StarForce

[Bluewings]

Posted Sun January 08 2006 16:23
Let me start by saying I am a developer and a Webmaster of a number of major Game related sites.

I have 25 years experience in the Business thus I make very sure that I have fully researched what I comment about. My credentials precede me, I do not agree with or endorse software piracy. However to play my existing Starforce games I have had to crack them.

Issues concerning Starforce.

1. They are based in Moscow so exempt from a number of the laws that we in the West rely upon. The 3rd Party Companies that use their copy protection are not exempt.

2. In Windows XP Starforce gives Ring 0 (super user level access) to Ring 3 (Standard users). In normal English this basically means that any third party application such as Trojans or Viruses are given the ability to have full access the both software and hardware.

3. As many of you will be aware XP does have DMA/IDE issue that’s dates back to its creation. In which if packets are lost during the reading or writing of a disk. XP interprets this as an error and steps the IDE speed down. Eventually it will revert to 16bit compatibility mode rendering a CD/DVD writer virtually unusable. In some circumstances certain drives cannot cope with this mode and it results in physical hardware failure (Most commonly in multiformat CD/DVD writer drives). A sure sign of this step down occurring is that the burn speeds will get slower and slower (no matter what speed you select to burn at). Starforce on a regular basis triggers this silent step down. Until it reaches the latter stages most peeps do not even realise it is happening.

Excluding the Hardware failure, the normal way to cure this is to uninstall all the CD/DVD drivers and the Primary/Secondary IDE controllers. (Then reboot). If you did not know about Starforce, you can now be faced with another problem. Normally windows searches and reinstalls the drivers. However with Starforce present this can cause the system to either fail to find the hardware or fail to find the drivers. Creating the illusion that the hardware has failed.

This gets even worse if you have SCSI hardware/virtual drives. SCSI virtual printer driver (basically any SCSI hardware/Virtual drivers present) As these may have to be removed before the other hardware becomes visible.

4. Because Starforce are aware of these issues (Including the Trojan Gateway) this is exempt from the EULA and could be deemed as "Gaining access with malicious intent". Not only would starforce be liable, but also the 3rd party company that endorsed/used that application.

Ubisoft really need to do themselves a favour and dump Starforce. They have earned their quotas on the existing titles. So there is no reason not to make full bypasses available in a legit format.

An example of my system using Starforce from a Ubisoft Game. My Athlon 64Bit 3200+ Clawhammer started running like its components where stuck on treacle, My Burn proof DVD writers created more coasters than they use at a state banquet and overall it was about as stable as a one legged man in a hurricane.

It's not my intention to put the industry out of business (They are achieving that under their own steam), however using so called copy protection that is nothing more than a glorified Trojan Gateway is not the way to stay in business.

Trojan Gateway:
I do not make such a comment lightly and I have proof of this occurring and of exploits already using it. I have openly challenged Starforce to prove otherwise and their response was not to comment or to refer to the EULA (As if the EULA exempted them from installing malicious software). Although to be fair technically Starforce is not malicious, it just leaves the door wide open for software that is.

In my professional capacity I am aware that a number of corporations that had been previously flexible about staff playing games during normal breaks. Now ban the usage of any 3rd party Games in the work place (Because of the Starforce security issues). Also a number of us who review games are now refusing to touch any games protected by Starforce as we are not prepared to compromise our system stability and security anymore.

So basically if us reviewers will not handle them and the customers are now boycotting them. How exactly do Ubisoft intend to continue to sell games?


.....................................
See there : http://www.glop.org/starforce/

Cheers . :3starSK:

[SFViper19D]

Thanks BW, time to look into that removal software!

[Storm91]

Starforce is nasty stuff Viper.Its a communist program that will destroy your computer literally-depending on the game you got and where you got it from.
.I just got a dual core system and no way in hell will i ever install a SF game on it ever....I keep a back up amd system for starforce games.Some more info from the gamers viewpoint

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/show_msgs.php?board_id=314159267&topic_id=24147473

Dont mind me i dont like commies-first hand experience east germany.

[TankHunter]

So Fred, you going to get rid of SH3?

[Homer]

Here is a site that lists the games that uses SF protection: http://www.similarities.org/starforce.html

Here is the util to clean up the starforce drivers after uninstalling the game.

[Skybird03]

Damn, I really hate SF and had problems with it, minor ones, but still problems, so I got rid of the two games that implemented SF on my machine, only to find out that the SF deinstallation tool back then did not work reliable. I ended up by reinstalling my whole system (image copy of installation from separate HD).

Some weeks ago I bought an electronical PC dictionary (Langenscheidt-Collins). It works nice and well. But nowhere it was said - that it also comes with this SF crap. So I am haunted by it again, and this time because of some professional software, not gaming-software. This is another thing I ike about SF: that they do not tell you that it is installed, and that they do not tell you that it does not get deinstalled once you deinstalled the software it came with.

And the last thing I really love about SF is the heavy censorship that took place at their forum when I checked it for some time, months ago. Reports of people that their polite questions got deleted. That criticism, voiced in a polite manner, got deleted. That everything got ignored or deleted if it raised even the smallest doubt about SF beeing harmless, and fully reliable.

I do not care if some people make their living by developing this crap, if they do it at my cost. It is malware, and it causes problems and damage for many people. They are hypocrites, and much of what they have said about SF in the past was a straight lie. I think it needs almost some criminal energy to be engaged in a software project like that. Making their money by accepting to do damage to others. Great.

And by not telling a customer on the box that he is buying a SF-infested piece of software many people, like me with that dictionary (99 Euros) are even prevented from actively decide for or against it. Damn sickos, hope they will end on the dark side of the moon.

[Bluewings]

So Fred, you going to get rid of SH3?

I use a "No-CD Crack" . And it is perfectly legal .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Ssnake]

The use of NoCD cracks may appear legitimate, but still can be a violation of license conditions - in other words, a breach of contract with the publisher of the game. Furthermore, cracks invoke actual risks. If someone is clever enough the disassemble the compiled code, bypass the routines checking for the CD presence, and recompile the executable, he can just as well add code to, say open a port on your computer or install a root kit or a keylogger and other nasty stuff.

Point is, any crack is a modification of the software source which usually is forbidden by the software license conditions. I'm not saying that everybody using a NoCD crack is a software thief, but the situation may not be as easy as "common sense" may suggest.

[Skybird03]

I think that depends, Ssnake. Some years ago the FS2002 community in germany and austria - and beyond - had a big discussion on the differences between european and american laws concerning what it is that you get when buying a sotware. Where in America you essentially just buy a right to use a software for a pre-defined period of time, in Germany for example the direction is more at actually having bought not the use of a software, but the software itself, understood as a material possession - not just a license to use it. What I call "material possession" DOES NOT include to change and sell the code yourself, for example, it does not allow hacking for profit, and such, all the things common sense dictates to label as illegal. The copyright remainns fully intact. The difference between both legal understandings (license to use versus possession) has fundemantel consequences. In FS, the trouble was about mods that at that time started to become more and more commercial and were made available via downloads for which an online registration was needed. Sometimes the number of registration attempts was limited, bringing people into trouble who reinstalled their systems several times for whatever a reason - that was what brought up the discussion that even was reflected by dedicated FlightSim-print-medias. As a sidenote it was concluded by some people, that noCD-cracks are legal according to most european laws as long as the are used for personal use only, whereas American laws easily declare them as beeing illegal in principle.

Personally, I myself handle this thing like this: I am in no need to use noCD-cracks, but if I would, I would consider it to be my right to use them as long as I do not make the software installing on several machines so that - in theory - other people could play the game on a different machine while I play on mine at the same time. One copy - one running game, that is the rule for me. The original copy that was bought should only be active on one system at a time, and only by me, or in my household. When I buy a book or music CD I have the right to deal with it to my liking as long as I do not violate copyright laws. I may cook it, plaster the wall with it, copy it on cassette or tape, rip pages out of the book, use it to light a camp fire, whatever. By the GEMA system in Germany I may even copy music from a CD or from radio to cassette and give that cassette to a friend. All of us who went to school in the 80s have done that, right? And it was perfectly legal - and it still is. The GEMA fees are included in every data media that is sold, without it the prices for music CDs would be lower in Germany.

With software my right to use the "material presence of data media and it's content" should be different? "Ohne mich."

For that reason I always rejected to buy online addons that come with a need to register each installation online. If the company dies, so dies my availabilty to install that software in the future. Considering the many small private commercial addon-projects that started to pop up for FS during the early years of this decade, that is a thought worth to be considered. We already have seen that kind of trouble taking place with some private developers.

I am no lawyer, but as a flightsim fan I remember that debate back then quite well. Some comments and analysis back then, both print media and online, were written by lawyers. It was quite a big thing some years ago.

What those commentators with knowledge on laws also fought about in public is this: if the company's location or the place where the software was bought decides what legal canon must be used in case of a dispute about "possession" versus "license to use". It was said that in the EC it is not important if an - for example - American developers writes his American license agreement for a product he sells in Europe then. In case of a legal dispute, that would be overruled by European laws for the simple reason that it was sold and bought not in America, but Europe - no matter what is written in the license. Most people do not know this, but I heared confirmation for this repoeatedly. Many queries and complaints are said to be prevented by people not beeing aware that they are in possession of the legal tools to file them, because they do not know their rights to do so. they bought it in eiurope, red the american license - and think that it represnets the final word on legal conditions, which is wrong - it is overruled by European laws (the same is true with European products beeing sold in America: here American laws can overrule european licenses). Monitoring the daily news it appears to me that more often than we usually think this is a hot iron in European-American trade relations on company level as well.

[Skybird03]

One hundred! Third star! :)

[Bluewings]

Regarding Silent Hunter III and the "No-CD Patch" , I believe that I must warn people about one important thing .

A fake "No-CD Patch" has been released on the Net not long ago . That patch is in fact a Trojan (Exploit virus) which overide and change 3 files in your system32 folder :
Those 3 files are :
#Winlogon.exe
#ODBC32.dll
#SFC.dll

If you install that patch , you cannot start your computer anymore . Furthermore , it uses the low level Ring0 to actually mess up your Motherboard Bios to the point that your PC will only stay on for 8 minutes before to shutdown , not allowing you enough time to run an antivirus from the DOS prompt . It disable any low level reformat too ! :o :mad2:

The only option you have is to re-flash your bios using a floppy , then you can proceed to re-install your operative system .

The rumor says that StarForce themselves did release that fake patch to "protect" their interests and fuck up people 's computer who want to by-pass SF protection .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[mapman]

So Fred, you going to get rid of SH3?


I use a "No-CD Crack" . And it is perfectly legal .

Cheers . :3starSK:

Interesting conversation. Thank you for bringing it up Fred.

This begs the question...is Starforce only for CD Titles? I was considering purchasing/downloading SH3 from Direct2Drive yesterday at:

http://www.direct2drive.com/193/product/Buy-Silent-Hunter-III-Download

Since no CD is involved, can I assume no Starforce is involved?

[mapman]

Wow....just followed the directions to check for Starforce in the Boycott Starforce site and it is on my system!!!

The only game on the list that I have had anything to do with is Enigma: Rising Tide, and that was just the downloaded demo.

Removing now...recommend others check too, even if they think they have never installed it.

[Lone*star49]

Wow....just followed the directions to check for Starforce in the Boycott Starforce site and it is on my system!!!

The only game on the list that I have had anything to do with is Enigma: Rising Tide, and that was just the downloaded demo.

:arrow: Removing now...recommend others check too, even if they think they have never installed it.
...

I just chked, and found just one: ODBC32.dll 213KB.

And it shows it was installed on 8/8/99 at 3:17am :shock:

WTF was I doing back then at that time in the morning..? :shock:


What is the procedure to find where it is and get rid of it?

It was located in.. folder C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM


Thanks BW's for the heads-up


LS

[Bluewings]

Marc , as far as I know , D2D 's version of SHIII does NOT come with SF but you can only install SHIII 4 times max .
After that , you must get in touch with D2D to get a new key , which is not a problem as they are very kind to do so .

Enigma uses SF protection indeed . Nowadays , most demos are protected as cracks to turn them into full working game are existing .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Bluewings]

LS , do NOT touch ODBC32.dll as it is a valid WinXP file .

If you had the exploit virus , you would not be there talking to us on the Net . Trust me :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Lone*star49]

LS , do NOT touch ODBC32.dll as it is a valid WinXP file .

If you had the exploit virus , you would not be there talking to us on the Net . Trust me :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:
...

Copy the BW..


Thanks again.. (I feel better now)


LS :wink:

[Bluewings]

You 're welcome .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[TankHunter]

So Fred, you going to get rid of SH3?

I use a "No-CD Crack" . And it is perfectly legal .

Cheers . :3starSK:

That gets around the SF? Hmmm...

[TankHunter]

Wow....just followed the directions to check for Starforce in the Boycott Starforce site and it is on my system!!!

The only game on the list that I have had anything to do with is Enigma: Rising Tide, and that was just the downloaded demo.

Removing now...recommend others check too, even if they think they have never installed it.

I would bet that I have the item myself (I have Super Power 2, and a few other games that likely have it). I am wondering, is it possible to get rid of SF and still play the various games that use it?

[Skybird03]

Wow....just followed the directions to check for Starforce in the Boycott Starforce site and it is on my system!!!

The only game on the list that I have had anything to do with is Enigma: Rising Tide, and that was just the downloaded demo.

Removing now...recommend others check too, even if they think they have never installed it.

I would bet that I have the item myself (I have Super Power 2, and a few other games that likely have it). I am wondering, is it possible to get rid of SF and still play the various games that use it?

No. Not by simply uninstalling SF. In that case your game quits working. I do not know how it is with noCD cracks. Months ago the deinstallation tool did not work reliably for quite some people (amongste them was me), btw.

[mapman]

LS - go here for detailed instructions and the removal software (whole thing took me under 5 minutes and worked fine)

http://www.glop.org/starforce/

Wow....just followed the directions to check for Starforce in the Boycott Starforce site and it is on my system!!!

The only game on the list that I have had anything to do with is Enigma: Rising Tide, and that was just the downloaded demo.

:arrow: Removing now...recommend others check too, even if they think they have never installed it.
...

I just chked, and found just one: ODBC32.dll 213KB.

And it shows it was installed on 8/8/99 at 3:17am :shock:

WTF was I doing back then at that time in the morning..? :shock:


What is the procedure to find where it is and get rid of it?

It was located in.. folder C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM


Thanks BW's for the heads-up


LS

[Lone*star49]

LS , do NOT touch ODBC32.dll as it is a valid :arrow: WinXP file .

If you had the exploit virus , you would not be there talking to us on the Net . Trust me :wink:

Cheers . :3starSK:
...

One minor difference BW, but I'll hold off on doing anything, but my OS is :arrow: W98se, not WinXP.. if that is what you're saying..


And MM, will chk your post link out.. and advise you (all).. before I do anything.

My thanks to you all again


LS

[Bluewings]

TH , some "No-CD/DVD Patches" works , other don 't . It depends what game we are talking about .

I have a Friend at UBIsoft ~which is a French Developper~ and he keeps me up to date regarding the latest StarForce versions .
It seems that :
#1 : They ~SF~ are making good progress regarding system stability .
#2 : They are doing whatever it takes to protect their money/interests/business going .

Some People and some Organisations are actually thinking to start Legal Procedures ~similar than against Sony for their CD copy protection (see : Issue 989, Rolling Stone, Dec 15 2005, Page 29)~ against StarForce .

The fact is SF is a Russian based Company and basically , they don 't give a shit about our Western Laws and they can give the finger to anyone they do not like , but obviously , it is bad for their business .

I will not go further on the matter as there are some legal issues I do NOT want to personaly deal with .

I will only say that I am very glad that eSimGames did choose Codemeter instead of those Russians hackers .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Bluewings]

You can find all StarForce protected games here (and still counting) :
http://www.glop.org/starforce/#games

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Ssnake]

I'm pretty sure that whoever considers litigation will not pick StarForce themselves, but the game publishers that use it, and have a stake in the US market. Besides, they aren't as safe as they may think, in Russia. Since Russia is an WTO member, there are also agreements about legal cooperation in many areas, and if Russia failed to support the jurisdiction of other WTO members, it would hurt their reputation as trustworthy nations. It may be the lesser evil for the Kremlin to sacrifice a small company.

But that's all besides the point. I think that Copy Prevention mechanisms only fuel the fire that they're trying to quell, and that they are, in essence, a dead end technology. These mechanisms work against the manifest interests of the people who are subjected to them, which is never a good idea. A big company may have the market power for a limited time to work against their customers' interests, but sooner or later the consumers will prevail. Companies that cannot adapt their business model simply will fail. The big music labels have painted themselves in a similar corner, and Hollywood may find itself in a very similar situation if they don't learn from the music industry. MI will learn the hard way that their heydays of monopolizing the media distribution are over. The more consumers accept the internet not only as a marketing platform, but also as a distribution channel, the less power the music labels will have to promote their clone bands.


Whatever - you may be interested to hearing that the dongle tests so far have been almost completely flawless. One of our testers (Volcano) had trouble booting his computer with the stick inserted as his BIOS considered the CodeMeter stick as a mass storage device, and the boot sequence preferred USB devices. Changing the boot sequence remedied the issue. According to Wibu's tech support, this happens only in very rare cases (out of 30,000 sticks sold, Volcano was the third guy ever to report this issue). This means that we consider the CodeMeter protection as "safe for public release". Development wise a single issue remains - whether or not to compress the height maps. With 1.5 GByte of map data, simply zipping them doesn't cut it. We're going to test an alternative compression method, and once that this has been verified, we're going to freeze the code, write the last chapter of the manual, and send everything off for production.

[Skybird03]

Sounds good! Now I need a tissue to clean the greasy liquids dripping left and right from my mouth...

[RIPper]

change the height map to hex squares ;)

one evil thing that is coming is a lot of DRM (digital rights management). it will be built-in the next windows AFAIK. while the basic idea is not bad (trying to stop you from copying copyrighted material etc etc), i have a bad feeling that it will be heavily overused. movie industry will surely strongly support it, because it starts to get into a corner with their stone age thinking. just imagine the horror when most tiny little videos you download from the web will allow you to play them just 5 times, and to unlock more you have to pay someone, cooperate with the devil, sacrifice your brothers right arm etc etc

[Bluewings]

Development wise a single issue remains - whether or not to compress the height maps. With 1.5 GByte of map data, simply zipping them doesn't cut it. We're going to test an alternative compression method, and once that this has been verified, we're going to freeze the code, write the last chapter of the manual, and send everything off for production.

Release pro PE on a DVD . Sorted .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[mapman]

Hard drives are pretty cheap these days, and most computers that are modern enough to handle Pro-PE come with a minimum of 80 Gigs and usually a lot more than that. 1.5 Gigs works just fine for me.

[congo]

Im in agreement with both BW and MM. I got 140 Gigs of space and probably 50% usable. Ssnake bring it on baby!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elf`]

change the height map to hex squares ;)


Over my dead body......

[TankHunter]

change the height map to hex squares ;)


Over my dead body......

Don’t worry Elf, that can be arranged. :twisted: :wink:

[DarkAngel]

Jacket image of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary


temptation

• noun 1 the action of tempting or the state of being tempted. 2 a tempting thing.

[cobrabase]

Hmmmm... I'm interested to see how long it takes to go from the frozen code to arrival at our doors. Seriously... I'm curious to see how long it takes a third party to produce copies of software for the limited public. Only time will tell right?

This is all great news SSnake. Thanks for the update!

[mapman]

Re: StarForce and Silent Hunter III from Direct2Drive:

I received a timely response from their customer support center that said:

Hi there,


This game does come with StarForce protection system built into the game. Is
there a specific reason why you are not installing this?


Regards,


Harry "WolfBlade" Vansickle
Customer Care Specialist
IGN Entertainment
http://www.direct2drive.com


I responded with plenty of info from this thread. Guess I will not be getting SHIII :-(

[Skybird03]

I need to do some justice to the publisher of the SF-infested dictionary I mentioned, I exchanged emails with them . they have learned, and offer a tool to replace an existing original-SF-Dictionary installation from CD with a new downloadable installation that bypasses SF which then can be deleted without harm - one can even first-install the user interface directly from this download and add the dictionary's library from CD afterwards. That way a fresh installation procedure is allowed that avoids SF ever getting onto your HD.

Rumour is that sale numbers are low, and additionally, I assume, many complaints were filed. So, with Langenscheidt-Collins a boycott and many emails obviously have enforced an appropriate and customer-friendly reaction.

Lesson of it: at least with some companies it helps to vote with your wallet. The bigger the company, the more people need to boycotta critical product, of course.

[Ssnake]

The only vote that companies count, ever, is the vote cast with a wallet.

[Storm91]

The only vote that companies count, ever, is the vote cast with a wallet.

Mines ready just make a now shipping thread :twisted:

[mapman]

And the debate continues:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48382

[Volcano]

Holy Mon Calamari's I have SF on my computer. It must be from SH3. You going to stop playing SH3 BW?

[Bluewings]

I stopped playing SHIII a month ago when I 've noticed that my ATA/SATA Disks settings have been changed ~downgraded to lower speed~ by StarForce .
And I was using a no-CD patch :shock:

No SF games protected will ever be installed on my PC ever again . :mad2:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[mapman]

Yea...it really stinks...i wanted to buy SHIII, but not after reading about SF

[Volcano]

BW,

Ok this might be a dumb question but how did you notice that your ATA/ATAPI controller settings had been changed? How did you fix it?

[Bluewings]

By looking into my advanced settings in my Gigabyte Bios . I first noticed a slowdown when transfering files from one hardisk to the other .

I fixed it by uninstalling SF , then reinstalling my motherboard chipset and set it back to "Turbo" mode .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Skybird03]

And the debate continues:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48382

Plus many other debates we have over there: politics, religion, culture, anything that keeps you warm in a cold winter night... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Gunfighter]

http://technology.sympatico.msn.ca/Home/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=173321&feedname=PCMAGAZINE&show=True&number=6&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc

Dodged a land mine there!!!

[Jester_UK]

Yeah I'd heard of that gunfighter. Shocking thing to do. Especially ironic that the maker of a copy protection program would post an link to a warez site.

I must admit that personally I've had no problem with SF, and I've got both LOMAC/ Flaming Cliffs and SHIII on my system.

There's no doubt it's caused problems for a lot of people. The problem for me is that having been involved with both of those communities for quite some time I've seen not only genuine reports of SF related problems, but also mass hysteria to the extent (on ED's (LOMAC makers) forums especially) simple matters such as incorrect PC (and some times even in game) settings have been reported and the poster immediately wonders if it's because of StarForce! It's got so bad that I've found myself less and less likely to believe anti-StarForce stories until they're coroborated by someone I'd trust (not refering to your article here or anything specific in any of the other links posted in this thread).

In fact on ED's forums now a question about SF's ability to cause XYZ problem is more likely to get a sarcastic response ("eg: "Yeah. And StarForce ate my dog too!") than anything contructive from the community.

The point of all this rambling is this: The anti-StarForce lobby need to distance themselves from the hype and hysteria. Post more and more detailed and scientific test results (There's a bloke called Soul Commander who was very vocal -and good at this type of thing- on the SHIII forum over at Ubi's site, although most of the anti- SF posts have suddenly disappeared). And since StarForce appear to want to use strong arm tactics, is there a core of the anti-SF lobby who are prepared to invest the time and money it would take to haul them into court? If not then you're unlikely to get the attention of the likes of Ubisoft. Getting the attention of the PC magazine might be another good idea. See if they can be pursauded to take up the fighth.

I'd like to see the end of intrusive CP software too, but Ssnake's comment about the only vote a publisher cares about is the one made with the wallet is very true (especially with regard to a company like Ubi who've shown time and time again that they don't give a rat's ass about their customer's concerns). The trouble is if we stop buying the simulators they produce, all they'll do is shrug their shoulders, stop publishing them, and concentrate on FPS console games aimed at either 7-year-olds or the clinically brain dead). They make more money on those anyway.

The question is: IF we boycott StarForce games/ sims are we prepared to accept the death of our hobby as part of the mainstream of PC gaming if this is what it would result in? And if so are there other developers like ESim who are prepared to look at alternate methods of copy protection who would step in and fill the gap left by the departure of the likes of ubi from the simulator market?

[Bluewings]

I think Bin Laden should take care of StarForce facilities ...
When nobody is inside of course .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Jester_UK]

I think Bin Laden should take care of StarForce facilities ...

Cheers . :3starSK:


Why would Bin Laden want to do the west a favour?? :wink:

[Scorpius]

I didn't read every reply in this thread but...

About 6 months ago I wanted SH3 badly, then started reading all the poison at the UBISoft forums, sheesh. After reading everything I could about Starforce, I gave up wanted that game. I did have it on my machine after downloading the Blitzkrieg 2 demo. Luckily I was able to remove it and it didn't screw up my machine. I've seen the hatemail and threats the Starforce people have sent to those who criticize them online.
In the end I was pretty bummed about not getting SH3, but I got over it. I just upgraded my machine with a bunch of new hardware and the last thing I want is some potentially malicious application wreaking havoc on my drives.

I think if game publishers are going to use Starforce, they should at least have the stones to label such on their packaging, so the consumer knows before they purchase it.

Dongles work great IMO.

[Blake]

I recently removed Starforce which was brought to my machine by SH3, then applied the no-cd patch and the game worked fine afterwards.
Now if I wanted SH3 as bad as you seem to do Scorpious I'd do the same trick. but in the future I will certainly avoid buying Starforce games.
Such aggressive and potentially damaging copy protection systems simply should not be supported and eventually the developers might actually get the point. I also don't want to fill pockets of a company that practices Mafia-style intimidation tactics, denies problems and even recently provided links to pirated Galactic Civilizations II game on their forums.
Despite having no copy-protection at all the game has sold well and apparently pissed Starforce staff.

[Scorpius]

Thank you for the advice Blake. I think I've given up on SH3, at least for now anyway. I just spent a lot of money on SB Pro PE. :D

[Rhein88]

...I will certainly avoid buying Starforce games...and eventually the developers might actually get the point..
Blake, I dislike StarForce as much as the next end user. The thing to keep in mind however, is generally it isn't the developers that decide whether or not to employ StarForce--the publishers are the ones that make this decision. Personally, I was a little nervous when eSim was debating what form to copy protection solution to utilize, and SF was among the contenders. Suffice it to say, I was elated when they choose to go the dongle route (anything but SF).

[Wulfmann]

SF does not activate from installing SH3. It activates when you run the game.
If you install SH3, patch it to 1.4 get the NoCD and remove the 4 files that comes with the NoCD (Not over write but remove them and then add the new versions) SF will never be on your PC.
I did a major rebuild to 64bit and XP and never ran the game from the DVD so know this for a fact.
I do not run any pirated games. Like most here I know our support translates to future product and the large time spent enjoying these games is well worth the price.
I am hoping UBI will not force us to look elsewhere than buying the game legally.
I must begin to question how much loyalty we owe to a company that would use Starforce again after the mountain of evidence proving its destructive nature.

As for Bin Laden, I believe Starforce is the next stage of his planned destruction of western civilization.

Wulfmann

[stavka]

Sorry, About that but i really want to know how is bad is starforce! I BUY many game and many of them have starforce system i didn't have ANY problem with that! I think that the starforce bad publicity maybe in mayority come from the people that wants to ilegaly copy the game!
I have many games from ubisoft (like SH3 and others) and it works PERFECTLY and sometimes i want to reinstall them and i made it without problems!
I think that the starforce problem is something like the posts that exists in many forums that say something like "my dog eat my CD/manual, someone could send me the serialkey ? ..." :evil:

Best regards

Tercio

[RIPper]

for example i don't like how starforce works. i don't like when some software messes with drivers, hides itself etc....i'm really hesitant to install such stuff in my own will. even though it doesn't cause problems in most cases, i don't like the basic principle....and then there's the attitude of the starforce developers...

[Scorpius]

I think that the starforce bad publicity maybe in mayority come from the people that wants to ilegaly copy the game!


Sorry, but I don't think so. I have never pirated any games. I've paid for everything I own. The way Starforce deals with the public and the scare-tactics they employ speaks for itself. The nature of what Starforce is and how it has been used is extreme. What right do the Starforce people have to threaten those who criticize them with legal action? They don't.

Not everybody who has Starforce has had problems with their machines, yet many do. If you didn't have any problems with Starforce I'd say consider yourself lucky. Computers are like people in the aspect that no two are alike.

[Storm91]

Yea the complaints are finally being listened to.Check this upcoming Spellforce 2 comes with starforce(developed in germany).But not the US version.Devs are getting sick of hearing we wont buy your product if it comes with SF.This is a start. :P

[Ssnake]

The looming threat of a customer boycott certainly influenced our decision, although it really is a question to whom you are losing sales. No protection - lose sales to pirates. StarForce - lose sales to SF boycott. Dongle - lose sales to those that avert any form of software protection. Steam - lose sales to people without broadband internet access. The question is, which of these options retains most customers or costs least in relation to the expected customer loss.

Anyway - the most convincing argument for me was that I wanted a solution that would put more stress on pirates than on legitimate users, and that would be non-intrusive in nature. Like that other company in Mountain View (1600 Amphitheatre Parkway), we don't want to be evil. A hardware protection seemed to be the least intrusive solution. It maintains your privacy, and supports the integrity of your personal computers. Downside - you have to drag around another piece of hardware that can get lost, or fail, and that's going to be inconvenient. I'm sorry that the world isn't a place where we can all be friends and get along with each other - but in the light of it, it seems like this is a better compromise than all the others that we were considering. I'm happy to see that so far most of you the CodeMeter stick is a hassle-free experience.
:)

[Blake]

I'm happy with dongle at the moment as it does not interfere with my system like Starforce, eventually maybe after year or two it would be great to have official 'dongle-ness' patch to remove all possible future problems with it. I don't mind the dongle on a high-quality military simulator like this but hopefully there won't be more dongles in other releases or my usb's getting crowded and switching dongles would be pretty annoying. Many people I've talked to though don't mind the dongle they just object the price, not that they are broke, but in principle.

There's another viewpoint - many people I know first tried the pirated version of Dangerous Waters when there was no demo of it and none of them was particualry interested in naval warfare but got sucked into it deeper and deeper, then decided to buy it after trying out. Nobody would have bought it without trying the illegal version first.

I don't know but I just tend to believe good well-made games always sell, copy-protection or not. I have not seen evidence of piracy bringing down software houses at least recently, if there is clear evidence of this happening I sure would like to see the case. If somebody downloads pirate versions it may have so many positive or negative effects it is hard to determine and needs to be studied.

[Wulfmann]

The argument that Starforce protects a game from piracy is inaccurate. SH3 was cracked within days of release.
As Ted's Harware pointed out those that bought SH3 had the potential for PC damaging while those that stole the game had no such risk.
The last thing Devs need is to convince people that theft is in their better interest.
Few people want to rip anyone off but have little concern for those that act like SF and profit from damaging legal user's hardware.
We all benefit from good copy protection that allows devs to price their product at a prfoit and lower for competive purposes rather than higher to off set pirating losses.
We actually want Devs to protect themselves but not at our expense.
As for the Starforce employee. Stale and don't play in a real world, T.
That "only those that are thieves" have trouble shows you either work for SF or have little capacity for rationality.
People that have DVD burners have the most trouble.
I have 2 PCs. The smaller 32 bit ran SH3 without any problem with SF. The larger 32 bit had nothing but trouble. When I upgraded that system to 64bit I got the NoCD and installed SH3 and it is fine never having SF on it.
Devs, protect yourselves and in a way that does not attack us and we will remain loyal
Use SF from now on and expect to be treated the same way by us.
Don't say you were not told.
We can buy the game or you can give us good reason to disrespect you like you disresepct us with Starforce.
You decide how this plays out!
Ssnake, appreciate your explanation and hope other devs draw similar conclusions.

Wulfmann