Heads Up... Wars on.

[GsMcAmis]

They just broke into programming to anounce the US nuclear inspection team has been ordered to evacuate Iraq.

5:40am est.

Is this it then?

Also... they are estimating the heaviest fighting to last 2 weeks this time. "During this period of time we expect the fighting to be very intense" (Another one of those MSNBC unknown sources.)

[GsMcAmis]

Also... many new gaps have appeared in teh defensive berms across the Kuwait/Iraq Border. (Since last night)

All UN overflights have been cancelled.

[GsMcAmis]

Confusion in the UN ranks...

Two reporters, both from CNN:
First reporter "Un vehicles are streaming past us, southward out of Iraq and into Kuwait City"
Second reporter "The UN teams in baghdad have recieved the word the US has advised them to evacuate, but they have not recieved the word from the UN headquarters in NY."

Apparantly the US advice isn't enough for them. Of course they are governed by the security councel, but what the fuck...over. bombs are about to fall. Twer it me... I'd be listening at E packed at VAC and gone at UATE.

I reckon they are giving them 24 hours or so...

[dejawolf]

so they're bombing baghdad.

why's that?
warning saddam about that the US is coming?
so he can go into his underground bunker network with (supposedly) bin laden,
and plan a counter-attack on USA? :P
ok i am not being very serious about this very serious matter.

even when saddam is dead, and all the other states in the "axis of evil" is bombed to smithereens, the war on terrorism is not over until bin laden is dead.
he's the guy who attacked USA after all. and you haven't punished him for his crimes yet?
nuff said.
i'll silently sit back now and listen to what you have to say.

[Kingsman39]

Hypothetically, you have a nasty case of herpes and begin treatment. After a few weeks you still have the disease, but are making positive steps toward healing. Without warning, a nasty cancer that was in remission, flairs up again. Are you going to ignore one while treating the other?

[imported_Rogue6g]

hey Kingsman,
That's a very disturbing analogy. I hope you've stocked up on lidocane cuz the U.S. is gonna play doctor.

[GsMcAmis]

Deja...

Last I heard there were (2 or 3?) operations currently going on in afgahnistan... currently as in as we speak. Right along the Paki Afgahn border. Don't reckon we are ignoring him at all.
Of course the US only has just a handful of people that do this "war" thing ya know. ;)

Now to counter what I just said... (cause i am weird like that) The fact that the US is talking alot about Bin Ladin right now (again) indicates to me he actually gave us the slip and recently too. It's when you don't hear diddly-squat from teh government on "The_Hunt" that a capture is about to happen. Two weeks silence from that end and something serious, large (for that type of operation), and with a high probabillity for success is going down. Ain't you learned a thing in the past 12 years? (joke)

The US gets quiet (or starts echoing itself, saying nothing new...) something big is about to happen.

Remember that super kewl joke Werewolf gave us? The one with Iraq in the bar with a sawn-off shotgun under his coat?
Well now this is outside that bar... and theres this little but fricking cunning dude in between Iraq and the US, thats the UN inspectors. US guy has been real quiet while approaching Iraq leaving only his last statement to echo on the scene "Times Up". Iraq knows the US is there but thinks this little guy with the blue hat is his ticket out of the place (and a damn good way to play for time and maybe even his license to keep packin heat).
But the jigs up and everyone knows it when the US says to the blue hat fella:

" Move."

[GsMcAmis]

Hehe...
Word just came down teh wire that Saddam has appointed his 2 top aids and his son to run 3 of the four seperate sectors during the war.
He divided the country up this time cause last war we anhialated his command and control in the first 2 days of the war.. I have no idea how he expects four seperate command and control areas to fair any better than one.
Still...
I'm taking bets (for kicks... no autographed Ssnake pics ;)) as to which area falls first.
Saddams, one of his two aids, or his sons.
It could be from straight up military whipping or one of his sectors surrendering as the war progresses (without putting up a fight)

I'm laying odds on his son being the first to fall. The guys had a silver spoon in his mouth his whole life and has the rest of his life ahead of him.

[Werewolf]

Deja...

Remember that super kewl joke Werewolf gave us? The one with Iraq in the bar with a sawn-off shotgun under his coat?
Well now this is outside that bar... and theres this little but fricking cunning dude in between Iraq and the US, thats the UN inspectors. US guy has been real quiet while approaching Iraq leaving only his last statement to echo on the scene "Times Up". Iraq knows the US is there but thinks this little guy with the blue hat is his ticket out of the place (and a damn good way to play for time and maybe even his license to keep packin heat).
But the jigs up and everyone knows it when the US says to the blue hat fella:

" Move."



LOL! Excellent - really, really, EXCELLENT!

I can see it all now. The little dude with the funny blue hat harumphing, hemming and hawing, thumping his hairless bony little chest and saying "You can't talk to me like that - I won't move - I won't", Iraq, behind him puffing his chest out and making brave sounds like "yeah man - come on. I'm ready for ya - I'll kick yur ass USA", right up to the point when the US walks right over the top of the little guy in the blue hat like he wasn't even there and says to Iraq "You got till sundown to get out of town - if you're still here then you'll have seen your last sundown ever".

[Mpat120]

.....and the little guy in the blue hat says "I wont approve of this." The US says "so what, I just wont pay my tab in your bar!" and the dude in the blue hat shuts his mouth and moves out of the way.........he realy needs the money.

[GsMcAmis]

From what Mr Powell has just indicated...

Bush to Saddam: "You got till sundown to git outta town mister."

God Bless Texas!

[Wahrborg]

Haven't it occured to you guys that this guy in the funny blue hat, and his organisation, acctualy trying to save lives?
War for many of you guys is sitting in front of the TV, eating pizza and watch smart bombs hitting their tangets on CNN... But What do you think war is like for them who are in the middle of it?? not as a soldier, but as a civillian who have no idea of what this is all about... who is sitting in the shealter during the nights wondering if she/he gonna survive untill the morning... wondering who of her friends, fammily, relatives has died tonight?? cuz we all no that even whit todays tehcnoligy misstakes will happen. And civillians will die....
Maby saddam has mass destruction weapons, maby not... Maby iraq is a threat to USA, maby not......
But for fuck sake! Show some respect for all of those who gonna die, and all of those who gonna lose their loved once the following weeks, and stop this braging bullshit talk of how cool and easy it will be to win this war. And stop petronising those who are ready to try every singel sullution to end the conflict whit out wasting lives!!!!

[Mpat120]

Ok WB, im only gona agree with a couple of your statements.
1) People are gona die, thats a fact of war. That I understand as an active duty soldier.
2) It maynot be a cakewalk, that is also a fact of war.
3) I have great respect for those that are over there to fight.

Now i got something for ya,
1) I will go if my country calls. Thats my duty, and I have before.
2) I will say what I want, when I want, how I want. I have earned this right with my own blood.
3) If civies aint smart enough to get out of the line of fire thats their fault, it aint like they dont know a wars on.

[Werewolf]

originally posted by Wahrborg

Haven't it occured to you guys that this guy in the funny blue hat, and his organisation, acctualy trying to save lives?

That's what they say. In actuality he is playing politics. Lives don't enter into the equation just power.

War for many of you guys is sitting in front of the TV, eating pizza and watch smart bombs hitting their tangets on CNN...

For some but not all - there are many veterans on this forum who have been in combat. I for instance was in Lebanon and served on board USS John Rodgers during that crisis. I went on the beach every day to service the marines sattelite communications gear. I was there when the John Rodgers fired the first shots in anger from a 5" gun from a US warship since the Vietnam war. Later I served on the USS Richmond K Turner at Grenada. No - I wasn't personnaly shot at then (though I have been shot at before) but that doesn't mean that I or anyone else on this forum has any less appreciation for the horrors of war than you. The fact that I and many others did serve only enhances our understanding for those horrors. Implying that we don't understand or appreciate the horrors of war and it's consequences is arrogant, insulting and patronizing.

But What do you think war is like for them who are in the middle of it?? not as a soldier, but as a civillian who have no idea of what this is all about... who is sitting in the shealter during the nights wondering if she/he gonna survive untill the morning... wondering who of her friends, fammily, relatives has died tonight?? cuz we all no that even whit todays tehcnoligy misstakes will happen. And civillians will die....

Yes - civilians will die! That is a realistic and unfortunate consequence of war. But let's put the responsibility for those deaths where it belongs. The responsibility belongs on the head of Saddam Hussein who has murdered millions with chemical and biological weapons many his own people. The responsibility belongs with the United Nations who has refused for 12 years to enforce it's own resolutions ordering Iraq to disarm and yes some of the responsibiliy even resides with the US and the 1991 coalition for not finishing the job then.

Maby saddam has mass destruction weapons, maby not... Maby iraq is a threat to USA, maby not......

Maybe? Maybe? Maybe? The president of the United States has determined that maybe is an unacceptable level of risk and if the polls are right and I believe they are the American people agree with him.

But for fuck sake! Show some respect for all of those who gonna die, and all of those who gonna lose their loved once the following weeks, and stop this braging bullshit talk of how cool and easy it will be to win this war.

Lighten up - humor is a wonderful stress reliever. Some cry, some shout, some retreat into corners and hide, some seek solace in God and some make light of crisis situations. We each deal with the stresses of life in our own way. So to paraphrase you "For fuck sake! show some respect for those of us who deal with stress with humor".

And stop petronising those who are ready to try every singel sullution to end the conflict whit out wasting lives!!!!

Nobody is patronizing you and every single solution short of war has been tried - multiple times - in the last 12 years to rid the world of Saddam and the threat he and Iraq represent . Where do you draw the line? Will war only be an option when some country in Europe has been attacked? Will it take the Eifel tower crashing to the ground to convince the French, a chemical weapon exploding on a Berlin Strasse to convince the Germans, a dirty bomb detonated in Stockholm, Sweden or a nuclear weapon detonated in New York City, USA to convince the rose colored glasses, can't see any evil in the world crowd that there are bad people in the world and that sometimes the only realistic way to deal with them is to kill them or lock them up? There's plenty of historical examples of that principle - some folks are just plain evil and not all the good intentions in the world will change them (though the evil folks would like you to believe that it will - gives 'em more opportunities to screw over the good).

Like it or not we live in an age where some tough choices are going to have to be made if in the long run the world is to be a safe and happy place to live. To get there some will have to change their ways or die. The choice is theirs. If they make the right choice then everyone benefits. If not - then...

As an aside I believe the Iraqi people will welcome the US forces as liberators, the army will in general surrender and the only real fighting will be done against the Republican Guard and other special units. Afterwards Iraq will be rebuilt and will become a strong healthy democracy and a force for good in the middle east (both Japan and Germany provide historical precedent for my prediction). One can only hope.

[Wahrborg]

Now i got something for ya,
1) I will go if my country calls. Thats my duty, and I have before.
2) I will say what I want, when I want, how I want. I have earned this right with my own blood.
3) If civies aint smart enough to get out of the line of fire thats their fault, it aint like they dont know a wars on. [/quote]


1 and 2 is answers to questions who have never been asked, and for rights that newer have been questioned..

Nr.3 is just a selfish, unmoral, and hopfully not thaught trew statement that i hope no soldiers in the world stands for...

[AlphaSierra]

We are all tired of Saddam and his stalling, but is war the only solution? Won't US troops die? Why didn't the coalition finish him of 12 years ago? One thing is for sure war makes children fatherless and women widows and that cannot be the ultimate solution?

The sadest thing is that the UN council plays a game right now that suits Saddam well. People are having demonstrations around the world, but are they demonstrating against Saddam or Bush/Blair??? I don't think that they know themeself!!!
The best thing that could happen is that Saddam and his nasty bunch would go into exile somwhere (Libya). Isn´t there a prize on the mans head and if not, why?

Some words of wisdom:
Those who want's war least are those who have to fight it - soldiers!

No one can make me belive that the soldier, no matter what country he comes from, fight for peace, freedom and glory! He fights for his family, his own life and those he serve with and for the possibility to get home in one piece.

Thats my two cents in this debate

[imported_Rogue6g]

Hey Wahrborg,
Aren't you supposed to be speaking German and not Swedish...oh that's right we AMERICANS took care of that little problem for ya back in the 40's. Guess that's what we do best...Take care of problems for our"friends". Lighten up man, the crosshairs aren't on your front slope. Just for your peace of mind, Americas greatest achievements have been through war that's because we do it the BEST way we know how...by destroying Armies not civilians. But not all soldiers wear a uniform.

[Lone*star49]

...

Hey all.. I have to say that the "shared views" that I've read for the "most part" have been fair (in language, etc.) pretty much for all the different post regarding whats happening as we write and have been writing...

But may I just say.. No One likes the "truth" shoved down their throats.. time and time again..

"Sharing" information and views is one thing, but "Preaching" it.. turns anyone off..

So for the sake of this forum and it's members (all makes and models).. could we just let what is happening.. happen.. and let History bear its fruit..

Thanks one and all.. LS :thumbup:

[Wahrborg]

originally posted by Wahrborg

Haven't it occured to you guys that this guy in the funny blue hat, and his organisation, acctualy trying to save lives?

That's what they say. In actuality he is playing politics. Lives don't enter into the equation just power.

new: Yes, maby u got a point there. I meant the guy in the funny blue hat as a symbol to all who has an oppinion in the matter

War for many of you guys is sitting in front of the TV, eating pizza and watch smart bombs hitting their tangets on CNN...

For some but not all - there are many veterans on this forum who have been in combat. I for instance was in Lebanon and served on board USS John Rodgers during that crisis. I went on the beach every day to service the marines sattelite communications gear. I was there when the John Rodgers fired the first shots in anger from a 5" gun from a US warship since the Vietnam war. Later I served on the USS Richmond K Turner at Grenada. No - I wasn't personnaly shot at then (though I have been shot at before) but that doesn't mean that I or anyone else on this forum has any less appreciation for the horrors of war than you. The fact that I and many others did serve only enhances our understanding for those horrors. Implying that we don't understand or appreciate the horrors of war and it's consequences is arrogant, insulting and patronizing.

new: yes, i know that i by this part of the statement made opportunity for many here to tell about their meritlist. But i dont understand why u feel that i am arrogant, insulting and patronizing when u can exlude you self from the group of people watching CNN, just by reading my text?

But What do you think war is like for them who are in the middle of it?? not as a soldier, but as a civillian who have no idea of what this is all about... who is sitting in the shealter during the nights wondering if she/he gonna survive untill the morning... wondering who of her friends, fammily, relatives has died tonight?? cuz we all no that even whit todays tehcnoligy misstakes will happen. And civillians will die....

Yes - civilians will die! That is a realistic and unfortunate consequence of war. But let's put the responsibility for those deaths where it belongs. The responsibility belongs on the head of Saddam Hussein who has murdered millions with chemical and biological weapons many his own people. The responsibility belongs with the United Nations who has refused for 12 years to enforce it's own resolutions ordering Iraq to disarm and yes some of the responsibiliy even resides with the US and the 1991 coalition for not finishing the job then.

The question of right or wrong, and responsebillity, is not, in any way, what i brought up whit this statement.

Maby saddam has mass destruction weapons, maby not... Maby iraq is a threat to USA, maby not......

Maybe? Maybe? Maybe? The president of the United States has determined that maybe is an unacceptable level of risk and if the polls are right and I believe they are the American people agree with him.

Same here. Right or wrong is not my point here. Thats what i was trying to say by, "maby, maby not".

But for fuck sake! Show some respect for all of those who gonna die, and all of those who gonna lose their loved once the following weeks, and stop this braging bullshit talk of how cool and easy it will be to win this war.

Lighten up - humor is a wonderful stress reliever. Some cry, some shout, some retreat into corners and hide, some seek solace in God and some make light of crisis situations. We each deal with the stresses of life in our own way. So to paraphrase you "For fuck sake! show some respect for those of us who deal with stress with humor".

Making jokes about thousands of life is not my idea of humor... remember that this is taking place here and now... in 70 houres when u sit and laugh to a joke like this, maby a mother is dieing, or maby even a US/UK friend of you or me.

And stop petronising those who are ready to try every singel sullution to end the conflict whit out wasting lives!!!!

Nobody is patronizing you and every single solution short of war has been tried - multiple times - in the last 12 years to rid the world of Saddam and the threat he and Iraq represent . Where do you draw the line? Will war only be an option when some country in Europe has been attacked? Will it take the Eifel tower crashing to the ground to convince the French, a chemical weapon exploding on a Berlin Strasse to convince the Germans, a dirty bomb detonated in Stockholm, Sweden or a nuclear weapon detonated in New York City, USA to convince the rose colored glasses, can't see any evil in the world crowd that there are bad people in the world and that sometimes the only realistic way to deal with them is to kill them or lock them up? There's plenty of historical examples of that principle - some folks are just plain evil and not all the good intentions in the world will change them (though the evil folks would like you to believe that it will - gives 'em more opportunities to screw over the good).

New: We all live in the fear of september 11'th. Even in a little shithole like sweden.
Again. if all sollutions have been tryed or not is not my point...


Like it or not we live in an age where some tough choices are going to have to be made if in the long run the world is to be a safe and happy place to live. To get there some will have to change their ways or die. The choice is theirs. If they make the right choice then everyone benefits. If not - then...

New:Agreed. The world is a damn unfair and unsafe place. Many will die in the future trying to make it a better place. some of them will die a heroic death while giving his life for a friend on the battlefield. some of them will die in the arms of their mother in a cold, wet bomb shelter... let's not make jokes of either of them... instead we speak of them whit respect, and send them a prair. no matter what nationality or religion..

As an aside I believe the Iraqi people will welcome the US forces as liberators, the army will in general surrender and the only real fighting will be done against the Republican Guard and other special units. Afterwards Iraq will be rebuilt and will become a strong healthy democracy and a force for good in the middle east (both Japan and Germany provide historical precedent for my prediction). One can only hope.


..
'

New: Don't get me wrong. i have the deepest respect for the guys who will put their life on the line in the following weeks.

//Wahrborg

[AlphaSierra]

Hey Wahrborg,
Aren't you supposed to be speaking German and not Swedish...oh that's right we AMERICANS took care of that little problem for ya back in the 40's. Guess that's what we do best...Take care of problems for our"friends". Lighten up man, the crosshairs aren't on your front slope. Just for your peace of mind, Americas greatest achievements have been through war that's because we do it the BEST way we know how...by destroying Armies not civilians. But not all soldiers wear a uniform.

What happened 60 years ago is one thing, but that was then, wasn't it!!! There were no other possibility then were there? The whole world was in flames and US went in to war 1941, two years after it had started and because of the japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, and all we europeans appreciate that, don't think otherwise. Btw UK, US, French, Canadians, Polacks, Russians ended the war together. But that is no excuse to go to war for that reason in 2003, 60 years after.

I do not like real war, that's all and i do not like when people tries to glorify it....

[Werewolf]

No one likes war Alpha but I believe the point is that the western nations are today repeating the mistakes of 65 years ago. IMO if a strong leader had dealt with Hitler in the 30's and enforced the Treaty of Versailles instead of sweeping his actions under the rug then the hell unleashed on Earth called WWII never would have happened.

Today the world is in a similar situation. A madman who is responsible for the deaths of millions is in charge of a rogue nation with a history of aggression.

The world can face up to that fact and deal with it now or it can ignore him and appease him and face the potential of another hell called WWIII.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[GsMcAmis]

Please...

No one here believes the loss of life, any life, is a laughing matter.
I personally believe that when a human dies, an entire universe goes with him. After all if it's "all a matter of perspective" which for everyone of us, it somehow is, then each perspective on life is a unique outlook on the universe as a whole.

Instead, please take the humor in the vein in which it was intended. That is to say governments often do tragically funny things. The really funny thing here is that none of it is really funny at all. And that really is truth. Call it gallows humor if you want.

After all... If you can't laugh about it then what do you do?
I refuse to roll up into a whimpering ball. I refuse to give into an over zealous sense of rightous indignation that might cause me to overkill the situation.
So, like these other folks, I laugh about it.

Have you never hit your elbow in just that spot? We call it the funny bone. Makes us laugh like nitros-oxide but it feels like a mule kick... and all around basically sucks.
Did you know laughter and crying originate from the same exact area of the brain (and for nearly the same reasons)?

Friend WahrBorg... this is what people do when they face adversity. What is more, I believe you know this as well as anyone.

We laugh until we cry, or cry until we feel better. There is hardly any difference.

Don't be astounded when people laugh at these situations. It simply can never mean they don't care.

Instead be afraid if joking stops.

Passion is God's gift to mankind. Humor is a form of passion. "Be ye luke warm and I shall spit you out of my mouth" And that really is the Gospel. So here we are hard wired and commanded by The_Man to laugh or cry and never to be cool to the point of apathy.

Don't think for a minute that the innocents in the warzone don't matter to me (or any of the other fine and noble gentlemen on this forum). Because they very much do. They always will.

So please sirs.... lighten up already.

God Bless!

[Werewolf]

We are all tired of Saddam and his stalling, but is war the only solution?

No - we could all just lay down and let Saddam have what ever he wants and do what ever he wants to whomever he wants.

Won't US troops die?

Of course they will - lucky for the rest of the world we are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make it a safer place. A sacrifice from which all - even our enemies and so called friends will benefit from.

Why didn't the coalition finish him of 12 years ago?

Politics my friend. Politics. The political situation at the time was such that if Saddam had been eliminated there would have been a huge destabilizing power vacuum left in the mideast. No one was willing at the time to be an occupying force so the decisions were made that led to a military mission of get Iraq out of Kuwait. Once that was done it was over. There was no mandate or desire to knock off Iraq - just get it out of Kuwait and hopefully teach it a lesson about how civilized nations behave towards each other.

One thing is for sure war makes children fatherless and women widows and that cannot be the ultimate solution?

War is always the *ultimate* solution and how any educated person can believe otherwise is incomprehensible. History abounds with the proof of it. We abhor it and we certainly don't seek it but sometimes war is the only viable solution to a problem.

There always exists, however, the problem of deciding when war is the only viable solution.

The uncomfortable situation that exists today in the UN flows from that conundrum - is war with Iraq the only solution left?

The USA believes it is - the rest of the world doesn't. We will act on our belief and hopefully we are right and after it's all over the world will be a safer better place for it.

The sadest thing is that the UN council plays a game right now that suits Saddam well.

No. The saddest thing is that free, peace loving people who only want the best for themselves and others don't have the will to make hard choices and do what is necessary to ensure that they and theirs will have peace and prosperity in the future. And what is required now is WAR because that's what it sometimes takes to rid the world of evil.

[snip]
The best thing that could happen is that Saddam and his nasty bunch would go into exile somwhere (Libya). Isn´t there a prize on the mans head and if not, why?

That's the whole idea. Get out of Dodge Saddam - you and your cronies or the USA is coming to get you.

As for a prize. There's a $25 million price on Osama bin Laden's head. No one's stepped up to collect it yet and he isn't even the dictator of a country. What would make anyone believe a reward on Saddam's head would do any good?

Some words of wisdom:
Those who want's war least are those who have to fight it - soldiers!

Agreed...

No one can make me belive that the soldier, no matter what country he comes from, fight for peace, freedom and glory! He fights for his family, his own life and those he serve with and for the possibility to get home in one piece.

Agreed...


Thats my two cents in this debate

[Wahrborg]

Hey Wahrborg,
Aren't you supposed to be speaking German and not Swedish...oh that's right we AMERICANS took care of that little problem for ya back in the 40's. Guess that's what we do best...Take care of problems for our"friends". Lighten up man, the crosshairs aren't on your front slope. Just for your peace of mind, Americas greatest achievements have been through war that's because we do it the BEST way we know how...by destroying Armies not civilians. But not all soldiers wear a uniform.

Here we go again......
Now could you please explain to me exaktly where in the text i wrote that "We dumb, hippiewannabees, swedish are not greatfull for what allied soldiers did for europe in wwII" ??
You are questioning the oppinion that u belive that i have. But i have not and will not tell my oppinion in this matter...
Read the text once more and see what it says...
Then replye in a way like Werewolf or GsMcAmis, who is giving their point of weiv, and explaining their oppinion in a good way, cuz its damn good and interessting to hear all sides of a story..

[Mpat120]

Let me explain point 3,

If a civie decides to place a weapon in his/her hands, I dont concider them a civie anymore

If i park a tank, ATGM..ect in your front yard and you stick around knowing full well that that weapon system will be targeted, and get wounded or killed, its not personal, but you should have had the smarts to get away from it.

[Kingtiger]

Let me explain point 3,

If a civie decides to place a weapon in his/her hands, I dont concider them a civie anymore

If i park a tank, ATGM..ect in your front yard and you stick around knowing full well that that weapon system will be targeted, and get wounded or killed, its not personal, but you should have had the smarts to get away from it.

Totaly agree with U there Mpat120!! if A civie stays close to a weaponsystem in war, they should have it....

but its still aint fun fore them, they may be forced to stay in the area by the fact that they cant move during combat, so they prefer to sitt tight. and then the soldiers roll in and they cant move.... then they are trapped....

[wdboyd]

Salutations,

I am a gulf war vetran and a retired Marine. I said 'retired' not X marine.

Why did'nt we finish the job in 1991? The U.N. mandate was ONLY to liberate Kuwait. Not conquer Iraq.

Historically, being defeated by the United States ends up being a blessing in disguise. It was the United States that effectively defeated the Nazis and the Japanese in WWII.

Afterwards, through the Marshal Plan and the Military Governorships in Europe and Japan... Eruope and Japan were rebuilt and set on the path to prosperity and fruitful democracy. To this day, these two countries are prosperous. What other victorious country has so consistently treated it former national enemies so well?

After WWI the peace treaty with the defeated Germans was very harsh. Germany was bankrupt and humiliated. That's a situation ripe for the rise of someone like a Hitler. But I digress. The bottom line is, Iraq will ultimately be better off. Wait and see. Iraq is centrally located in the region too. That's very strategic too. Iraq has oil wealth that will permit it to rebuild quickly.

There have been comment made about the potential lives that may be lost. How many die each day on our highways. How many die each day of a drug overdose. How many die each day from the consequences of using alcahol and tobacco products? My point is... keep life and death in perspective. We in the states murder tens of thousands of babies in their mothers wombs every year. Who voices concern for them? At least dying liberating the people of Iraq from the dictator Hussien is worthwhiile.

I am curiuos as to what will be found in the aftermath of the conflict that will implicate the French, German and Russians in supporting Saddam Husseins regime. I suspect they have much to hide and are VERY nervous about it being found out.

Ah... we live in interesting times. But ultimately, Iraq isn't the worlds most dire problem. Islam is. Islam and the Billions of Western world dollars buying Mid East Oil. That money props us non democratic regimes in the region. Their cultures are backwards. They create very little. They buy almost every advanced thing they have from the west. They are armed from purchases from the west, China and Korea. Islam is their bond.

Their hatred for Isreal is based upon the Koran. They have no choice. We support Isreal, by proxy they have to hate us too. Their paradise can't come until every Jew is destroyed. How many of you know this about thier faith?

It is rediculous. In life, Islam condems fornication, adultry and drunkeness as a sin, but then promises many virgins and much wine for any adherent that commits a suicide killing. How's that for dumb and contradictory?

Islam is a bigotted and intolerant religion. Wherever is spread, anti semitism grows even though no Jews may live anywhere near the area. It's adherents in the U.S. love the freedom to practice their faith our country offers.... but go to any majority Islamic country and see how much religious freedom there is there. Little or none.

Mark my words... our polititions won't speak of it... but Islam is the underlying cause of the tensions being experianced now and the ones to come in the future.

OK... I'm getting off my soap box. ;)

[Kamatz]

originally posted by Werewolf


The responsibility belongs on the head of Saddam Hussein who has murdered millions with chemical and biological weapons many his own people. The responsibility belongs with the United Nations who has refused for 12 years to enforce it's own resolutions ordering Iraq to disarm and yes some of the responsibiliy even resides with the US and the 1991 coalition for not finishing the job then.

Two things, millions was a little bit extreme. Nobody knows how many he actually gassed. But millions is quite a bit over the top. Second, like it or not..but the USA sold bio weapons to Saddam in thee 1980's. And, the USA even supported both Saddam and Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. Both.

So my point is, blaming this on the UN and/or Saddam alone is a little bit weak. Saddam would probably be dead if the USA hadn't supported him against Iran. That of course, we will never know.

I must say, Stormin' Norman seems to me to have the best reason to talk about this issue. And he said that todays war on Iraq can not be justified, even though Saddam is a possible threat. It is unfortunate that the US forces couldn't go all the way in 1991.


Oh, an one last thing.....since Sweden was one of few countries in Europe not invaded by Hitler I have a hard time seeing them speak German. And fact is, the most important help the US offered Europe and mainly the UK during WW2 was the cargo ships and convoys. When the US forces enetered the war Germany was already on the retreat. However, without thoses supplies it's doubtfull that the UK would've been able to hold the Germans off.