AI TC

[BlackDeath]

How do they know when enemy tanks are dead?

I explain: I was training on Instant action mod.
I fired, i fired then a high number of tanks were faced to me, most of them all dead. we couldnt see anything. but the TC, with his wounderful eyes, was able to detect enemy tanks in this heap.

an other situation: enemy assault on our position. I lost GPS so we werent able to see anything (there was smoke between me and them)
surprise, despite of the smoke and the out GPS, the TC detected a tank, far away from at least 3km...and unbuttomed
is the TC an eagle? or is a M1A1 a false M1A2 with CITV?

an other question, when the TC is disable or the gunner (just one of them)
how can it be possible to take their place while they are dead? (the gunner doesnt take the TC place, I order him to fire while on TC position...)

[Joe]

IIRC it has been discussed before, but it's too long ago, if anyone knows link... Ssnake could answer it best, has something to do with the program execution itself. And: a crew member cannot be killed, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the TC is injured you lose his fantastic ability to detect targets, the moment, when things are getting tough ;)

[BlackDeath]

IIRC it has been discussed before, but it's too long ago, if anyone knows link... Ssnake could answer it best, has something to do with the program execution itself. And: a crew member cannot be killed, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the TC is injured you lose his fantastic ability to detect targets, the moment, when things are getting tough
try to loose both TC and gunner. you wont be able to do anything with your tank. just look at it with an external view.
seems there is no more loader and driver.

[ShotMagnet]

The loader and driver positions were not modelled, at least not as positions that can be crewed. You can, however, lose the loader during a fight. Doesn't seem to dramatically affect reloading.


Shot

[Hector]

I have killed loaders driving fast thru trees i think. It takes longer to reload. tc does the relaod i think

[NEpi]

the AI TC has a knack for differentiating live targets from dead. he just "knows" is instantly. not the best realism, but that way the AI TC won't nag you about a dead target for ages, while you're trying to aim on the live one.

the extremely sharp eyes of the TC is sometimes peculiar, but it isn't always so. sometimes you could spot a target much faster than the TC,especially through smoke (it gets in it's eyes and makes it incompetent more than the other way around).
it is a problem that i don't think will be resolved in the next 10 years (at least until we will know better how the hell we can actually spot targets as humans), so we will have to live with it.

losing a crew member means he's disabled, and another one must take his place to operate the tank. when you lose a crewmember, you should put him somewhere till you can evacuate him, which i think is not modelled in SB (for example, stick him in the gunner's seat, and don't jump to that station till you evacuate the wounded). on the other hand, it WILL slow you down (not enough, IMO, but still), both in loading and in changing stations (you won't be able to operate the gunner's station in the first few seconds).

three things are lacking from wounded-treatment perspective:
1. the wounded doesn't take any room
2. all crewmembers are equally good at operating each station. you lose your TC, and someone else can jump in and do the job equally well.
3. there is no reference to wounded, meaning they are never evacuated, even if they bleed on the turret floor for an hour. this point is particularly serious IMO because it is an important aspect in the CO's decision making cycle which is not simulated.

[BlackDeath]

but when I loose both TC and gunner, but not the loader, the tank became uncontrolable. Does that mean that the loader cant do the TC&gunner&loader job at the same time? :)

[NEpi]

sure he can't!
loaders are dumb as hell, and knows nothing but pushing rounds and banging on stuff with a hammer.



you should believe me. i was a loader once. i should know.

[BlackDeath]

sure he can't!
loaders are dumb as hell, and knows nothing but pushing rounds and banging on stuff with a hammer.



you should believe me. i was a loader once. i should know.
ach stupid loaders... with a hammer huh?
anyway, cant say anything about that, in the game, they dont do anything when gunenr and TC are disable.

[Ssnake]

I think the original question has been answered, but to sum it up officially:

How do they know when enemy tanks are dead?

Because we're cheating. They have telepathic abilities here. What we need to do is approximate human behavior, not human perception and information processing. The latter method could be more accurate (in theory), but would require a prohibitive amount of computing time. Therefore we're cutting corners and randomize some things or bypass others in the hope that the shortcuts aren't too irritating to ruin immersion.

[ShermansWar]

Ze immersion, ve must have ze immersion.

[Elf`]

SO im NOT the only one to use the "I" word.....

[3Star]

I don't think reload time should be drastically affected at all. In a three-man-crew, the gunner's seat is empty. The gunner takes over the loader's (Or TC's, if he got nailed) position, and the TC fires the guns with his override. Just means you drastically reduce situational awareness.

NTM

[foehammer]

If you notice whenever a tank is destroyed the barrel always droops. That's how I tell. I'm not sure that is particulary realistic either. Same thing on barreled PCs such as the M2.

[Wahrborg]

If you look at a dead Jag or 901 you'll see that the same thing happens to the MG when it's killed. Guess thats something ESim added to all vehicles to tell if its dead.

[NEpi]

The latter method could be more accurate (in theory), but would require a prohibitive amount of computing time.

not necessarily. afaik, there are a few good models concerning SA.
the problem is you'll have a hard time having those camo effectivity reports among others. the models could be reinvented in a civilian manner if anyone likes to pay for it :roll:

SO im NOT the only one to use the "I" word
no, there are several thousands more. it is the most commonly used and most annoying buzz word since "multimedia".
if any of you can actually tell me what it is, i'd be glad to hear it.
one day i will get to the bottom of this.

The gunner takes over the loader's (Or TC's, if he got nailed) position, and the TC fires the guns with his override.

but then how can you jump into the gunner's seat? if you do, it means one of the crewmembers is there, and then the loader's station is vacant. i do agree that people with disabled crew shouldn't get into the gunner's station in the first place, but if they do, they should pay the price by either have longer reload times or by taking more time switching stations (longer response time overall).

[Ssnake]

I think the theory was that the disabled crew member would be put into the turret basket (it's big enough for that in the Leo 2, and with the camo net even reasonably comfortable) until it would be medevac'd. And because we thought that we had more pressing issues at hand back then, we left it at that. Which explains why in ALL tanks the position is vacant. There are other simplifications, too - e.g. the driver never dies, so that the tank can at least be moved to some other place, unless the vehicle is formally killed (and not just damaged beyond repair). ;)
Detailed 3D interiors may open the way for a better representation of things - but then we need 3D crew members as well, and they need to be animated, too. Lots, lots, lots of work. I'm not sure if the result warrants it.

[NEpi]

i think you're taking it too far.
from decision making perspective, i don't give a fuck how exactly my driver was injured. i just have to deal with it. also, i don't think that any gunner will ever "aim for the driver" anyway, so a probablistic approach might be good enough.

btw, another simplistic solution to damage control was to tell the player what's wrong exactly, and not let him learn that the hard way. should be a nice bonus for troubleshooting practice.

coming to think about it, putting the injured in the turret basket can have funny consequences, like when getting hit by HE fire, one of the crew could be heard in the intercomm saying "sorry, Bob". ;)

[Bluewings]

but then we need 3D crew members as well, and they need to be animated, too. Lots, lots, lots of work

Why not having known cinema actors for the crew ? eSim could ask them to do the voices too . :)
I wouldn 't mind having Clint Eastwood as a TC saying " Loader , gimme a sabot now , you punk !" :P

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Wahrborg]

LMAO :D

[BlackDeath]

think the theory was that the disabled crew member would be put into the turret basket (it's big enough for that in the Leo 2, and with the camo net even reasonably comfortable) until it would be medevac'd. And because we thought that we had more pressing issues at hand back then, we left it at that. Which explains why in ALL tanks the position is vacant. There are other simplifications, too - e.g. the driver never dies, so that the tank can at least be moved to some other place, unless the vehicle is formally killed (and not just damaged beyond repair).
Detailed 3D interiors may open the way for a better representation of things - but then we need 3D crew members as well, and they need to be animated, too. Lots, lots, lots of work. I'm not sure if the result warrants it.

we can wait extra tme ;)
anyway, how do real tanker know when enemy tanks are dead? When turret pops up?

[dejawolf]

it's hard to tell for sure.
during the gulf war, the americans could usually identify the dead tanks when the iraqis legtailed it outta them, or when the turret went flying.

[TopKick]

You must always fire at the target until it stops moving, changes shape, modifies its behavior, or blows up.

[Lone*star49]

You must always fire at the target until it stops moving, changes shape, modifies its behavior, or blows up.
...

:shock: Sounds right to me..


LS

[Bluewings]

You must always fire at the target until it stops moving, changes shape, modifies its behavior, or blows up.

Then , fire again . Just to make sure ... :evil:
If you hit a tank 500 times , even if it 's still alive it will have gained too much weight to be able to move ... 14kg per rod ... :roll:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[NEpi]

keep shooting till it stops to react.

[BlackDeath]

challys in GW2 fired 2 to 3 times on each T-55 because rounds just made a small hole from side to side...whithout killing them.
that tanks were too light and not enough armored...

[dejawolf]

well, i say, if it doesn't stop moving, shoot the tracks, and the gun.
that oughta put it out of serious action.
if the crew is too stupid to bail out, drive up on the side, and pop a candypopper in the side hull.