Reloading ammo in M1

[Captmatt]

Ok. I always assumed that all ammo in the M1 was within reach of the loader in the back of the turret. Now I guess there is ready ammo and then extra ammo stored but not quite with in reach of the loader.

I bring this up because in the 73 Easting demo I keep running out of ammo. I try to reload when there is a lull in the fighting but there is never enough time.
I try to conserve ammo by not shooting at trucks but the tank will not continue moving until I blow them up.

Is this by design?
What am I doing wrong?

[3Star]

Missing? That tends to make you run out more quickly.

You're not doing anything wrong. Because of the nature of the ammo doors between the crew compartment and the loader's and TC's racks, moving rounds from the one rack to the other is a rather time-consuming and annoying affair. (TC removes curtain. TC's ammo door is unlocked, manually opened with crow-bar type arrangement. TC pulls out round. Ammo door is manually closed. Loader's door is opened (Hydraulically). TC passes round to loader over/behind breech. Loader places round in ready rack. Loader's ammo door is closed. Repeat for each round. If you're clever, you can put a few rounds standing on the turret floor so you can do a few rounds per door opening/closing sequence, but you run the risk of accidently knocking it over and damaging it in the confined space)

It's one of the advantages of the leopard's hull stowage: Moving rounds around inside the tank from where they're stored to the loader's rack is much easier in the Leopard than the M1. (Open ready rack door, open hull stowage door (If there is one), then the loader just picks up round, spins around, inserts round in rack, spins back, continue until all rounds are done) Thus the Leopards reload faster in SBP/PE. Although it's not modelled in SB, it's actually easier to get the six rounds from the M1's hull stowage compartment into the ready rack than it is to get the 'semi-ready' rounds in.

As for the tank not moving until all enemy are destroyed, it sounds like you're on 'engage' orders. Change to assault orders or just manually override the 'plotted course' by using the steering commands.

NTM

[Volcano]

Yes, half of the rounds available are located in the semi ready rack behind the TC's back. This rack must be manually opened then each round must be transferred one at a time into the ready rack. It takes a bit of time.

What you should do is just try to conserve ammo as much as possible. Try to tell your AI units to open fire only at around 3000 - 2500 meters or so instead of just fire at will. Of course it all depends on the situation too.

The best thing to do to replinish rounds is to split a platoon into a section and have one section cover while the other section reloads. But regardless, the ready / semi ready ammo one of the biggest side effects of having a tank with a high survivability to ammunition explosions.

[PaleRider]

I haven't played the scenario, but here is something else to maybe consider. When engaging trucks use the .50 cal if they are within range (1800 meters max). That will save your valueable main gun rounds for tanks and apc's.

[Captmatt]

Well, when I try to reload, even in the heat of battle (no pun intended), and Im completely out of HEAT, and AP, nobody gets in a hurry to reload. The TC just keeps telling me to fire.
The 73 Easting Scenario is very scripted. There is no control over the movement of the tank at all.

[3Star]

I don't think Colonel Smith ever said 'a good plan', just 'a plan'

I'll take a look for the 73 Easting scenario.

NTM

[3Star]

Umm, where is it?

NTM

[sages]

Demos

[Captmatt]

I've discovered the wonders of triggers now.

[3Star]

Well, I had a crack at it, and it is rather tough on reloading... Doesn't seem to want to reload if you're moving, and you don't have any control over if you're moving or not in that scenario.

NTM

[Retro]

I am quite excited about the possibilities this issue presents, but thb right now I am more annoyed at the limited ammunition quantities available.. maybe because most of the scenarios I play (or play around with) were designed with the SB1 mindset of having 40+ rounds instantly available..

The T72 carousel setup looks a bit more attractive now though.. I guess charging the western tanks with a few companies has gotten much move viable now..

[TopKick]

When engaging trucks use the .50 cal if they are within range (1800 meters max)

If you have time to piddle with the .50 on the M1.

[Captmatt]

When engaging trucks use the .50 cal if they are within range (1800 meters max)

If you have time to piddle with the .50 on the M1.

Thats another thing with the 73 Easting scenario. Visibility is very low. I would say 500-800 meters with my untrained eye. Even though there are a ton of soft targets in the scenario the TC will not always see what the gunner can see, while shooting with the .50.

[3Star]

Technically, though it's not doable in SB, it's possible to aim the .50 with the TIS. What you do is align the TIS and .50 cal on a target in day mode. Then you don't touch the cupola traverse, and use the TC's override to traverse the whole turret. Fire the .50 cal, and adjust elevation depending on fall of shot.

Actually, I think I'll go enter that into The List.

NTM

[Volcano]

Retro,

You are right. Most scenarios have to be taken back to the drawing board under the consideration that now we have real world limitations on the ammo supply instead of the vast quantity of ammo in SB1. I am guessing that the Iraqi units in that scenario need to be reduced, as I doubt it was recorded exactly how many were present.

[Ssnake]

The 73 Easting Scenario is very scripted. There is no control over the movement of the tank at all.

Which is why we put it in the "Demo" folder. Too good to throw away, but not good enough to pass as a tactical challenge - aside maybe of the ammo shortages.

[1stADCavScout]

Most scenarios have to be taken back to the drawing board under the consideration that now we have real world limitations on the ammo supply instead of the vast quantity of ammo in SB1. I am guessing that the Iraqi units in that scenario need to be reduced, as I doubt it was recorded exactly how many were present.

I was stationed at the same post as 2/2 Cav and had a few buddies in Fox troop that I went to basic/AIT with. I talked to some of these guys over some(several) beers after all of us got back to Bamberg. At this time, the 73 easting battle was not well known outside the higher chain of command.

I was talking about all the action I had seen against the Medina @ Medina Ridge, on the outskirts of Al Bussayah vs the 26th ID, and hitting a brigade of the Tawakalna in a battle that Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon 2 later called "fright night."(IIRC the only engagement where M1 tanks were lost to enemy fire.)

Then my buddies told me obout 73 easting. They told me half of their troops' bradleys ran out of ammo completely. They were using M2A2s because when they deployed they still had the original M3's. The brass wanted them to have the added armor, and the only Brads not spoken for off the factory floor were M2 variants. That means they had a reduced ammo load, but still quite a bit of rounds to work with. They told me the tanks of their troop had to resort to "stitching fire"(COAXing freindly tanks to keep the enemy infantry for putting grenades where they don't belong) because the Iraqi infantry was desperate to get out of there. There were WAY too many targets for 3 cavalry troops to handle effectively, but by the time the rest of the 2nd ACR moved into position, they managed to whipe out most of the Iraqis.

These guys were from Fox Troop, and it is generally acknowledged that Eagle Troop bore the brunt of the battle. If the sim in general, and this scenario in particular are going for realism and training purposes, then the only thing needing to be changed is the addition of more Iraqi troops.

[Ssnake]

...so, how did the M1s organize the ammo reloads from the semi-ready rack then, in that situation? Were they pulled back platoon-wise on order of the CO, or what?

[1stADCavScout]

...so, how did the M1s organize the ammo reloads from the semi-ready rack then, in that situation? Were they pulled back platoon-wise on order of the CO, or what?

I have no idea. All the info I got is from 19D Cavalry Scouts holding the positions of Loader/Observer on Fox Troops' Bradleys. From what they said, when they ran out of 25mm in the ready box, the BC told 'em to load, the driver went full speed reverse jinking around. They'd chuck the ammo in and start opening boxes to get more chaingun ammo ready for the next time. The gunners had left the combat override on so they could move the turret with the shield door open and ignore any open hatches. If an immediate threat was seen, the gunner would engage, then move back to the loading positions. It's a wonder nobody lost a hand doing that.

[Calle]

I remember that we had a long discussion about disabling the drivers station for the player or not. Disabling the driver means that the player can't make his own tactical descisions. And that is in general not the intent of a scenario designer.

On the other hand we tried to recreate a historical scenario with the possibilities of "Steel Beasts" as precise as possible. Therefore we had to disable the drivers station so that the tanks take the same routes and had the same formations like in real battle.
That means that the player doesn't have the chance to make his own tactical descisions because he "only" replays the real scenario. This is why I think the right place for the "73 Easting" Scenario is the Demo-Folder.

Disabling the driver brings also a completely new tactical challenge, the problem of reloading. That was a surprise for us because it was not our intention.

The only possibility of reloading in SB is when the tank is in a battle position or has stopped completlety.
As the driver is disabled the player can't give the "stop" command manually. So the player is limited by the available battle positions for realoading (CP 1 right after the fight with the BMP, CP 2 near the Village). So try to reload as soon as possible after reaching CP 1 and CP 2.

And, as mentioned above, try to destroy soft targets with the MG :wink:

[mbv]

I got through that one OK by just going for the initial BMP then saving all heat/sabot ammo for the fight beyond the village. If you do take out some trucks in the village (not necessary I found as the Bradley units deal with them quite fast and mostly before you get there) be sure to load up ammo while you are stopped after the village fight ends. Then just focus on T-72s and ignore the trucks in the main enemy concentration area.

[Captmatt]

Or, you can hit the triggers and be a gunner in any vehicle that turns blue. :thumbup:

[mbv]

Didn't realise that - could be fun in the Bradleys scouting ahead as they get to hit that village first.