question for artillery experts

[pamak]

Ok,

I have seen in many games that the designers claim that receiving artillery fire in woods multiplies the effect of fire due to splinters from tree branches and so on.
In a way they say that being in open is better than be in woods.
I would like to ask the experts here if the above is true.
I understand what they say but on the other hand i am thinking that there are some other issues.
For example, i am thinking that woods can still stop fragments and even if some fragments produce splinters, i expect that the kinetic energy of the "new splinters" will be much less than the original of the fragment that caused it.
So at the end i am not sure,if the above claim is right or wrong.

[luit]

The claim is right if troops are in the forest we always use high explosive rounds with proximity triggers the splinters of the trees will do a lot of damage

[Wahrborg]

I would claim the opposite. "Modern" artillery rounds explodes a bit up in the air anyway, and having trees and stuff in the way makes em less effective. you also have much more to cover behind in woods.

Whit old artillery who detonates on impact, i would say that your statement is true

[Lone*star49]

...

:? hmmm, could go either way.. IMO, as watching WWII movie/s Band of Brothers, Easy Company was in Ardens, the Black Forrest, I think, during the Battle of the Bulge, and the Germans used pre set explosives in tops of trees, along with incoming Artty, that cause great damage, with limbs flying, splintered pieces of smaller wood, and just, trees falling, etc..

They really had very little places to hide, cept in good fox holes..


Thinking of a tank in the trees, when the shit hits the woods/artty strike, I would think, damage is very possible, with "speeds" of hard, big or small wood flying.. I mean, even a tank could be swayed or rocked, and the crew inside, their heads would be slamming against the walls, if a tree hit them at a high enough speed..

LS

[pamak]

I would claim the opposite. "Modern" artillery rounds explodes a bit up in the air anyway, and having trees and stuff in the way makes em less effective. you also have much more to cover behind in woods.

Whit old artillery who detonates on impact, i would say that your statement is true

Is not t still possible to be true for modern artillery also?
For example now i think that it might be not accurate to claim that it is only the fragments that produce splinters.
It might well be the air burst itself.
So if you have an air burst on the folliage, you will produce more numbers of "dangerous pieces" flying around you..

On the other hand it is possible that inspite of the above , to be actually more safe against artillery inside woods for different reasons.
For example,it is more difficult for the enemy to adjust fire.

I have to say i am confused about this whole issue and i have not found anywhere in army manuals ,comments about this .

I have seen some norms for various effects (destroy ,neutralize and so on) against troops in open or entrenched ,dictating certain amount of shells to be fired .
I have not seen the presence of woods to dictate a less amount of shells .
I would expect that if the fire inside woods was more effective, then we would have less amount of shells for destroying or neutralizing a target for example.

[112TYR]

Well, I can't speak for the artillery, but the mortar platoon we had attached to our company always told us that mortar rounds were much more effective in forests - set to proximity, not impact.

[sabot_ready]

Woods
Quick fuse on HE shells in woods may cause detonation in the trees. This may decrease the effect if the shell goes off high in the trees, or it may increase the effect by acting in the same manner as an air burst.

VT fuse is useless in woods unless the angle of fire is very great, in which case most bursts occur at their normal height.

Woods have little effect on low-angle quick fused HE fire (other than they may make observation difficult), while high-angle fire is about twice as effective as on open ground. Personnel in the edge of woods are in great danger from direct-fire HE, as almost any shot into the tree will act as an air burst.

Smoke in woods will take about half as much ammo, since wind is reduced.

from
http://www.gruntonline.com/US_Forces/US_Artillery/arty5.htm

[TopKick]

Either way, incoming artillery usually causes involuntary defecation however fused.

[112TYR]

Woods
Quick fuse on HE shells in woods may cause detonation in the trees. This may decrease the effect if the shell goes off high in the trees, or it may increase the effect by acting in the same manner as an air burst.

VT fuse is useless in woods unless the angle of fire is very great, in which case most bursts occur at their normal height.

Woods have little effect on low-angle quick fused HE fire (other than they may make observation difficult), while high-angle fire is about twice as effective as on open ground. Personnel in the edge of woods are in great danger from direct-fire HE, as almost any shot into the tree will act as an air burst.

Smoke in woods will take about half as much ammo, since wind is reduced.

from
http://www.gruntonline.com/US_Forces/US_Artillery/arty5.htm

So in plain english, mortars and tank shells will be much more effective in woods, while artillery will not notice much difference....

[chrisotto]

There are basically 3 different types of fuses:

1. impact
2. proximity
3. timer

1. impact: Classical impulse detecting fuse. Feel something hard, pull the trigger. doubled with a delayed fuse for underground targets .

2. proximity: modern, radar techonology fuse. uses a small radar sensor to detect height above ground (I think 30m), then fuses. The proximity fuses has double-function with a impact fuse - whatever command comes first.

3. timer: Think of it like you standard egg-clock in the kitchen. You turn a knob / screw, which sets some cogs, which start counting down. Fool-proof system, which can go wrong if you hold the fuse when loading the shell into the tube. Or your gunner is slightly... slow with numbers. Or no one remembers in which direction to turn the timer, jamming the cogs. etc.

[112TYR]

Fool-proof system, which can go wrong if you hold the fuse when loading the shell into the tube. Or your gunner is slightly... slow with numbers. Or no one remembers in which direction to turn the timer, jamming the cogs. etc.

Isn't that....the OPPOSITE of fool proof? :D

[3Star]

It's called satire..

NTM

[112TYR]

No shit? :wink:

[Hub]

Both German and American troops suffered terrible losses fighting in the Hurtgen Forest in late 1944, due to tree-bursts. Any foxhole had to have good overhead cover to be of any use. It was even rumoured that soldiers were directed to try and avoid the reaction to "go-flat" when artillery started coming in, instead moving to the base of a tree and trying to stay upright- the idea being to present less of a target surface to splinters flying downwards...

[Trekker]

A modern equipt soldier with splinterprotection can't suffer much by tree splinters, can he?

[112TYR]

I don't know how much a regular flak jacket stops, but I doubt the thighs are covered with body armour. Shrapnel in the thigh will bleed you out pretty quickly.

[chrisotto]

Or get to that big femoral artery. Just as ugly & quick.

Furthermore, wood splinters, as I would understand, would be more frangible than metal ones - that would make many little splinters flying around, hitting the parts of the body that would be exposed.

[pamak]

I think i found the answer.

Take a look on the following diagram

From

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-90/Appb.htm#top

(fM 7-90 Appendix B)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-90/figb-1.gif

From what i understand , forest actually provides better protection, inspite the wood -splinder effect of airbursts

[Lone*star49]

Or get to that big femoral artery. Just as ugly & quick.

:arrow: Furthermore, wood splinters, as I would understand, would be more frangible than metal ones - that would make many little splinters flying around, hitting the parts of the body that would be exposed.
...

:arrow: Ever seen the photo, of a piece of straw that went right thru the middle of a telephone pole, half out the other side, and the back of it sticking out the backside of the pole..?

:shock: True event, when it was driven by a Tornaodo.. winds in excess of 200mph..

:?: Now, what kind of speeds can be achieved by artty explosives blowing apart a tree ?
Or throwing ground rocks, limbs, splinters, anything down to, even fine dirt..?
Sand blasting comes to mind here..

:shock: even a rodent (teeth, bones, and claws comin at ya.. at speed)

:lol: Think ya have a point there Chris..


LS

[chrisotto]

Pamak, the table is good, very good. But 60mm mortar rounds come at a high angle (i.e. almost perpendicular), possibly exploding upon impact with tree crowns, meaning that much of the explosive powers is lost at a greater height.

[Wahrborg]

I would say that heavyer rounds whit a flater trajectory have a higher chanse of hitting the tree crowns, then one whit a high angle.

If you happen to come across a book about the finnish wars whit the russians in the 40's, they will most likely mention that the finns prefered to have small caliber, short shooting mortars whit them in battle, deployed only 100 meters behind the line, whit a fireobserver that was in direct phone contact whit the mortar pieces, who directed the fire in between the trees when possible... The finns are often mentioned as experts of using small caliber mortars in woods... I think they where experts in a whole lot of other things to, but thats another storie :)


**edit, spelling**

[pamak]

I would say that heavyer rounds whit a flater trajectory have a higher chanse of hitting the tree crowns, then one whit a high angle.

I think also the same.
As a side note, the appendix gives similar results for heavy mortars.

Reading about this stuff, i was wondering about the tank HE rounds.
What type of fuse they use and who is setting the fuse, or when ? :?

[Wildfire]

I hope this answers your question:

There is a fuse called PD (point detonating). It can also be set to delay, most effective against bunkers, armor and defilade. That, in my honest opinion, is the best way to get effective arty strikes in high defilade. However, a soldier has a better chance of survival in high defilade than in the wide open, because there are too many places to take cover.

:lol:

[Trekker]

Reading about this stuff, i was wondering about the tank HE rounds.
What type of fuse they use and who is setting the fuse, or when ? :?

To my knowledge all tank HEAT is impact fuse. And the damage a 120mm does to a forest is massive, far greater then i ever thought before i saw a Leo fire into a forest..

Bofors 40mm has a round called 3P, it uses the lase value to detonate.
Magnetic stripes on the sides of the round set the fuse when it's enter the cannon, blast away and it will detonate on the lase value.. A 8 round burst with the CV90 and 3P is awsome..
http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/missiles/bofors/

[EchoLima]

Well all I can say is the procedure I was tought and use.

Woods = point detonation
Open (unprotected troops) = proximity or timed.

This since firing into woods will allmost allways render a treeburst in about 30% or more of the incoming shells. Also setting the fuze to proximity can and will in most cases give a detonation too high up from the ground, or this side of the forest from the guns point of view if we are talking artillery. Proximity fuzes are in sweden set to the same amount of meters as the caliber of the gun in centimeters. i.e 15.5 howitzer = under 15m giving an airburst 15 meters up in the air. For 120mm mortar the detonation will occur at about 8m (I think...) this since the shrapnell is smaller and lighter than in an artillery shell.

yes tree splinters and other ground objects will increase the amount of damage, but firing into woods will also decrease the amount of shrapnell from the shells flying in the air, a lot of them will be cought by treetrunks hence rendering the shell less effective forcing you to fire a greater number of shells to get the same effect.

[Bluewings]

EchoLima , your KFOR page ~and all the links~ is first class stuff . Pics and videos are nice , shame I don 't speak Swedish ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

[EchoLima]

Thanks allways nice with some encouragement.