Man sized targets at 800 meters? How to?

[jens198]

While reading the FM on Light Cavalry Gunnery (FM 17-12-8) I stumbled about some shooting tables for the tripod mounted M2 Cal.50 machine gun.
In one of the basic tables (IV and V) you have to shoot some of those "One double-E silhouette" at a range up to 800 meters. I assume, that these silhoutte targets are about the size of two men I wonder how they can be hit at that range. I remember while shooting targets at 300 meters (on basic training in the german army) it was very hard to even see the targets at the range. So I wonder how to hit a man-sized target at more the twice at 800 meters (even if the gun is tripod mounted). I have to admit I'm really puzzled. :?

Jens

[mapman]

The US Army has really good eyesight...;-)

[Bluewings]

With my FRF1/2 Sniper Rifle , I could hit a human target at 500m without the power-scope , but with a Cal.50 a 800m , you must need shit loads of ammo to adjust and this is if you actually see the target ... :roll:

Cheers . :3starSK:

[TopKick]

In reality, you can snipe with the M2 Cal.50 MG. I've done it. The .50 comes with a sight adjustable for range and windage. On a tank with a optical sight for the .50, have the gunner give you the correct range to the target and then apply the correct range line in the sight and have a go at the target firing single shot. The gunner can spot for you. With a little practice at this you can become proficient enough to pop targets way out there fairly easy.

[Bluewings]

Ahhh .. That is a neat trick :)
But is the Cal.50 accuracy good enough ?

Cheers . :3starSK:

[TopKick]

Most of them are, especially if you have a good zero established for it. Tracer rounds are not as accurate as normal ammo though.

[Bluewings]

Rgr that .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Grenny]

Problems at 300? Target type 10? or 8? 8 would be tricky("crawling man")
10 is "standing man"...thats easy at even 400.
Well, the target is a tiny spot then(smaller the your sigth ;-) )


Now with G36...its easy to spot the target at more the 500 to 600, but them puny 5.56 round can't reach out that good(when windy)

Hmm, G36 in 7.62x51 version

:twisted: that would be cool

...about the maschine gun:
don't know about the .50 cal, but with the MG3 on bipod...impossible on 800,
Ground-mount on the other hand has a x4 scope...piece of cake then ;-)

[NEpi]

or you can use them the way we use them: mounted on the main gun. accuracy is very good as long as you tighten the nuts on the mount, and you got the best optics.
got some dangerous close infantry? shoot them with something else.

[Shinigami]

I remember there was an engagement on tank table VIII for the TC. It was a moving PC to be engaged with .50 cal at something like 1300 or 1800 meters (that was back in '91 or '92, perhaps someone with a better memory can clarify). We had the gunner give the TC range and then traverse the turret to track the target and adjust lead. In the videotaped review from the thermal sights that the range masters used, we saw every round dead-center mass on the PC. I was pretty amazed. We ended up with a distinguished rating :). So, the .50 cal can be extremely accurate at long range with a steady mount.

[DrDevice]

I belive this is part of the conflict between M1A1 mounts and the conversion to the flex-mount on the A2. It's tough to make the .50 both a useful knife fight tool and a long-range hitter, even though it can be effective in both cases.

[3Star]

I nailed targets with a bipod M240 at 800m, second burst. They were standard pop-up targets, but a group of about four of them, so not too hard to get a hit or two. I also had my assistant gunner calling the fall of shot for me after the first burst.

NTM

[GaryOwen]

The tripod mounts for both the M2 HB and the M60 (the two machineguns that I have experience firing and have qualified with) have as a component, a traverse and elevation mechanism (T&E). It connects the rear of the machinegun to the tripod's traverse bar which is located between the rear two legs. Given a properly stabilized tripod, setting generally level and with the feet sandbagged so that the tripod doesn't move anywhere, and a good assistant gunner/spotter, a machinegun becomes a precision instrument that can lay accurate fire well beyond tracer burnout.

With the T&E the gunner can adjust elevation and deflection one mil at a time without losing his sight picture. If the assistant gunner can see rounds splash (with naked eyes, binos, or scope), and knows the general range to the target, he can give adjustments in mils and bring the gunner immediately on target after one spotting burst.

Furthermore, in the defense, an MG position can be set up and the T&E settings to different TRPs can be determined before contact. These setting can be recorded on a 'range card'. With the use of noise producing devices, even in the absence of illumination or night vision devices; shifting from the TRPs, a gunner can engage targets at range during limited visibility.

[ShotMagnet]

Gary,

Is the T&E gear used for setting up grazing fire, or does that involve another process?


Shot

[GaryOwen]

The T&E has a clamp that can be set to lock its position on the traverse bar. If the clamp isn't locked down, the gunner can carefully move the gun back and forth. If you're not careful, the T&E might bounce off the traverse bar and get all f-d up. The gunner can graze at a set elevation that way or by using the traverse wheel.

[Grenny]

The tripod mounts for both the M2 HB and the M60 (the two machineguns that I have experience firing and have qualified with) have as a component, a traverse and elevation mechanism (T&E). It connects the rear of the machinegun to the tripod's traverse bar which is located between the rear two legs. Given a properly stabilized tripod, setting generally level and with the feet sandbagged so that the tripod doesn't move anywhere, and a good assistant gunner/spotter, a machinegun becomes a precision instrument that can lay accurate fire well beyond tracer burnout.

With the T&E the gunner can adjust elevation and deflection one mil at a time without losing his sight picture. If the assistant gunner can see rounds splash (with naked eyes, binos, or scope), and knows the general range to the target, he can give adjustments in mils and bring the gunner immediately on target after one spotting burst.

Furthermore, in the defense, an MG position can be set up and the T&E settings to different TRPs can be determined before contact. These setting can be recorded on a 'range card'. With the use of noise producing devices, even in the absence of illumination or night vision devices; shifting from the TRPs, a gunner can engage targets at range during limited visibility.

Sound pretty much like the abilities the "ground target mount"tripod for MG3 has.
(german word would be : Erdziellafette)
What I liked best is that you aim with a periscope then(with a 4x scope).
With that you can hit targets at far over 1000m and the only thing that stick out of your position is the gun...the gunner is allway under cover.
You also have n elavation-handle and traverse left-right on a rail. On the rail there are 2 clapms to fix the maschine gun to have some kind of TRF...
My best hit there was a target type 8 on 1200m.
You see: maschine guns have a far reach ;-) (good anti sniper weapon)

[taskforce-panther]

800 meters for a barret 50? not a problem

Caliber: .50 BMG (12.7 x 99mm)
Operation: Short Recoil, Semi-Automatic
Overall Length: 1448 mm
Barrel Length: 737 mm
Feed Device: 10 Round Detachable Box Magazine
Sights: 10X Telescopic
Weight: 12.9 kg empty
Muzzle Velocity: 854 m/s (M33 Ball)
Max Effective Range: 1800 meters
Expected accuracy: 1.5 - 2.0 MOA or better

[DrDevice]

Nobody's talking about a sniper weapon. The discussion is about M2 gunnery either tripod- or vehicle-mounted. Of couse a .50 cal sniper weapon would have an 800+m range. That's way inside the ball park of even 7.62mm sniper weapons. It's a bit different when considering vehicle mounts.

[taskforce-panther]

:roll:

[taskforce-panther]

well i thought bout this one a lil bit, it would aslo depend on the type of round too, rather sierra, wads, or whatever also the type of ball as well. say on an m996 humvee with a M2 BMG up top the bore sights are usually set to around 1000 meters from a guestimation, but with kentucky windage its highly possible to hit targets much father beyong that mabe like 1500 meters given the terrain, elevation and LOS. but yes its very likely you can hit a man running at 800+ meters with the ma duece

[gtxc01]

I'll jump in on the accuracy of the M2. Prior to the Canadians setting a new record of 2500 meters in Afghanistan, the previous long distance sniping record belonged to GySgt Carlos Hathcock, who used a handpicked M2 with AP ammo, and a jury rigged scope to hit a man at 2500 yards. As for the T&E and getting effects on target using pre-registered target referance points, this article is great at opening your mind to the capabilities of a good HMG.

The Rise, Fall And Rebirth Of The 'Emma Gees' (Part 1)

by Major K.A. Nette, PPCLI


Just remember, PIC'M DEEP!
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/emmagees/emmagees1.htm

[Ace94mp]

The tripod mounts for both the M2 HB and the M60 (the two machineguns that I have experience firing and have qualified with) have as a component, a traverse and elevation mechanism (T&E). It connects the rear of the machinegun to the tripod's traverse bar which is located between the rear two legs. Given a properly stabilized tripod, setting generally level and with the feet sandbagged so that the tripod doesn't move anywhere, and a good assistant gunner/spotter, a machinegun becomes a precision instrument that can lay accurate fire well beyond tracer burnout.

With the T&E the gunner can adjust elevation and deflection one mil at a time without losing his sight picture. If the assistant gunner can see rounds splash (with naked eyes, binos, or scope), and knows the general range to the target, he can give adjustments in mils and bring the gunner immediately on target after one spotting burst.

Furthermore, in the defense, an MG position can be set up and the T&E settings to different TRPs can be determined before contact. These setting can be recorded on a 'range card'. With the use of noise producing devices, even in the absence of illumination or night vision devices; shifting from the TRPs, a gunner can engage targets at range during limited visibility.

+1, all you need is a T+E and an assistant gunner to spot and you can hit anything within sight with a ma deuce.

[MAJ_Fubar]

I have to concur on this one. Man-sized target at 800m, I was never able to it but I had a 1SG who was deadly off a tripod. Surprisingly (or perhaps not...) he had no end of trouble with the Ma Deuce set up on the M1 when he was a Platoon Sergeant. Different strokes I guess. By the way Ace what squadron where you in?

[Ace94mp]

I have to concur on this one. Man-sized target at 800m, I was never able to it but I had a 1SG who was deadly off a tripod. Surprisingly (or perhaps not...) he had no end of trouble with the Ma Deuce set up on the M1 when he was a Platoon Sergeant. Different strokes I guess. By the way Ace what squadron where you in?
Tiger Squadron

[MAJ_Fubar]

Outstanding! I spent '90 to '93 in Bravo Troop except for 6 months with Golf during that first NTC after the Gulf War. Lottsa fun that...

[Ace94mp]

I spent my time for the most part with Crazy Troop, did some time in Apache and Bandit. You still in?

[MAJ_Fubar]

Check your PM, I don't want to spam up the thread with personal crap.

[Wolfman]

Here is an E-type silhouette as viewed through a 10x scope, at 600yds (590ish m). At this range I do not have problems getting body shots with a match AR15 and iron sights (prone sling supported position), or headshots with my scoped bolt gun (prone off a ruck and sandsock).

Forgive me for the poor image quality, its due to the very cheap camera we had that day, the scope looks crystal clear in person sans any warping.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/alexnenadic/842db01b.jpg

Here's a brief clip taken on Saturday, I'm the guy with no hair:

http://my.fit.edu/~anenadic/Rem700shot.wmv

[Panzer8]

nice bolt gun wolf man....is that a Rem 700 police mod? i need to get me one of thoughs im going to the range this week with my bushmaster A3 and my mini14

[Wolfman]

Its a Rem 700 5R "Milspec", in a Police model stock. The barrel is different from a Police Rem 700, this one is stainless steel, 24" long and has 5 lands and 5 grooves. The twist is 1:11.25.

Internally its identical to the Army's M24 barrel, they just turned it down to the thinner Police model contour (for reasons that are beyond my understanding...).

[Panzer8]

yea thats a nice rifle ya got there i need to save up for one if ya dont mind me askin how much did you pay without rings and scope?thanks alot.


~Panzer8

[Panzer8]

Damn thats nice wolfman....i want one really bad...if ya dont mind me asking how much did you pay and what dealer to you get it from.....also just the amount for the rilfe itself...(without rings,scope,ect) thanks alot wolfman.


~Panzer8

[Wolfman]

Got it online a while ago through www.snipershide.com. Between myself and my 2 friends, we've gotten ours in the $900-1000 range, depending on the accessories.

[Wolfman]

Found one for you, might wanna snag it:

http://www.snipershide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=010036#000002

[Ace94mp]

To go slightly back on topic, I just went to the range this weekend and had to spot for my gunner on a M249/M240 range. The pop up targets were at ranges of 400, 500, 600 and 800 meters. It took some adjustment but my gunner (with an M249) was able to hit the 800 meter target with me guiding him into it. My previous experience with the M249 when I was a private we shot at pop ups at 100, 200, 300 and 400 meters. I think the range we were on was MORE for the 240/M60 than for the 249 but we still did it.

[BRGillespie]

Easily accomplished with an AG or spotter calling the flash for you. I remember engaging targets out that far with my M249 without assistance, and pre-deployment we had some fun at a sniper range. If I can hit a single silhouette at 700m with a standard M16A4 with iron sights (with a spotter telling me where my shots are headed... the 5.56 kinda does whatever it wants past 500m ;P), then a 240B or a .50 can easily do it with group-sized targets.

[Jippo]

We did man silhouttes routinely from 600m with NSV-T (12,7x108mm) on the lockable T-72 mount. First round being accurate with the 1x collimator sight, and other's generally going over due to big tolerances in the mounting ring. :)


-jippo

[Grenny]

Easily accomplished with an AG or spotter calling the flash for you. I remember engaging targets out that far with my M249 without assistance, and pre-deployment we had some fun at a sniper range. If I can hit a single silhouette at 700m with a standard M16A4 with iron sights (with a spotter telling me where my shots are headed... the 5.56 kinda does whatever it wants past 500m ;P), then a 240B or a .50 can easily do it with group-sized targets.

Yapp, thats why I want my G3 back :-/