Challenger II

[hawco916]

Looking at things from a British perspective here, just how good is this Tank compared to whats out there at present?, Some say it's got the best night gear etc, so, just how good is this Tank?

[chrisotto]

Crème de la Crème....

[Hell_Hound]

I've read American sources that call it "the best-protected tank in NATO".

The gun should be equally capable, I assume they can design a fire-control system as well as anyone.

I don't know what their optics are like, as far as magnification and TIS clarity, and I'd like to know if anyone else has magnifications comparable to the 50x on the M1A2-SEP's CITV.

[Brun]

Some of the most sophisticated armor the brits have to.

[m1a1vha]

50x on SEP?! i thought it was 15x! it cant be 50x, simply cant!

as for the Challenger2, its side turret armor is said to be as heavy as the front hull armor of the challenger1. it is a real monster, but its teeth are not that sharp. its payload is more along the lines of infantry support rather than antitank. it eaven fires smoke! the best SABOT it has is as good as the M829 and it uses HESH that are horribly inacurate weapons. its FCS is not as good as an M1's. i hear that in one excesise, they scored something like 60% accuracy.

[Mpat120]

Yes, 50x on Sep...also 25x, 13x, 6x, 3x

[Hackworth]

Yes, 50x on Sep...also 25x, 13x, 6x, 3x

Yup M1A1vha... The Iraqis are in for a rude awakening when the 4th ID arrives...

BBQ anyone?

:D

[Mpat120]

Note to all those who are droolin over the 50x on the SEP.....you CAN'T shoot in 25x, or 50X, it is a eletronic enhacement of the 13x and therefore not part of the boresighted system, nor is the FCS calabrated for that magnifacation. The 25x and 50x is for target Identifacation only.

[Hackworth]

LOL, right up to the very end as I was reading your post Mpat I was thinking "but you CAN ID THE TARGET!!!!!!!" Ahahaha then you stated it - lol. Hehe once again we agree. It is still a big advantage... you could walk your rounds onto a target if you really wished.. .you can play around with the settings... I read here (here meaning "old forum")somewhere that guys were training to fire sabot rounds with HEAT indexed to increase the range way beyond the envelope with sabot indexed. Anyone have that thread's URL or remember the topic or anything?

[Ssnake]

Note to all those who are droolin over the 50x on the SEP.....you CAN'T shoot in 25x, or 50X, it is a eletronic enhacement of the 13x and therefore not part of the boresighted system, nor is the FCS calabrated for that magnifacation. The 25x and 50x is for target Identifacation only. ...and, like you wrote, it doesn't provide more information than the 13x view since it just doubles the pixels (so the resolution is still the same).

[Kamatz]

There was a test I read about some years back (at least 2-3...can't remember). Someone tested most modern tanks in loads of different tasks. And although it wasn't best at anything, the Leo2A6, was found to be the best overall MTB. :D Wish I had saved the "report"..... :casstet:

[Ssnake]

Oh yeah, some analyst's report. Now, I am an ardent Leopard fan, but I just don't believe in pissing contests for tanks. It's like the "balanced scorecard method". It sounds reasonable, objective, and comparatively easy to use - but when you take a closer look, it's just the same arbitrary bullshit in a better looking wrapping. There is no such thing as THE Best tank. There is such a thing as a tank adequate for a certain solution, or a well-rounded package for most combat situations, or whatever. But even a technologically backwards tank can still beat the cutting edge if led more competently with a significantly better trained crew.


Oh, just in case you haven't heard of the Balanced Score Card method:
Say, you want to pick among several alternatives. You first define the criteria by which you want to judge the quality of each option, and then add a multiplier to each argument. Then assign points for each alternative in each category, multiply them with the "importance multiplier", and add the results. The alternative with the most points wins.

Unfortunately, by shifting the weighting of the multipliers and by arbitrary skewing of the points per criterium you can get any result you want. :o

[Mpat120]

You cant hit anything w/heat indexed fireing sabot....but you can get a range....drag out the fireing tables and the gunners quad and set the super-elevation your self, and adjust for your self.....BTW, the range of balistic solutions has been incresed to 5000m for main gun and 2000m for coax in the SEP....

Hack I think the post you are looking for has somethin to do with a T-72....I think I remember something about a post like that, just not where. (Oddball, maybe?)

[brazen]

apparantly the challanger knocked out near basra the other day was hit by another challanger in the side of the turret - blowing it clean off. the 2 crew members in the turret were killed instantly, while those in the hull were only lightly injured. given that the turret was popped, its remarkable that any crew survived. that in its self is a measure of its defensive strength.

on the downside,

i would be worried about a tank whos cross country speed is quite a bit slower than other tanks in its class. with it being quite significantly slower than russias newer tanks, it would be a worry.

[gbos]

There was a test I read about some years back (at least 2-3...can't remember). Someone[/I] tested most modern tanks in loads of different tasks. And although it wasn't best at anything, the Leo2A6, was found to be the best overall MTB. Wish I had saved the "report".....


During the autumn of 1998 six MBT namely M1A2 Abrams , Leopard 2A5, Challenger 2E, Leclerc, Russian T80 and Ukrainian T84 where tested simultaneously to a drill ground at Litohoro Greece. The tests were made with both foreign and Greek crew members which were trained at the facilities of each manufacturer. Every one of the tests could be repeated with crew members of the choice of the manufacturer and only the best performance where recorded. After the test Greek army choused the Leopard as the best performer. I don’t now if there were any political influence in the decision.

[stuart666]

50x on SEP?! i thought it was 15x! it cant be 50x, simply cant!

as for the Challenger2, its side turret armor is said to be as heavy as the front hull armor of the challenger1. it is a real monster, but its teeth are not that sharp. its payload is more along the lines of infantry support rather than antitank. it eaven fires smoke! the best SABOT it has is as good as the M829 and it uses HESH that are horribly inacurate weapons. its FCS is not as good as an M1's. i hear that in one excesise, they scored something like 60% accuracy.

Erm. Challenger 2's (the only british MBT still in service) use a fire control that is virtually the same as an abrams. Ive seen a simulator of it, and it looks nearly identical functionality wise to that in steel beasts.

Challenger 2 is a deeply misunderstood tank, probably because everyone assumes its very similar to challenger1. its not. The only similarity it has is the hull, and there are major changes there. The turret (gun and firecontrol also) are totally different. Challenger2 is VERY accurate. I know , i saw it on the ranges ;)
As for the ammo, certainly there have been disagreements on tanknet on its effectiveness. But most agree its not inferior to the Americans by any significant degree
Its Power per weight ratio is apparently identical to a T72. its not supebly fast, but its got a great suspension, and as we saw it barreling into basra, its not slow. There is a difference between speed and mobility, and i think that will show (to the vehicles advantage) in poor terrain.
Ssnakes right, you can cook the books to claim any tank is best. I personally would prefer a challenger 2 over its competitors in the enviroment it is currently fighting it. But thats just my opinion, based on its powerful (and accurate) hesh rounds, that are good for street fighting, and its superb armour.The later leopard2s and abrams are so close in abiltiy, its next to impossible to say any are better than the other. Even the t72 and t80 in some enviroments would be superb.

[Wolfman]

A couple of corrections are needed:
1) L27 APFSDS round is very good, probably near M829A2 in performance.
2) HESH is accurate. It may be slow, but that is why the gun is rifled.

[colin]

apparantly the challanger knocked out near basra the other day was hit by another challanger in the side of the turret - blowing it clean off. the 2 crew members in the turret were killed instantly, while those in the hull were only lightly injured. given that the turret was popped, its remarkable that any crew survived. that in its self is a measure of its defensive strength.

on the downside,

i would be worried about a tank whos cross country speed is quite a bit slower than other tanks in its class. with it being quite significantly slower than russias newer tanks, it would be a worry.



That’s what they said about the Centurion, it still came out as a great tank. I expect the Chally 2 to earn a reputation similar to the Centurion and the Chieftain for fighting ability. Let us hope they have learned from the Chieftain’s engine fiasco.

[I2R06]

I LOVE THIS THREAD.

I don't like to talk about which tank is best. But I love to see how the personality of each nation comes through in their tanks. Brits tend to like bigger, heavier, slower tanks with great armor. Remember its the Brits that invented Chobham. It makes sense that this would be a great urban tank. Germans have always emphasized maneuver warfare, so they tend to have lighter, faster, more maneuverable tanks. Americans like a jack of all trades that does everything. They tend to have more balanced tanks that are second best at everything and work well everywhere. They also tend to have a paranoia about not repeating the the WWII experience of putting Shermans up against Panthers and Tigers. Soviet tanks are discussed in another thread.

Notice I didn't put model numbers in the message. You can always find exceptions to the rule. But think about the trends.

[jaselong]

I have been a gunner on challenger 1 / 2, Abram, leopard Chieftain / Chieftain togs and used the simulator for Abram’s and all the British systems. Being British I’m probably a bit swayed towards the challenger option. The facts on the armour have all been very good on this thread as far as I can tell the main armament is also very versatile giving a good range of 120 mm rounds from smoke to canister rounds (not very good for the gun but great on infantry he he. The fire control system gets a bit complicated but it is very accurate especially with the thermal cameral being centred above the gun. By far the best tank that I have ever encountered as an all round MBT with a winning balance of speed armour and firepower. All others seem to specialise in two of the above as a tankie I prefer to have all covered and survive than trust government purchasing errors. All that said C2 is a very well made but limited edition tank for mass production MBT it’s got to be Abrams’s.
** I have removed comments that can be seen on a few replies below. Mainly due to the speculative element on careful consideration (for a change) I feel that these comments are not appropriate under the current situation. I’m sure whatever happens out there will be dealt with and rectified whatever happened. And at this time my thoughts go out to the crews involved and speculative comments will remain in my head where they should have stayed in the first place. Good luck to all those out there I am blessed to have served among such people!!!**

[brazen]

As for the friendly fire incident I would (only a guess no evidence to back this up) think it would have been on hunter killer mode this lets the commander allocate targets prior to the gunner engaging. The commander can get up to ten targets fully engaged. I would assume the commander allocated an additional target then the friendly call sign must have advanced into the line of fire. As I said only a guess but it could have been something to do with it. The fire control system gets a bit complicated but it is very accurate especially with the thermal cameral being centred above the gun.

the embedded reporter seemed to have the opinion that there was trouble with the target identification, and that because the tank wasn't identified as friendly, it was hit. i am hoping that if this is the case, it was an isolated problem in one of the tanks involved.

[stuart666]

I have been a gunner on challenger 1 / 2, Abram, leopard Chieftan / Chieftan togs and used the simulator for Abram’s and all the British systems. being British im probably a bit swayed towards the challenger option. (Challenger 1 is still in service). The facts on the armour have all been very good on this thread as far as I can tell the main armament is also very versatile giving a good range of 120 mm rounds from smoke to canister rounds (not very good for the gun but great on infantry he he. As for the friendly fire incident I would (only a guess no evidence to back this up) think it would have been on hunter killer mode this lets the commander allocate targets prior to the gunner engaging. The commander can get up to ten targets fully engaged. I would assume the commander allocated an additional target then the friendly call sign must have advanced into the line of fire. As I said only a guess but it could have been something to do with it. The fire control system gets a bit complicated but it is very accurate especially with the thermal cameral being centred above the gun. By far the best tank that I have ever encountered as an all round MBT with a winning balance of speed armour and firepower. All others seem to specialise in two of the above as a tankie I prefer to have all covered and survive than trust government purchasing errors. All that said C2 is a very well made but limited edition tank for mass production MBT it’s got to be Abrams’s.

I Agree with all that. One clarification, Challenger1 has been supplied to jordan, with only 130 odd left in the Uk. They all appear to be retained for conversion into AVREs or even bridgelayers to replace the aging chieftain in this role. Its not in service as a gun tank anymore, and probably will not be issued again till the conversion is carried out. of course in an emergency they might convert them to take the C2s L30 gun, but lets hope that doesnt have to happen...

As for the flechette round, i was reading the challenger manual and was greatly inpressed. Can they use these in L30 do you know, or is it just an L15 round? After all the L30s gun i would expect would handle it a bit better than the earlier gun, cos its supposed to be Tungsten lined. As we see in Basra, it could be pretty useful.

[3Star]

apparantly the challanger knocked out near basra the other day was hit by another challanger in the side of the turret - blowing it clean off. the 2 crew members in the turret were killed instantly, while those in the hull were only lightly injured. given that the turret was popped, its remarkable that any crew survived. that in its self is a measure of its defensive strength.


There are three in the turret, not two. I'm wondering if the removal of the turret from the ring wasn't just impact damage.

Anyone actually seen a photo of this? If the turret blew up, I can't see how the third turret crewman could have gotten away, must be another explanation.

NTM

[Chaplain]

apparantly the challanger knocked out near basra the other day was hit by another challanger in the side of the turret - blowing it clean off. the 2 crew members in the turret were killed instantly, while those in the hull were only lightly injured. given that the turret was popped, its remarkable that any crew survived. that in its self is a measure of its defensive strength.


There are three in the turret, not two. I'm wondering if the removal of the turret from the ring wasn't just impact damage.

Anyone actually seen a photo of this? If the turret blew up, I can't see how the third turret crewman could have gotten away, must be another explanation.

NTM

If the Challenger like the Abrams, in that the TC sits pretty high, then it seems possible that the dislocated turret is what killed the other two crew members. Are any of the CII's rounds capable of knocking a turret loose by the shear force of impact? Without penetrating, of course.

[stuart666]

Well challenger has High explosive squash head. for all we know it could have detonated against the turret ring (which would be a one in a million shot admittedly) and blown the turret out. Unlikely i admit.

Secondly it could have been a DU sabot detonating (or partially detonating) the charges in the turret bustle and blowing the turret off. I dont see any way the loader could have survived this however.

I agree with the analysis it could have had the loader and commander heads out the turret. But as far as im aware the loader survived and it was the gunner who was killed. I dont think it likely they would have been heads out in a combat zone anyway. In short we dont really know WHAT killed the tank. It was catastrophic enough to lift the turret off (and in one account i hear it subsequently burnt the tank out) yet mild enough that it didnt kill the other 2 crew. I wonder if it was a DU that killed the gunner and commander, the other crew bailed out, and the tank brewed up afterwards. If thats the case(and its just speculation), it speaks well of the charge bins.

[brazen]

I wonder if it was a DU that killed the gunner and commander, the other crew bailed out, and the tank brewed up afterwards. If thats the case(and its just speculation), it speaks well of the charge bins.

a remarkably plausable explanation...