian, French,etc. I think it would be nice to have a Coyote Recce veh added? With its mast or remote surv kit. Due to we use it in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afganistan.

[twobravo]

CTC is lovely when you run by the sewage lagoon in the morning while being chased by bears. AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
2B

[12Alfa]

It will be frozen soon, and the bears will sleep also, your safe again, LOL

[twobravo]

I luv ironing my green monkey suit this early in the morning....there is suppose to be two creases on the front of my pants on each leg , right??....yawn... *&%$%&(!! looks like the CN railroad tracks...
BTW, wtf are my maps alfa?... don't make me hunt you down...I'm a fairly dangerous man before I have my timmies coffee...... oh now who went curling in my oxfords last xmas and didn't fix the scuffs? *&^%$!!!!
maps maps maps...... alfa, I know where you live.... :)
2B

[mapman]

Wow! 2B must be pretty upset to actually post in the forums!

[twobravo]

Naw , not upset, just over slept.

I'm much better now. I have my credit card sitting on my desk awaiting the launch date.

Deer Santa, can i huv a kopy of steellbests pro pee, fer chritmust? I huv bean a good fller all year. if u dont giv me ma copy I will unleash unworldly wrath upon your entire species and turn you all into food for our alien race.... er ah... I mean... ma pick up is broke dun agin..

72 hr without REM sleep is a fun ...... must build more scenarios...must have new maps...... :P

I'm coming for you alfa... must have cornhill map... 0 wants it NOW. :)

2B

[Lone*star49]

...

2B.. look at me.. :? take your meds..


LS :wink:

[twobravo]

Give me some of yours old guy... :)

[PS-SCUD]

look at me.. take your meds..

Hey! That's my line! :lol:

[12Alfa]

2B , had a partition melt down, will send soonest, remain calm, Feb is a long way off, and we both know you can turn out a mission in 24hrs. And oh ya , sleep, we don't need some stinkin sleep!
Rember I have 2 jobs, not 1, LOL

[twobravo]

Amazing what 6 hrs of sleep will do for a body. Santa better bring u a better computer alfa.
Feb... many days away. I requested date change due to me being out of the country 13th. CO will advise new dates soonest. That should work better for you and your trip as well. :cvcsalute:
2B