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ShermansWar
02-16-2006, 10:52 PM
Arise, Ye Danes!
By Gary Brecher ( war_nerd@exile.ru )

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FRESNO -- By now, every unemployed Muslim on the planet is demanding that Den-mark be beheaded. On the news every damn night you see more of those Islamic demonstrations, with hordes of hairy guys raising their fists and chanting some crap.

Makes me wish for a divebomber, or better yet a cropduster -- if only I could have passed a pilot's physical.

Every time I see one of those crowds I can't help but think of the smell there. That would be the worst thing about getting caught in an angry Muslim demonstration, worse than even getting attacked and beaten. It's the smell I fear. All those unwashed armpits right over your head, bashing you and chanting about their Allah. You'd beg for death, you'd be moaning, "O believers, in the name of Allah, the Great, the Unshowered, the Never Heard of Speedstick, Whose Armpits Stink Like Anchovies in a Broken Fridge, will one of you find a rock or a sharp object to finish me off, already?"

So far the biggest action's been in Lebanon and Syria, where Danish embassies were burned down. As soon as I heard that I knew the burnings had been ordered by Assad's intel service, because NOTHING happens with "Islamic" on it in Beirut, never mind Damascus, unless the Syrian colonels in sunglasses OK it. Assad doesn't give a damn about Danish cartoons -- in fact, his Alawite clan doesn't even count as Muslim by most Imam's standards. He just wants to remind Bush that taking down Syria may be a cakewalk in stage one, just like Iraq was, but stage two, the occupation, will be way worse than Iraq is now, because Assad's spies are smarter and tougher than Saddam's goons ever were.

So in a way I'm kind of glad those Danish embassies burned, because maybe Bush will take the hint and not land us in another tar swamp. One's plenty. But let's be realistic. Bush's last contact with reality was his senior-year report card at Yale. He didn't enjoy it and hasn't been back since. He'll jump into Syria unless one of the Joint Chiefs draws a pistol and changes the C-in-C's mind.


I've seen the Danish cartoons online, and they're as tame and lame as you'd expect from 21st Denmark, a whole country working 24/7 to make sure it doesn't offend anybody, terrified it might be accused of being pro-Danish. God, we can't have that!

Scandinavians are so worried they might offend some third-worlder that they make perfect prey animals for any murderer or rapist lucky enough not to be blond and tall.

But I wonder, do you Danes ever feel pride in who you once were? I sure hope so. Because you truly were great, the most mobile and greedy (I mean that in a good way) of all the Vikings. You had the best of all worlds; you'd farm your little Danish pastures happily half the year, then when Summer came Dad would kiss the wife and kids (and cow) goodbye and sail off to slaughter any settlement their longboats could reach. And thanks to their shallow draft, the longboats could sail far upriver, so even inlanders so far from the ocean that the whole village had goiters were within range of the Danes.

"The Danes!" If somebody called out "The Danes!" in Northern Europe a thousand years ago, they didn't mean that some scraggy gloomy hippies were arriving at the backpacker hostel. Back then Danes weren't ashamed of being a warrior tribe, hacking lesser breeds from Ireland to Russia without mercy. It was a classic example of how you can combine socialism and entrepreneurship: all the men from a peaceful Danish village would polish up their axes -- most Vikings used axes, because they were cheaper than swords and useful around the farm -- and row off together.

Nobody could stop them. The sea was the only way to travel fast in those days, so the Vikings could burn, rape and rob any town long before the local lord could muster his garrison, never mind reach the town under attack. And then, like the good little social democrats they were, the Vikings would head home to cuddle the kids, pamper the livestock and spend the long nights making sure the wife produced another generation of raiders. If there's a better life, I can't imagine what it is.

Historians these days always emphasize how "the Vikings were essentially traders, not mere plunderers." Yeah, right. What that means is (a) professors hate to admit there was ever anything as glorious as the Vikings; and (b) if you met the Vikings' longboats with a huge army and looked ready to fight, the Danes were smart enough to switch to sales mode: "Hi there! We're peaceful visitors here to, uh, what's the word? 'Trade' -- yes, 'trade' with you wonderful people!" But let your guard down for a second, and they'd cut out the middleman -- literally. It was just good business. Nothing makes your accountant happier than hearing you got your stock at the ultimate wholesale price.

Like all good raiders, the Danes thrived on tricks. If feeding the enemy a flattering line of bullshit would bring an advantage, the Vikings could spread the verbal cow-pies better than a DoD "official spokesperson."

There's a famous case, the Battle of Maldon, 991 AD. For once, the locals -- in this case, the English -- had the advantage. A Viking raiding party was stuck on a little offshore island. The only way ashore was a causeway so narrow three men could hold it. The Vikings tried the John Madden approach first, bulldogging the causeway. But the Anglo-Saxons had put their best men there, and the Vikings limped back to the island, where some Dark Ages PR whiz came up with a great idea: appeal to the Anglo-Saxons' notion of a "fair fight."

They flattered the old Earl, reminded him of the noble Anglo-Saxon tradition of fair combat, and the old idiot finally agreed to let the Vikings march unopposed to shore so the two sides could stage the first, last and only Maldon Bowl. The game ended when the Vikings showed their gratitude to the old nobleman by hacking his head off and showing it to his men-at-arms. Which just shows, amateurs think about fair play, pros go with Al Davis's rule: "Just win, baby."


The Vikings showed the same practical attitude when one of their own leaders got killed. Most Dark-Ages European armies fought for a particular guy, and if he was killed they broke and ran, like the Earl of Maldon's men did. Not the Vikings. If Sven, the raid leader, got his head lopped off, the Danes shrugged and kept fighting. In fact, Sven's head probably mouthed the change in lineup as the enemy held it up: "Olaf, you take over, I think I've got a medical problem!"

That practical attitude freaked those superstitious villagers so much they broke and ran as if their own leader was dead.

Eventually coastal defenses improved enough to make Viking raids an unprofitable way to spend your summers. But the Danes still had plenty of fighting spirit left, so they applied it to wars closer to home.

Medieval Scandinavia was almost always at war, with either Denmark or Sweden trying to unite the three kingdoms -- including Norway, which was kind of the retarded little brother of the three -- into one big blonde war machine. Too bad they didn't manage it. A mighty kingdom of the tall blonds could have gone on a world-wide pillage tour, filling the world up with their tall blond genes, which could have made me a bit more appealing.

Instead it was the Mongols who raped their way from Manchuria to Bavaria, leaving little Genghises to grow up getting some very funny looks from their surviving neighbors.

I'm serious about these Mongol genes. DNA studies show that in Central Asia, 1 of every 200 men has a gene linking them to Genghis Khan. Not his army, but Genghis personally. Which means he got to know their great-great-great (etc.) grandmothers real well in those long evenings after a day's massacring. Every war nerd in the world likes to quote Genghis's famous line about how great it is to kill your enemies "and clasp their women to your chest," but now we know he wasn't just giving pep talks. He was one of those player-coach guys, never asked anything of his men he wasn't willing to do himself.

While Genghis was spreading himself around, the Danes were busy fighting other blondes, especially Sweden. Like I've said before, Sweden used to be a real military power, a beautiful force -- those amazing pikemen who walked into one of Peter the Great's fortress at Narva in the middle of a blizzard, vastly outnumbered, and astonished the Russian garrison so much they just surrendered out of sheer admiration. Yeah, those blue-and-yellow cross stickers used to fly proudly, not just signal "I'm a Swede, please don't hurt me!" on a hippie's backpack.


And the Danes used to whack those tough Swedes around pretty regularly in their non-stop family fights. Take the Sweden-Denmark war of the 1560s. Just to show you how much esprit de corps these countries used to have, the war was fought over Denmark's right to use three crowns on its flag! The Danes kicked the Swedes' "numerically superior" asses on land and sea, in a major naval engagement (1564) and land battle (1565). The war didn't "settle" anything; when countries are young and strong, wars are for their own sake, a matter of pride, staying in shape, keeping limber.

That's how it should be, and still is in the few decent places (like the Horn of Africa). But little by little, the Danes got depressed and progressive -- those two things are the same, if you ask me.

But I was surprised how late it happened. As recently as 1864 Denmark took on Prussia and Austria -- pretty much all of Germany. They lost, naturally, but there's no shame in that. The Danish army was only 40,000 men and fought pretty well in a series of holding actions that made the Prussians pay for every inch they pushed up the peninsula.

They sure made a better fight of it than the French did six years later, even though Denmark was in a hopeless position with none of the French army's money, manpower and strategic depth. The Danes were just overpowered by a much bigger opponent; the French were humiliated by a smaller one. (Sorry, French people. You know I'm not one of these fools who call you cowards, but facts are facts, and you know yourselves the Franco-Prussian War wasn't exactly your finest hour.)

Once the 20th century arrived, Denmark pretty much melted into liberal mush. I blame the Nazis, because they made militarism look bad. They ruined it for all of us except the jocks and business jerks who own the world now.

The one really interesting thing I read about recent Danish history is that one of the most important men in subatomic physics, Nils Bohr, was Danish. Hey, does that give any physics majors up there in Copenhagen any ideas? How hard can it be to cook a few nukes, especially when that Scandinavian welfare state will let you take a year or two off to surf the net looking for info? Just remember, make up a web identity before you hit those sites. Just pick the name of the most famous Imam in Denmark and use it as your avatar. Your pissant government won't take the hint, but the NSA will quickly take note. You get the info you need to make your nuke, and the Imam gets an all-expenses-paid vacation in sunny Cuba, and everyone comes out ahead.

Somebody up there must have the guts to do it. You can't all be hippie ghosts. Just think how amazingly cool it would be to put your homemade nuke into one of those disgusting Eurotrash backpacks. Doesn't your axe hand itch sometimes, Danes? Honor this Nils Bohr, and do it the way the Vikings would. Vikings with nukes. Dream of that as you fall asleep to the sound of the foreigners you've welcomed and coddled smashing your cities -- and maybe you'll wake up sane again, to a dream of nuclear-powered longboats heading south to turn the Holy Land into a glowing wasteland, like God intended. And by God, I mean Odin, not that Palestinian smooth-talker whose armpits are stinking up on the cross. When you had gods fit for Vikings, you were feared and respected; now you're just fucked.

PS-SCUD
02-16-2006, 11:12 PM
Hehe, that was great...though perhaps a bit political for GZ.

ShermansWar
02-16-2006, 11:16 PM
It was Political?

chrisotto
02-16-2006, 11:31 PM
Hmmm... Here's a moderator in doubts.

Is BO political?

:) - no seriously: If this thread stays without comments, I guess I'd leave it.

Wahrborg
02-16-2006, 11:41 PM
Hey, we're just regrouping. soon we'll rule the world again... taking some time, i agree on that.. - but any day now!


Edit: The danes couldent fight their way out of an wet paper bag.. It was just us who dressed in red and white to give the danes the blame when the came back hunting for us.. :D

W@NKER
02-17-2006, 02:07 AM
Hey, we're just regrouping. soon we'll rule the world again... taking some time, i agree on that.. - but any day now!


Edit: The danes couldent fight their way out of an wet paper bag.. It was just us who dressed in red and white to give the danes the blame when the came back hunting for us.. :D

Hehe yeah right, indeed scandinavia should unite, but then again the swedes have been neutral the last 100 years evading every damn conflict :P

Even with these innocent cartoons, the swedish goverment are prohibiting any publishing of the cartoons, and and norwegian newspaper excused for publishing these cartoons, I think it's better we're divided in three ;)

But without getting to political. I think it's our goddamn right to show these cartoons whether it were right or wrong. those imam's from denmark that went on their own little tour to the muslim countrys, didnt only show those 12 innocent cartoons, but they also took a number of far worse and provoking pictures and cartoons that weren't published or made by the danish newspaper, because they knew if they only brought those 12 originales from the newspaper, it probably wouldnt have gone this far at all.

My personal oppinion is that I hope that these imam's will get a sentence for treason and then get kicked out of our country. They came here to denmark on their on free will, we didnt force them to come here, if they can't accept how we live in our country, and integrate like other foreigners do, then they should go home to where they came from, but I guess denmark is the better place with social security and other wealthfare they wouldnt get from their own country.

I'm not a racist or anything. But I'm pretty sure if I lived in their country, and I try to force them to live like we do in the western world, I probably would get my head chopped of.

And yes I'm a proud Viking! ;)

And moderator you are welcome to edit or erase this, if this is out of line :)

dejawolf
02-17-2006, 02:53 AM
i was on a small get-together about the drawings here in norway.
there was some fags, talking about how muslims were people and showing old women and children to sweeten up the mood. and talking a load of bullshit about
the muslim law system. he seemed quite nervous.
there was a muslim who basically said we had an ok from the muslim community to
print those drawings, its just those islamist fuckheads that say we cant.
he also drew some lines about how amazingly similar the words of Allah is to the christian god.
then there was a newspaper boss who basically said "don't give in to those POS
islamists, protect your freedom of speech" and "its sad that theres people who disuse
the right to speak freely" and "what our leaders has said is basically, its ok to give in on our right of freedom of speech"

TankHunter
02-17-2006, 03:12 AM
Great post there Sherm!

Wahrborg
02-17-2006, 03:19 AM
Hehe yeah right, indeed scandinavia should unite, but then again the swedes have been neutral the last 100 years evading every damn conflict :P

Hehe. As a matter of fact, the last time we where at war, was when we helped you guys out in the war that Gary Breacher mentiones in the article above. We sent something like 1200 troops whit 40 rounds each, just to keep the Danish King happy (they did nothing but wait on one of the Danish islands for two months btw)

After that we went in two directions. You guys went for the "here comes the naughty germans - roll over and play dead!" tactics, while we went for the "-God no, dont upset them! someone might get hurt!" tactics.

Let's face it. The only scandinavians who have had balls the past 100 yrs is the Finns :)

Even with these innocent cartoons, the swedish goverment are prohibiting any publishing of the cartoons, and and norwegian newspaper excused for publishing these cartoons, I think it's better we're divided in three ;)

Na, they newer prohibited anything. In difference to the rest of the western world, we here in scandinavia have what most other just claims to have: Democrasy, transparancy and freedom. While the rest of the civilized world are bussy talking loud and singing about it, we here acctualy practise it.

The cartoons where published here in the biggest newspaper, but in an explainatory context of what was going on in Denmark and Norway. To publish it in any other way would have no purpose at all, unless if it was done the same day as you guys did it.


My personal oppinion is that I hope that these imam's will get a sentence for treason and then get kicked out of our country. They came here to denmark on their on free will, we didnt force them to come here, if they can't accept how we live in our country, and integrate like other foreigners do, then they should go home to where they came from, but I guess denmark is the better place with social security and other wealthfare they wouldnt get from their own country.

I'm not a racist or anything. But I'm pretty sure if I lived in their country, and I try to force them to live like we do in the western world, I probably would get my head chopped of.


Agreed. The entire scandinavia seems to be in some kind of collective shock since the balkan wars, where we all suddenly where up to oure necks in political correctness and obligated to feel sorry for ppl who many times where damn near the border between beeing actuall war victims, to just beeing plain social tourists. And if you even think about questioning whats going on, your a naughty naughty boy who should be locked up.

I hope that whats going on now will be a step in causeing oure goverments to wake up and do a serious haulover of oure immigrantpollicy. We need to reach the ppl who needs to get and be here, and sort out the social tourists who takes advantage of what we've spent the last 1000yrs building up :)

Lone*star49
02-17-2006, 04:44 AM
...

Comment: favorable..


LS :wink:

Bluewings
02-17-2006, 05:30 AM
Basically the question is :

"Shall we wake up or not ?"

Sometimes , Peace can turn a pride Warrior into a placid farmer ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

Trekker
02-17-2006, 10:47 AM
Basically the question is :

"Shall we wake up or not ?"

Sometimes , Peace can turn a pride Warrior into a placid farmer ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

Considering the effect when the muslims "by accident" burned down our embassy ("It wasn't meant for us, they was after the danish embassy"). I doubt that anyone in the Swedish ****less goverment will make a move. Not even to protect our right of speech or our Swedish soil. Sad that the only once who protect our freedom is Kofi Annan and the Italian minister who wore the t-shirt with the cartoons.

These days i feel like i have to say im sorry to live in such a pathetic country.

I wish the FFZ was open, has some more to write. :twisted:

NEpi
02-17-2006, 04:07 PM
Sad that the only once who protect our freedom is Kofi Annan and the Italian minister...

I think the reason is your freedom of speach is so obvious, there's no need to defend it, really, unless your government decides otherwise, and then it's an internal strife.

for example, if some of the esteemed members of this community gave a speach about my nationality as the spawns of satan, do you think everyone would agree?
do you think anyone who doesn't agree will "protect" me against it?
all we all do is say "this guy is a fuckhead" and lock the thread.
bottom line, you don't need this protection. you're free to do whatever you like. any censorship you might abide to is your own.

btw, the Iranian regime found a cunning way to retaliate the cartoons: they announced a competition for cartoon of the holocaust.
israel's reply: "this is really hurting! please stop! :lol:"

Trekker
02-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Our goverment closed down a rightwing internetsite that showed the cartoons. They asked/demanded all the newspapers not to publish the cartoons. To me thats govermental censorship, and when the goverment say that we'r not to joke about any religion, to me that limit my freedom, eventhough i personaly don't find any need to joke about islam.

And im not very naive in the first place, democracy, personal freedom, freedom of speach, and so on, is all in the hands of our elected. But when my goverment tells me not to speak about other religions, i get abit frustrated.

The next logical step would be to make it illegal to joke about religion.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 04:58 PM
By the way there is a price on the authors head, 100kg gold last i'w heard.

Wahrborg
02-17-2006, 05:10 PM
Of course they can ask anyone anything, I dont see how that limmits anyones freedom. They didnt prohibit or demand anything.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 05:17 PM
As i said they shutdown a politicalpartys homesite, they said that DN and Expressen would be sued for publishing the cartoons.

EDIT- acctually there is three internet sites the ministry of foreignaffairs and SÄPO (special police) has shutdown.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 05:21 PM
The freedom of speach is only protected from govermental limitation, not foreign goverments or other nations claims. Maybe we should start by changing that.

TopKick
02-17-2006, 06:01 PM
It is already too late for most of Europe to recover from what is sure to come as a result of simple demographics and attitudes that prevail today. I just read the following article today that highlights the dilemma facing the world and especially European countries. A snippet follows:

The shape's already becoming clear. Take those Danish cartoons. Every Internet blogger wants to take a stand on principle alongside plucky little Denmark. But there's only five million of them. Whereas there are 20 million Muslims in Europe - officially. That's the equivalent of the Danes plus the Irish plus the Belgians plus the Estonians.

You do the mathematics. If you want the reality of Europe in a nutshell, walk into a supermarket belonging to the French chain Carrefour. You'll be greeted by a notice in Arabic: "Dear Clients, We express solidarity with the Islamic and Egyptian community. Carrefour doesn't carry Danish products." It's strictly business: they have three Danish customers and a gazillion Muslim ones. Retail sales-wise, they know which way their bread's buttered and it isn't with Lurpak.

Anyway, the article provides a different perspective from a slightly different angle. It’s really thought provoking. Read it here:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18159605%5E7583,00.html

Wahrborg
02-17-2006, 06:18 PM
As i said they shutdown a politicalpartys homesite, they said that DN and Expressen would be sued for publishing the cartoons.

EDIT- acctually there is three internet sites the ministry of foreignaffairs and SÄPO (special police) has shutdown.


No, that incorrect. They didnt shut down anything. "Sverigedemokraterna" and "Sverigedemokraters ungdom" sites was closed down by them selfs after a dialog whit the department for foreginaffairs and SÄPO. Neither SÄPO or UD has the athority to shut down sites or or stop publishing of newspapers unless its wartime, or if they have been tested in court and found to be racial discriminating etc.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 07:05 PM
No, that incorrect. They didnt shut down anything. "Sverigedemokraterna" and "Sverigedemokraters ungdom" sites was closed down by them selfs after a dialog whit the department for foreginaffairs and SÄPO.

http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?d=878&a=525562

They forced the webhotel to shut it down.

Neither SÄPO or UD has the athority to shut down sites or or stop publishing of newspapers unless its wartime, or if they have been tested in court and found to be racial discriminating etc.

They have been accused and have to stand trail for it.

Wahrborg
02-17-2006, 07:10 PM
No ;)

Thats just tabloid crap "news".

Here is an informative atricle

http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=130&a=258333

Trekker
02-17-2006, 07:24 PM
It says about the same as the link i showed. That SÄPO forced the webhotel to shutdown the site, and are now accused for it. And since SÄPOs Vd and pressagent both claim that they have shut it down and are prepeared to do it again i think its rather clear. And the fact that SÄPO pays a visit to the part members and "ask" them to remove the cartoons is rather serious.

And both SÄPO and UD is KU accused, we'll find out when the trail is over.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 07:25 PM
from the same site http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=130&a=258145

Wahrborg
02-17-2006, 07:33 PM
It's a huge difference between "forced to shut down" and "beeing asked to shut down" .. This is not Soviet where "beeing asked" is the same thing as an order. Both UD and SÄPO have full rights of giving advices and oppinions in matters like this. The fact still remains - they where asked to shut it down, they took it down them self, both SÄPO and UD is in full title to worke in their intresessts, noone was forced to do anything.

Beeing reported to the KU doesent mean that it will lead to a trial. it's actually pretty rare. specially when it comes from Lars Leijonborg who was the reporter in this case. He has a tendency to report anything and anyone.

Trekker
02-17-2006, 07:36 PM
True, we'll see the outcome of this.

TankHunter
02-17-2006, 08:20 PM
As i said they shutdown a politicalpartys homesite, they said that DN and Expressen would be sued for publishing the cartoons.

EDIT- acctually there is three internet sites the ministry of foreignaffairs and SÄPO (special police) has shutdown.

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

More people should read that document. Hopefully some of this insanity that we see in democracies would be reduced. Such as censoring people and organizations when it comes to their opinions.

Lone*star49
02-17-2006, 08:25 PM
...

Comment: agree & disagree here as expressed below, "if.."


LS :arrow:

chrisotto
02-17-2006, 10:12 PM
Guys, carefull out there. You're comparing democracies with democracies, i.e. the US constitution with European constitutions.

Both are valid ways of stating positive rights, don't forget!

So before this ends in a political discussion, don't forget that each democracy has an intrinsic, but diverse exceptionalism as character!

Read de Tocqueville for details...

ShermansWar
02-17-2006, 11:04 PM
OK, so it was political.

Open the off topic area.Or are we gonna get cencored here?Not for offensive posting even, but for topic...............

Elf`
02-17-2006, 11:12 PM
As i said they shutdown a politicalpartys homesite, they said that DN and Expressen would be sued for publishing the cartoons.

EDIT- acctually there is three internet sites the ministry of foreignaffairs and SÄPO (special police) has shutdown.

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

More people should read that document. Hopefully some of this insanity that we see in democracies would be reduced. Such as censoring people and organizations when it comes to their opinions.

Freedom of Speech is NOT a liscence to Slander!!! Your inalienble rights to freedom of self expression ENDS when it hurts somebody else physically or insults ANY group to the point of inciting violence. Its like those certain forbidden words, fighting words. Call a girl a cunt, expect to a fight. Say Fuck YOU and mean it, expect a fight. Dont insult retarded people. Dont insult crippled people. etc, etc, etc... These problemas have arisen because certain radical elements in our society have allowed those rules to be forgotten....

Elf`
02-17-2006, 11:13 PM
OPEN THE FFZ.....

TankHunter
02-17-2006, 11:24 PM
Guys, carefull out there. You're comparing democracies with democracies, i.e. the US constitution with European constitutions.

Both are valid ways of stating positive rights, don't forget!

So before this ends in a political discussion, don't forget that each democracy has an intrinsic, but diverse exceptionalism as character!

Read de Tocqueville for details...

That was not the constitution, it was the declaration of independence. The declaration of independence has no legal standing in American court of law. Which is kind of sad, for we are about as screwed up as everywhere else, but all that we need to do is wait a few more years before it becomes illegal to say something that the state deems as incitement or something else.

TankHunter
02-17-2006, 11:25 PM
OPEN THE FFZ.....

Well, you all know where I stand on this...

TankHunter
02-17-2006, 11:40 PM
As i said they shutdown a politicalpartys homesite, they said that DN and Expressen would be sued for publishing the cartoons.

EDIT- acctually there is three internet sites the ministry of foreignaffairs and SÄPO (special police) has shutdown.

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

More people should read that document. Hopefully some of this insanity that we see in democracies would be reduced. Such as censoring people and organizations when it comes to their opinions.

Freedom of Speech is NOT a liscence to Slander!!! Your inalienble rights to freedom of self expression ENDS when it hurts somebody else physically or insults ANY group to the point of inciting violence. Its like those certain forbidden words, fighting words. Call a girl a cunt, expect to a fight. Say Fuck YOU and mean it, expect a fight. Dont insult retarded people. Dont insult crippled people. etc, etc, etc... These problemas have arisen because certain radical elements in our society have allowed those rules to be forgotten....

And a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad is slanderous (I assume this is the topic at hand, based on our conversations on TS)? It is for sure sacrilegious, but then again, there have been many times in which sacrilegious items have been made and shown by the media. Does this give all believers the lawful right to kill unbelievers over such a “slander?” Does this also give the state the right to ban such "freedom of expression?" With both, it is in my opinion, no. The reason for freedom of speech is to provide people the option to state what they believe, what they feel, and not worry about great bodily harm, death, or incarceration coming down on them. Granted, there are points in which freedom of speech is curtailed, such as with the scenario of yelling fire in a packed theater. With this there is no positive side of it. With other subjects, such as art, there is a redeeming social value of it. Also insulting a group to the point of inciting violence can be different to each group. A painting of the Virgin Mary, covered in dung does not incite violence, yet a photo of Muhammad does. Should the law be tailored to various groups? I don’t think that it should, for then justice isn’t blind.

Lone*star49
02-18-2006, 12:50 AM
...

Please, Open the "Off Topic Area" (for "adults" that will abide by rules)




LS :arrow:

Sean
02-18-2006, 01:01 AM
No. The FFZ is closed, take the politics off site for now.

Bluewings
02-18-2006, 03:40 AM
I thought some were talking about freedom of speech :roll: :mrgreen:
(just kidding)

Cheers . :3starSK:

koga
02-18-2006, 08:16 AM
...

Please, Open the "Off Topic Area" (for "adults" that will abide by rules)




LS :arrow:

and...little kids like me!? :D

chrisotto
02-18-2006, 10:19 AM
but for topic

No political discussions in the GZ.

Elf`
02-18-2006, 07:32 PM
so I cant say for instance.... GW is a douchebag? is that political?

TankHunter
02-18-2006, 10:37 PM
Ya, exactly what is meant by "political?"

chrisotto
02-18-2006, 11:59 PM
Guys, forget it. You know what it means and you know what the consequences are.

I let the discussion go a bit, since there were little references to the medial reality. The first post (that comment) was agressive, but had a strong sarcastic nature - I let it go as humourous.

Right now, you're stepping on each others feet, hoping that someone makes a sound and starts ranting off. If you guys stick to non-normative comments on the constitutional frame-work, I couldn't care less; but since some of you already wanted to declare either constitutional system as winner, you're on the path to close the thread.

Homer
02-19-2006, 01:46 AM
I dont think I can say it better than this:
http://www.zipperfish.net/free/yaafm12.php

Disclaimer: For those of you who have no sense of humor and would be insulted if you view material about religion that is not politically correct , do not click on this link.

Lone*star49
02-19-2006, 02:42 AM
...

Homerun!!! Homer


LS :arrow:

Bluewings
02-19-2006, 03:11 AM
Excellent Homer !!! :thumbup: :lol: :cvcsalute:

Cheers . :3starSK:

TankHunter
02-19-2006, 03:58 AM
Guys, forget it. You know what it means and you know what the consequences are.

I let the discussion go a bit, since there were little references to the medial reality. The first post (that comment) was agressive, but had a strong sarcastic nature - I let it go as humourous.

Right now, you're stepping on each others feet, hoping that someone makes a sound and starts ranting off. If you guys stick to non-normative comments on the constitutional frame-work, I couldn't care less; but since some of you already wanted to declare either constitutional system as winner, you're on the path to close the thread.

Let's assume that I don’t know what it means. For there has been at least one time in the past in which your definition of something has conflicted with my own. So it might be preferable to have a concrete definition out there on the forums so no problems can arise. For we all know I would rather not break the rules.

Trekker
02-19-2006, 11:15 AM
I dont think I can say it better than this:
http://www.zipperfish.net/free/yaafm12.php

Disclaimer: For those of you who have no sense of humor and would be insulted if you view material about religion that is not politically correct , do not click on this link.

LMAO! :lol:

chrisotto
02-19-2006, 05:55 PM
I dont think I can say it better than this:
http://www.zipperfish.net/free/yaafm12.php

Hehe, loved it too!

chrisotto
02-19-2006, 06:06 PM
Let's assume that I don’t know what it means.

I know you do, and priding yourself as a student of Political Science does not make this hypothetical mind experience easier. Take the Veil of Ignorance (Rawls): You actually have to think about your preferences, as if you weren't born yet. So no, I won't assume you know what it means.

For there has been at least one time in the past in which your definition of something has conflicted with my own.

Nothing new, nothing special. Hopefully we all think differently and can come to different conclusions, especially in politics. How else would the communicative model of democracy, as presented by Habermas, work?

Listen, I provided with a chance for people to avoid making a statement which would bring the thread down, no threat of closing it nor any threat of ban etc. Not even did I criticise the post itself, whilst inflammatory, I regard it highly sarcastic - therefore humourous. It's context. If beneath the post some comment as "All Ayrabs should burn in 'ell, so says Dingus" would be written, well, then I'd have taken the step. There is no censorship here. State what you want, but then get the thread closed - it's just not polite towards those that post in accordance with rules, who keep a thread up.

Elf`
02-20-2006, 03:11 AM
let my people go..... :)

Lone*star49
02-20-2006, 03:31 AM
...

:shock:


LS :wink: