Bad AI Gunners

[jlh]

I'd first like to say this game is great - easily worth the $125 I paid.

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but has anyone else noticed how bad the AI tank gunners are?

In the tutorials and some simple 'shooting at target scenerios' I have made, when I am the TC, my gunners seem, more often than not, to shoot their 1st one or two shots low and into the dirt. Often not hitting on the 1st shot and sometimes not on the second. By the third they usually have raised their aim up enough to hit. And these are stationary, blind targets in the open at 900 to 1100m. The type of shot that a human gunner would hit 100% of the time. My gunnery rating is 95 so it's not that.

Maybe this is related to the BMP missile problem?

Once again, I am amazed at what you guys have produced!

[mapman]

I believe, and this may be different in Pro PE, but in SB1, the AI gunners were only as good as you were on the Tank Range. So go, get your score up under the profile of your choice and they "should" improve.

[3Star]

That's about it. On The List is 'AI gunner learing' such as 'Stop firing HEAT into the treeline' or 'Adjust when cant results in rounds falling short/wide'

NTM

[jlh]

I went back to the firing range. My gunnery rating is 100. (It was 95 before which I thought was pretty good.)

I made a scenario with my Leo2A5 facing 4 stationary, blind T-72s at 1000m on flat unobstruced level ground. From the TC position and F8 position watched and recorded what happened, also used the AAR to verify.

My gunner fired 3 KE rounds at the 1st target missing on the 1st round, missing on the 2nd round, hitting and killing on the 3rd.

The 2nd target: KE. missed on the 1st round, hit on the second, killed on the 3rd.

The 3rd target: KE, missed on the 1st round, hit on the 2nd, killed on the 3rd.

The 4th target: KE, missed on the 1st round, HEAT missed on the 2nd round, HEAT hit and killed on the 3rd.

That is 6 hits out of twelve shots at stationary non defilade targets at 1000m. This seems to be pretty typical behavior from what I've seen. I would imagine that any decent human gunner would hit them 12 out of 12 firing all HEAT.

I can live with this. Its just that sometimes I wonder if what I am seeing is real or if I'm just imagining it.

[Speedy]

I've seen this with Brad gunners as well, firing several bursts low before finally adjusting onto target.

[Retro]

Yes I am wondering about that too.. my gunnery rating is only 85 right now but still, too many (imo) shots are missing.. most of them are too low.

This is most obvious in the tutorial demo missions, especially compared with SB1..

[Elf`]

Actually this is done on purpose. We in the beta team felt it very important for the new players to have their confidence bouyed up by purposely making the AI gunners about as accurate as a White House Press conference. So you see, you fokls new to tank gunnery should all get a healthy ego boost. Cheerio!!

J/K :)

[Ssnake]

I'm not sure that I like that idea. A 100% gunnery rating should result in good overall gunnery for one's own side. Ego boosting or not. If we don't want "too good" CCL gunners we must make it harder to master the tank range.

[Lone*star49]

I'm not sure that I like that idea. A 100% gunnery rating should result in good overall gunnery for one's own side. Ego boosting or not. If we don't want "too good" CCL gunners we must make it harder to master the tank range.
...

No free rides.. and that is what's best about this sim. Each part of step by step training has its reasons.. When one gets to the tank range, he should stay there until he masters whatever tank, or all of them if that is his or her desire, with a 90% or better, along with a minium time of 7sec's, or faster.. IMO

Then when out of boot camp, go to the SP and take it step by step there as well, along with not accepting a minor victory, but keep going back till ya have the Major Victory, as it will be "the re-training" and updated knowledge of the map and its terrian that will teach one the next step to plan and engage in the next harder sce.


If one thinks; "gonna skip this cause there is no need or interest", then expect to have a weak-spot in your game/play and pay the price for not understanding or having learned the complete class/s of what is needed to beat this sim, along with those that have and you'll meet in online MP.


That is why one should be rewarded, along with his AI, for showing and demonstrating that he/she has achieved a higher level of gunning, etc.


LS

[jlh]

I think Ssnake and LoneStar are missing the point, maybe intentionally.

I've played SB for years. My gunnery rating for SBProPE is 100.

When I'm the TC my gunners shoot like sissys. See the stats in my post above.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt, just noting what I've observed.

Do you guys want this kind of feedback or not?

[CommC]

I've got a gunnery rating in the 60s and my AI gunners seem to be performing about as well as yours. Guess there is no need to rush off and work on boosting my gunnery score.

I was going to have my 10 year old neighbor kid come over and do the range for me to boost my score.

I am more interested in tactics than gunnery skill.

[CommC]

I think all this illustrates the point that many of us have been making for years in regards to SB:

If we want this to be a company level simulation, we need to be able to have the scneario designer set both the opfor and friendly AI skill level. Or at least default it to the army standard for gunners.

The gunners in the Armored Cav units in the 'storm would never have missed an enemy tank at 1000 meters.

[Lone*star49]

:? I think Ssnake and LoneStar are missing the point, maybe intentionally.

I've played SB for years. My gunnery rating for SBProPE is 100.

When I'm the TC my gunners shoot like sissys. See the stats in my post above.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt, just noting what I've observed.

:arrow: Do you guys want this kind of feedback or not?
...

:? No, my apoligy's, and not speaking for Ssnake here, but yes, the AI has problems and has been reported, and I believe that Ssnake also agrees with you, me, in that, a good tank range gunnery score should, like in SB1 give you and your AI faster, more accurate hits.. not like what you and others have experienced, and it will be addressed to reward those faster times and accuracy.. (I hope)

:arrow: And Yes, they want feed-back: Maybe, IMO, when you or anyone has a "problem" with SB Pro, you should post it in the SB Pro PE Support forum, where the Beta Team, Al, et al, would look first to read and respond with their own questions as to "when did it do this, etc.?"

Any which way, it is, along with other things, being looked at to correct, and most likely, will be among one of the features to be fixed with the first patch that comes out in a bit, I hope.. How long?, I have no clue.


Hang in there..


LS

[Kilo60]

Is this increase in skills based on your "Gunery Range Scores" independant for each tank type or is it all encompassing?

I.E. if I get a 100% in the M1A1 at the Tank Range will it also improve the A.I gunners skills in all the Leo's?

[Lone*star49]

Is this increase in skills based on your "Gunery Range Scores" independant for each tank type :arrow: or is it all encompassing?

I.E. if I get a 100% in the M1A1 at the Tank Range will it also improve the A.I gunners skills in all the Leo's?
...

:arrow: if like in SB1, then yes, just get the best %hits and fastest time combined in your favorite tank, should relate to the rest of them in AI mode.

But again, not sure what the AI is doing with scores right now in Pro, from what I've read, it needs to be addressed.


LS

[Skybird03]

Hm, I saw this too, but not that regular that I regarded it as an "issue", thus I have not described it. Yes, my gunners were hitting in the third attempt. But I also saw them hitting in the second and first attempt. Since I concentrated on effects of weapons at different range, armor type, shooting angle, to see that by tendency the effects reflect what one would in general expect, I did not examine this detail systematically, nor did I mention it.

I never saw anyone blindly firing into off-target treelines.

>>>Are you guys saying that EVERY TIME you leave it to your gunners, they do not hit before the third attempt? If so then I can confirm that for me it HAS NOT been like this. Some third strikes, but also second and first strikes I have.

I saw no issue here, but I agree, shooting skills of the AI could be improved. If the enemy is shooting at me while I hide behind a hilltop, f.e., the rounds sometimes fall short and stirr up the dirt in front of my tank - and keep on doing so, there is no adjustment by the enemy gunner, he sometimes keeps on pounding exactly the same piece of ground. Think he aimed at the centre of my vehicle and ignored that the ground was blocking that line. This I did see often enough that it sometimes made me start wondering. But I am still uncertain, and did not add this to my remarks as well.

The link between gunnery range score and performance of all gunners in friendly team I always regarded as a gamelike nonsens (I had a 100% score in SB1, and now an above 90% score in SBP). Why should some of my virtual buddies not be able to shoot better than I do? From a simulation's standpoint, this feature does not make sense, I think.

[112TYR]

Think he aimed at the centre of my vehicle and ignored that the ground was blocking that line. This I did see often enough that it sometimes made me start wondering. But I am still uncertain, and did not add this to my remarks as well.


I've seen my own gunner aiming below fully exposed enemy vehicles several times. I could even make out the tracks of the vehicle....
The gunner fired two shots which (obviously) fell short, after that I assumed control, aimed for centre of mass, and hit. Distance was probably between 1500-1800.

[Ssnake]

Actually, I would very much like to break down the gunnery rating into the individual tank types as well as proficiency with the various fire control modes (stabilized, emergency, manual). But this may have to wait until SB2.

Like I wrote in the Support forum, I think that there are some systematic errors in addition to the random errors. We want (and need) random error applied to make sure that repeated attempts to kill the same target do not always impact that exactly the same spot (to prevent the computer painting itself into the corner of an algorithm loop), but there should be no systematic gunnery error unless we can measure and replicate the player's mistakes. But it's way, way too early to think about such a detailed solution.
I'd be happy if we could identify and correct the systematic targeting error for now, even if the rest would stay the same way it is right now.

[112TYR]

We want (and need) random error applied to make sure that repeated attempts to kill the same target do not always impact that exactly the same spot (to prevent the computer painting itself into the corner of an algorithm loop),

Is divergence modeled? Wouldn't that be enough to ensure that two rounds never hit the same spot?

[mapman]

I noticed that Pro PE defaults to the Medium difficulty level. Does this have any effect on AI gunners?

It would be nice to have some way, as a scenario designer, of designating the skill level of the AI for the purpose of have an easier, or more difficult, opponent.

[Elf`]

Bottom line to this is that the AI gunners are terrible, just atrocious. Things like the Tank quake style of play will never change as long as one can still observe from the outside, One human kill four AI tanks from the direct front at 1500m without seeing a return shot hit once. This happens quite often, with both Lt Default, and SCAR . you know Lt Defaults gunnery rate, SCAR gunnery rate is just about 4.8 sec at 100%. AI still is atrocious. Needs fixing. Verstehen sie das?

[TopKick]

Mystery solved:

This is why the AI gunner is so bad. He aims low. I set up some tanks and let the gunner have at it. I watched through the GPSE as the AI Gunner consistently aimed low. If he hit it was low. The range was correct. I would override him and hit. A2 Ammo. He fired every shot in the ready racks and had the same sight picture every time .. even on flank shots he was firing at the bottom of the tracks.

[TopKick]

One would think Beta Testers should have discovered this. Maybe they did.

[Bluewings]

Yes we did ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Bluewings]

Before someone ask "why didn 't you do anything about it so ?" , one has to know that the bug list was simply SO HUGE that Al and Sean had to "prioritize" it , the most ennoying bugs ~like "stoppers"~ had to be dealt with first , leaving numerous others "on the list" to be dealt with later on .

Nobody 's perfect , not even Al ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

[dejawolf]

the problem with the AI gunnery model, is that SB has only 1 aimpoint for the AI,
which is randomized around. multiple aimpoints that are cycled through when visible, could solve this.

[TopKick]

Before someone ask "why didn 't you do anything about it so ?" , one has to know that the bug list was simply SO HUGE that Al and Sean had to "prioritize" it , the most ennoying bugs ~like "stoppers"~ had to be dealt with first , leaving numerous others "on the list" to be dealt with later on .

Nobody 's perfect , not even Al ...

Cheers . :3starSK:

the problem with the AI gunnery model, is that SB has only 1 aimpoint for the AI,
which is randomized around. multiple aimpoints that are cycled through when visible, could solve this.

Yes, I know that Nobody 's perfect. Accurate Gunnery should have been right up there near the very top of the list. Same low shooting gunner in the A4 Leo. But the sight wobbles in a circle. If the AI Gunner hits it’s because he fired when the sight was at the top of the circle. Here the sight is at the bottom of the wobble. If you watch the Leo gunner he is really into randomized accuracy. At least the AI Gunners are consistant with their misses and low sight pictures.

[Skybird03]

the problem with the AI gunnery model, is that SB has only 1 aimpoint for the AI,
which is randomized around. multiple aimpoints that are cycled through when visible, could solve this.

That correlates with my observation that a.) it does not happen always, which made me think it is no real issue, and b.) it explains why those enemy gunners hitting the same point of earth in front of my tank (covering behind a hilltop) keep on shooting the same spot on the ground again and again.

But only "1 aimpoint" and "first two shots of my gunner fall short, third one hit" does not work together. Except if the randomization of the aimpoint is not fixed until the target is destroyed, but keeps the last reuslt of the randomization in mind only for two shots.

How does randomization work then? Does it work both ways: hostile gunners aiming at me, my gunner (automatic) aiming at them? Is it conducted every shot, every third shot, only once in a target's lifetime? will it be started again when line of sight was broken and contact reestablished?

BTW, for any newbies reading this and wondering, I must say that the sim still plays tough enough, even if hostile gunners occasionally give me some "mercy" and buy me some time. I hardly realize that this "bug" is there.

[Ssnake]

Is divergence modeled? Wouldn't that be enough to ensure that two rounds never hit the same spot?
It is modelled, but as far as I understood Al, it's not quite enough. That discussion was probably three or four years ago, so all that I remember is that there were good reasons for it, and that it was necessary.
Nevertheless, such a randomization should not exceed realistic natural deviations if possible, and there should be no systematic targeting error since this would lead to an unnaturally high miss ratio.

[TopKick]

Randomization or not, I've discovered that if you're in the TC position and you hear the gunner call out a target, you better overide him and fire yourself from the GPSE or gunners seat if you want a first round hit and possible kill. Otherwise the gunner is gonna waste all your ammo.

In tests yesterday, my Leo A4 gunner fired a full ready rack of sabot and heat at 4 T-72. The best he could do was 7 hits and 2 kills before he ran out of ammo.

[Skybird03]

Randomization or not, I've discovered that if you're in the TC position and you hear the gunner call out a target, you better overide him and fire yourself from the GPSE or gunners seat if you want a first round hit and possible kill. Otherwise the gunner is gonna waste all your ammo.

In tests yesterday, my Leo A4 gunner fired a full ready rack of sabot and heat at 4 T-72. The best he could do was 7 hits and 2 kills before he ran out of ammo.

Wowh. Then the question is why is it that extreme for some, and more medium a bug for others, like me. I saw my gunner hitting targets with first and second shots, but also with third and fourth shorts. Even with several days more of gameplay experience now I still haven't had it that extreme like you describe.

I don't think so, but could there be some system-dependant variable involved?

I installed in the wrong way, by mistake, I connected the dongle BEFORE I installed the game, and not before the game was installed I red the manual :lol: . The manual recommend differently. but this can hardly be the explanation. :?

[Skybird03]

I would like to know how many people are affected from it in the way Topkick descrobes, and how many people perceive it as an event that is mixed with more reasonable firing results. Not to set up a fight with Topkick, I believe him, but if it is that extreme for some, then it must be rated as a showstopping issue, imo, and thejn it derserves as much ninformation we can find out, and as much effort by the developer as possible to solve it.

[Bluewings]

Let me put it this way : I see myself as a skillfull gunner but in some accasions when there are a LOT of trees ~I admit it :oops: ~ I let my AI gunner take over and he often fares better than me ...

Sure , he sometimes spend more rounds than I would , but it 's certainly not a "showstopper" .

Cheers . :3starSK:

[Lone*star49]

Yes, I know that Nobody 's perfect. Accurate Gunnery should have been right up there near the very top of the list. Same low shooting gunner in the A4 Leo. But the sight wobbles in a circle. If the AI Gunner hits it’s because he fired when the sight was at the top of the circle. Here the sight is at the bottom of the wobble. If you watch the Leo gunner he is really into randomized accuracy. At least the AI Gunners are consistant with their misses and low sight pictures.
...

Hey TK, and others, I would like to know both:

What is, or was, your Tank range "score" when this happened?
Type Tank too?

What "difficulty setting" did you have set?


LS

[TopKick]

All high settings. My gunnery score is 90 and 13 sec kill time ... I know I need more practice ... but I've seen sabot rounds pass through targets and not kill them on the range. I would like to see 1st round hit times recorded, but when you have to shoot several times to kill a target your times sink badly. At the time of the above little test I was using a Leo A4.

Not to set up a fight with Topkick, I believe him,

Don't worry about me. I'm just as miffed about the AI gunner as can be. In SB1 my AI gunner rarely missed and I only had a gunnery score of 95 ... I run mostly in the TC position and got dependant on a good gunner. Oh well.

[Lone*star49]

All high settings. My gunnery score is 90 and 13 sec kill time ... I know I need more practice ... but I've seen sabot rounds pass through targets and not kill them on the range. I would like to see 1st round hit times recorded, but when you have to shoot several times to kill a target your times sink badly. At the time of the above little test I was using a Leo A4.

Not to set up a fight with Topkick, I believe him,

Don't worry about me. I'm just as miffed about the AI gunner as can be. In SB1 my AI gunner rarely missed and I only had a gunnery score of 95 ... I run mostly in the TC position and got dependant on a good gunner. Oh well.
...

Hmmm this is strange, I have yet to hit a target on the range and not get the first shot kill, even when with a couple of shots, I spun the tanks, seemed low, yet got the kills.



Also, the good news here are the excellant graphics, and from the TC slot, you can look down and maybe give the gunner a shape-up-boot.. lol

One day at a time.


LS

[Ssnake]

... but I've seen sabot rounds pass through targets and not kill them on the range. I would like to see 1st round hit times recorded, but when you have to shoot several times to kill a target your times sink badly. At the time of the above little test I was using a Leo A4.
The range is set up in a way that the very first collision between a projectile and the target kills it immediately. It is definitely not necessary to shoot 'em twice on the range. If they are moving on after the hit, it would be a bug.

[TopKick]

The only one I have trouble killing on the range is the BRDM looking thing. The first round appears to pass through it, although it may be dead, it dont look like it and I try to get another round off before it vanishes. Wait! maybe I'm confusing the range with the moving target tutorial. :oops: LOL! The one that gets me every time is the one that turn toward me just as I fire, causing a miss. That miss and firing at it again screws up the time and score.

Sorry about the confusion! :oops:

[Skybird03]

On the range I can confirm every hit results in a kill. I NEVER had to hit any target twice. In game: I had gunners scoring with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th hit first with a tank range score of 0% in the beginning, then with 95% now. Difficulty levels set to medium and high.