History Channel: Challenger

[SFViper19D]

I was watching the History Channel this morning and they had a feature on the Challenger 2 and it's performance during 2003. I have to say I was quite impressed. Too bad it's relegated to the SB Pro Fantasy list along with the a2 SEP. It would have been a fine addition.

Hey, someone out there put a bug in the ear of the British Army!

[taskforce-panther]

like to play a game with everything including arjuns god help us all lol even a t69 hell iseen them before wouldnt wanna be in one but be fun to shoot one

[stuart666]

I was watching the History Channel this morning and they had a feature on the Challenger 2 and it's performance during 2003. I have to say I was quite impressed. Too bad it's relegated to the SB Pro Fantasy list along with the a2 SEP. It would have been a fine addition.

Hey, someone out there put a bug in the ear of the British Army!

That was a very good television programme, I noted when it was on before that even the diehard American M1A2 nuts on Tanknet were impressed. :) 1 Milan and 7 RPG hits and no penetrations has to win some kind of award. Quite impressive views of the fighting compartment too, considering its still classified.

Incidentally the loss report for the Challenger2 killed by friendly fire can be found on
http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/publications/other/challenger2_boi_25mar03.pdf
It makes facinating, if sobering reading.

[BlackDeath]

by the way, how many chally were lost?
i heard i least 20 Abrams were disable, most by RPG and IED. But what about Chally?

[3Star]

None by enemy action that I'm aware of.

NTM

[BlackDeath]

even not IED? i always heard about lot of american casualties but not british ones... as if there was no ennemy action against british forces...

[stuart666]

There was only one Challenger lost through friendly fire, there was none lost due to enemy action. However there was one close call. I gather (and im going on sketchy information, largely based upon the TV programme) that a squadron of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards was undertaking something akin to a US thunder run, when a tank was ambushed. The Iraqis knew what they were doing and managed to score at least 7 RPG hits (there have been reports of something like 99 fired at it, probably most of which missed or failed to detonate) and at least one Milan ATGM (which hit, possibly on the thermal sight). Almost all the sights were knocked out, so the commander rather sensibly ordered the driver to back up. Probably due to the fact there was no visibility, the tank backed up into a ditch and pulled the tracks off. So for something like 5 minutes the tank was a the complete mercy of the Iraqis, who despite climbing on it and jumping up and down on it, proved completely unable to kill it, before the rest of the squadron returned and showed them the merits of HESH. Impressively the tank was repaired and back in service shortly afterwards.
As for other kills, I gather there was at least one, probably 2 CVRTs (I think Scimitars) knocked out by an A10, and one warrior destroyed in Baghdad by an IED. Not a lot of Tank v Tank combat, but a Squadron of Challys knocked up a T55/BMP battlegroup for no loss.

As for no combat, been plenty of it, just that the US networks dont report it for reasons best known to themselves. If you want a good example of what goes on in Basra look at the guy who won the VC for taking the RPG fragments in his head and STILL was able to drive his warrior back to safety. I gather over a tour that particular section had got through 6 warriors which were all worn out by being shot at. Hope they managed to rebuild them, or they are going to be running short...

IEDs seem to be more common in Baghdad. (Though they have happened in the south) I know the British army had a lot of experience of dealing with them in Northern Ireland, but it seems highly likely the US army has developed its own tactics of dealing with them. Perhaps its more due to the fact that most of the crazies slowly went north since thats where most of the TV coverage is. Its interesting to note most of the bombs going off now appear directed at the civilian population rather than the US army.Still plenty of work in Basra though.

[Gibsonm]

Luckily here in Aust we get a more balanced mix of footage. Say some a few weeks ago now of some Warriors being attacked with multiple Molotov Cocktails (whilst not an IED per se the crew were still obviously effected esp. as they bailed out).

I didn’t know about the CVRT’s, I have some mates in QDG so I’ll have to find out if they belonged to them or not.

Also, a bit OT, but was watching the Edinburgh Tattoo on NYE (shown here then even though I gather its recorded earlier in the year) and the commentator said something about it being the last time that all the Scotish Regts’ Bands were on Parade. Are they cutting the Bands or the actual Regts in another round of rationalisation?

[3Star]

You also have to realise that it takes a bloody big bomb to blow up a tank. I think in the last two years, there have only been three such bombs in all of Iraq, all happened to be in the American section. Amtracks and Bradleys have also been obliterated by humongous bombs, I'm not sure if they were tank-sized or not.

Frankly, if a bomb will pop the turret off an Abrams, I don't think a Challenger would be too happy if it got hit by it either.

NTM

[flyboy]

Frankly, if a bomb will pop the turret off an Abrams, I don't think a Challenger would be too happy if it got hit by it either.
Yep I,ve got that pic of the Abrams with the turret blown 60ft away from the hull.Heard it ran over three anti tank landmines stacked one ontop of another(jury rigged together??).I know during D-Day at Normandy the Germans rigged 500 pound aircraft bombs to anti tank mines for a bit more of a punch.Just wanted to hear what really happened.So much Bs flying around the net I just want to find out the truth.

[Gibsonm]

Well of course a while ago but closer to home, one of our Centurions ran over a Viet Cong IED which when it detonated lifted the 50 odd ton tank into the air and it landed on the rear of a M113 traveling with it.

[BlackDeath]

Frankly, if a bomb will pop the turret off an Abrams, I don't think a Challenger would be too happy if it got hit by it either.
At least 3 crewmembers were killed, not sure for the last one..
we must have in mind there is far more M1s fielded than challys in a more dangerous area..

[stuart666]

Luckily here in Aust we get a more balanced mix of footage. Say some a few weeks ago now of some Warriors being attacked with multiple Molotov Cocktails (whilst not an IED per se the crew were still obviously effected esp. as the bailed out).

I didn’t know about the CVRT’s, I have some mates in QDG so I’ll have to find out if they belonged to them or not.

Also, a bit OT, but was watching the Edinburgh Tattoo on NYE (shown here then even though I gather its recorded earlier in the year) and the commentator said something about it being the last time that all the Scotish Regts’ Bands were on Parade. Are they cutting the Bands or the actual Regts in another round of rationalisation?

I think that it was the QDG, but I would have to check on that. One of the guys involved pulled a squadie out of the burning wreck, and would have got a VC, but as it was a friendly fire incident he got the George Cross instead. No, it didnt make much sense to me either....

Saw the warrior footage, looked worse than it was. Couple of the crew received nasty burns, and there was a concern the vehicle would brew up (I gather some rubber caught fire) but they were able to put it out and drive the vehicle away. Shows the different kind of contingencies that have to be considered in AFV designs these days.

Some scots regiments are merging, including the Black watch. Sounds worse than it is, the actual regiments (including the Black watch) will survive as a battalion within a newly formed scottish regiment. The actually battalions will be based in various locations and soldiers will transfer between them within the new regiment. In actual fact there are a number of regiments that are being recast or merged at the moment, and it probably has a lot to do with the fact that some regiments consist of only one battalion, wheras other have more recruits than they can deal with. As much a means of changing the recruitment boundaries as it does cutting costs. Glad to see the RSDG is being preserved however, and nobody is touching the RTR, whom may God preserve.

The reason why no Challengers have been destroyed in IEDs may be due to the fact (or rather the impression ive gained), that they dont seem to patrol with them. I gather there is still at least a squadron in the Basra area, but perhaps only sortie them when there is a requirement. For example, when those 2 special forces guys were 'arrested' by the Iraqi police, I gather some challengers were responsible for breaking through the police station wall. In most other cases it appears the warriors or the armoured landrovers do the patrolling. That is perhaps due to the fact the latter 2 can carry infantry, dont look as confronational which upsets the natives, and helps preserve track mileage. Considering the Challenger 2 is due to stay in service till nearly 2040, that may not be an unimportant consideration. Please careful of jumping to the conclusion its a safer area, its quieter than Baghdad at the moment certainly, but a couple of months ago during the iraqi police incident, things were pretty mean indeed. Many landrovers (and their crews) have been lost through IEDs .

3 Star, the size of IEDs the insurgents are using, you could probably have knocked out an Iowa class battleship let alone an Abrams or a Chally. No fault of the Abrams here.

Re Centurion, the Australian army loaned the British goverment one of theirs for the A bomb tests in Oz in the 1950s. By some miracle it survived an A bomb going off 500 feet away, and in fact was still a runner when the dust cleared. The same tank also survived service in Vietnam (which it saved its crew from an RPG hit) and now serves as a gate guardian, where the locals try to ignore the fact it glows in the dark. :wink: Hell of a remarkable design.

[Ludwigmeister]

Re Centurion, the Australian army loaned the British goverment one of theirs for the A bomb tests in Oz in the 1950s. By some miracle it survived an A bomb going off 500 feet away, and in fact was still a runner when the dust cleared. The same tank also survived service in Vietnam (which it saved its crew from an RPG hit) and now serves as a gate guardian, where the locals try to ignore the fact it glows in the dark. :wink: Hell of a remarkable design.

Wow..... that's pretty sweet. Talk about a 65 ton rabbits foot.

Ludwig.

[Ludwigmeister]

*Accidental double post*

[Ludwigmeister]

Correction, 62.5 tons. With that said.. keep in mind it is a significantly heavier tank than the M1A1. Significantly slower as well, not that the speed has anything to do with blast survivability as is being discussed in this thread, but the weight/material mass difference sure does.

Ludwig.

[3Star]

Eh? Centurion is not heavier than an M1, coming in at just over 50 tons.

NTM

[Ludwigmeister]

Eh? Centurion is not heavier than an M1, coming in at just over 50 tons.

NTM

My bad, I thought we were talking about the Challenger 2. Were we not?

Ludwig.

[Kamatz]

Speaking of TV and tanks, yesterday the Discovery Channel (at least here in Europe) aired a program about the Ten Greatest Tanks of all times. Normally I find these programs to be full of opinions and not facts...and yesterday's show might fall into that category.

At any rate, the number one tank was said to be the Leo2 - as they showed us the Leo2 in all its glory, they were actually showing us the Swedish Strv-122. And I can't help but being impressed by what the Swedes have done to the somewhat old Leo2. There's a realtime moving map linked up to friendly forces - much like on the M1A2, I guess. And I can't help but think that the friendly fire episode between the two Challenger 2s would most likely not have happened if the Chally had had the same system. Like the Lt said, the only radio communication between tanks they had to do was when talking about the enemy..everything else, own positions and such, was handled by the link system. (We're not as lucky as to see that system in Pro PE, are we?)

All in all, it was a reasonably informative and enjoyable program. Not overly serious and objective (one of the experts analysing the tanks was the vocalist for Iron Maiden...)..but what the heck, it's entertainment, and I was by all means entertained.

[W@NKER]

Why do I always miss these programs on discovery........Whenever I watch discovery It's always about fishing or some other boring stuff.

What was the program called that were on yesterday?

[Wahrborg]

Why do I always miss these programs on discovery........Whenever I watch discovery It's always about fishing or some other boring stuff.

What was the program called that were on yesterday?

Hey, whats wrong whit Rex Hunter's Fishing Adventures?! .. ;)

[W@NKER]

Hehe yeah that's the name of that crappy fishing show. :)

[taskforce-panther]

Correction, 62.5 tons. With that said.. keep in mind it is a significantly heavier tank than the M1A1. Significantly slower as well, not that the speed has anything to do with blast survivability as is being discussed in this thread, but the weight/material mass difference sure does.

Ludwig.


actually fully loaded with all the ammo and whatnot yad be pushin closer to 70 tons in an m1

[BlackDeath]

69.7 tons