Acceptable losses and control

[Winder]

What are considered acceptable losses in game, for example I just finished a SP desert engagement ( levels now set to full realism and high difficulty) in which I lost 14 units to the enemies 52, for this I acheived the victory conditions, Naturally the fewer losses the better, but what do the more experienced players average?

Also with regard to control of the AI and indeed your particular unit, in the planning phase we can set triggers, but these cannot be set in mission, yet I can see plenty of use for them if you hae a bit of time to set them up, say to deal with a situation not forseen, will this be a part of SB2? (by this I mean to set an "embark if, or retreat if" command once the game starts)

[Brad_Edmondson]

Due to the limits of the AI you can continue to expect high loses. When you get into MP games you'll find that the battlefield is dotted with smoking tombstones from both sides, often down to the last man standing. One team has to majorly screw up to get curb stomped like in your SP game.

Make the best use of conditional routes to make units 'smart.' With some experimentation you can even get a unit to jockey like a real person will, but it involves a very complicated route sequence.

[Winder]

Thanks for the reply Brad, at least I don't feel like I am making a huge lashup of it now!!

WRT the Triggers, what you say makes good sense of course but does not address the issue of having access to the trigger function "In Game", does anyone else feel this would be useful or am I making the usual newb daft noises?

[GsMcAmis]

Thanks for the reply Brad, at least I don't feel like I am making a huge lashup of it now!!

WRT the Triggers, what you say makes good sense of course but does not address the issue of having access to the trigger function "In Game", does anyone else feel this would be useful or am I making the usual newb daft noises?

This is something that would really be nice to have. It is being discussed as a 'possible' option for SB2. Many others have requested this as well.
Hang in there and it might yet happen.

For now a workaround for this would be to set up these routes in the panning phase... take your time and set up tons of them and then you will be able to move them after the game starts. Then save the plan and do not save over it... that way you can import the saved plan everytime you start the game. Now this si a time consuming way fo doing it... but it does work.

[Winder]

I hope it is a part of SB2!! It would be very useful. I do see the good point of setting many up before hand for an SP mission, but for MP I can see the ability to create command type decisions for units elsewhere being a real useful feature, I am very inexperienced with the game altogether for sure, but the bit of time I have had online I could see times when setting a trigger would have been of benefit.

On a similar note, why is the LOS funtion removed in game, is it considered a cheat or something? If not, I could really see it playing a major role in game as well.

[Ssnake]

Performance reasons. We have to check a 5km radius around the clicked position, at 12.5m resolution. Pi x 5000² / 12.5² = 503,000 points to be calculated, and the result be rendered to the screen. Nah, you don't want that.

As far as the situations are concerned when you would need a trigger during the action phase, please describe such a situation. I doubt that you couldn't deal with it with the tools that you have at hand, but maybe you just don't know it. Let me help you help yourself. :)

[Hell_Hound]

Also Winder, there is a LOS function available in the game, albeit in a different form.

On the map, alt-click a point and drag the cursor around...if the circle is empty there's no LOS between the indicated points, if the circle goes black then there is.

(Or is it alt-right-click? I can do it without thinking in the game, but can't visualize it right now...)

[Winder]

Understand on the LOS.
Something similar then, I notice that the map whites out during the action phase, this makes it pretty difficult to know wether a contour is higher or lower than the adjoing one, if it retained the colour codes for high and low ground it would be far easier to read and realistic as maps have MSL marks for each line.

Triggers, one situation I can think of when a trigger might be useful would be when you wished to have a timed assault by several groups, once the action starts if you set a new route the unit embarks as soon as the checkpoint is set, if you could set a trigger you could have several units ready to go at the same instant.
I'm sure that if others have requested the feature they could think of examples too.
I also think it simulates reality a bit better, in the sense that many attacks are co-ordinated affairs contolled by timing and signals etc ( at least I imagine they are)
You can of course time things by setting speeds differnt to allow for the "mouse management" but it is an awful lot of clicking to get done on the hop, and easy to make an error too.

[Winder]

Ah nice one HH, that is a very useful tip m8!!

[Hell_Hound]

You'll like this too - while you're in the game, go into the map and press and hold the space bar.

:D

[Winder]

LOL!!!!! I'll be..... :D

[Ssnake]

Triggers, one situation I can think of when a trigger might be useful would be when you wished to have a timed assault by several groups, once the action starts if you set a new route the unit embarks as soon as the checkpoint is set, if you could set a trigger you could have several units ready to go at the same instant.You can achieve a similar effect if you create checkpoints nearby, and create the routes from there. Once you have set all the movement routes to the desired locations, create a movement path to the nearby checkpoints, and everybody will start almost simultaneously.
Good enough for my taste.I also think it simulates reality a bit better, in the sense that many attacks are co-ordinated affairs contolled by timing and signals etc ( at least I imagine they are)Absolutely - but that's your job in the planning phase! If you want the entire company to turn around, that does require some coordination, but I also think that it can be done on the fly in SB. You may want to have everybody slow down, though - just like in real life...You can of course time things by setting speeds differnt to allow for the "mouse management" but it is an awful lot of clicking to get done on the hop, and easy to make an error too. Yeah, but that's the just penalty for skipping the planning phase because you're too eager to see some action. ;)

We'll address some of these issues in SB2, though. ;)

[Lone*star49]

...
Ok.. I am at a loss.. I have never understood how to get a unit that is under heavy attack (AI units).. that will take a retreat route to safer grounds..

Is it setting a chkmrk.. and set tactic too guard.. then proceed to the main BP chkmrk and set Guard.. ?

As you can see.. still confused

Appreciate any tips.. other than setting trigger events.. haven't a clue as to what they do other than in making a scenario.. and applying them at given times..

Again.. may be totally wrong.. just need to know how to route with what tactics so if they (AI units) come under heavy attack.. they retreat to safer grounds on their own..

Love to show my reading skills.. NOT

thanks.. LS :(

[Hell_Hound]

[quote]...You can achieve a similar effect if you create checkpoints nearby, and create the routes from there. Once you have set all the movement routes to the desired locations, create a movement path to the nearby checkpoints, and everybody will start almost simultaneously. Good enough for my taste.[quote]

A minor variation on the above: on your "line of departure", create for each unit a checkpoint with hold/defend/guard orders, then create the routes for The Big Attack from those checkpoints. Once everybody's sitting on their hold points, you can turn them loose pretty quickly by going to the map and selecting Proceed for each unit. (I guess you could also do this by hitting F9 and C really fast, if you need to get your whole force moving.)

Even when I've made a sincere effort to analyze a map and plan ahead, all it takes is a tiny glimmer of intelligence on the part of the enemy to totally screw my plan and force me to micromanage and start jumping into gunner's seats...so trigger-activated, coordinated attacks are quite beyond my experience.

Maybe I should take a scenario I know very well and force myself to rework it over and over until I get a plan that will shred the opposition with no intervention from me except maybe setting some triggers. Might be educational.

(HH walks away mumbling to himself)

[Hell_Hound]

...
Ok.. I am at a loss.. I have never understood how to get a unit that is under heavy attack (AI units).. that will take a retreat route to safer grounds..

Is it setting a chkmrk.. and set tactic too guard.. then proceed to the main BP chkmrk and set Guard.. ?


There's more. Create the checkpoint, set tactics to guard, then create a non-conditioned route from that checkpoint to wherever you want your guys to go. Any time you hear AI tanks saying "Permission to retreat", it means they'd leave their BP if only they had a route to follow. Guarding tanks do this as soon as they're under fire, Defending tanks do this when they've taken "moderate casualties" and Holding tanks are in "not a step backwards" mode and won't budge.

The book says they follow "the first non-conditioned route"...I think that means the one that takes them to the lowest-numbered checkpoint, but I've been wrong before.

(Why am I helping Lonestar get even better at this game?) :(

[Lone*star49]

...

Ok.. see if I have this right.. I use LOS to find the main BP I want a AI unit to "defend"..

I route to first.. a safe retreat area and put chk mrk.. with Guard.. then when they get there.. hit proceed.. and they go to main BP.. with Defend orders, and if they take heavy enough losses, they ask permission to retreat.. Then what do I have to do..? clk on that unit and hit "?? or do they do it automatically?

And as far as you helping me get better, look at it this way, with the maxed out frustration level I have come too regarding the M1 sights, and losing the 2 sec advantage I usually get, I leaning heavly toward fighting in Leos, unitl I find a stick that I can adjust the sensitivity so I don't fight oslaiting sights.. and such.. and that means I'll be on your side.. LOL

Appreciate the help.. really do.. :thumbup:
LS :)

[Hell_Hound]

Ok.. see if I have this right.. I use LOS to find the main BP I want a AI unit to "defend"..

Yep.

I route to first.. a safe retreat area and put chk mrk.. with Guard.. then when they get there.. hit proceed.. and they go to main BP.. with Defend orders, and if they take heavy enough losses, they ask permission to retreat..

If the route exists, they won't even ask. If you send them to Defend checkpoint 4 (regardless of how they get there), and there's an unconditioned route from checkpoint 4 to checkpoint 11, then as soon as they take moderate losses they'll embark on the route to checkpoint 11. I think you just get the basic red message saying "1-B proceeding to checkpoint 11".

Then what do I have to do..? clk on that unit and hit "?? or do they do it automatically?

If there's a route leading off the BP, there's no intervention by you whatsoever. They just do it, and you get a message saying that they're doing it.

And as far as you helping me get better, look at it this way, with the maxed out frustration level I have come too regarding the M1 sights, and losing the 2 sec advantage I usually get, I leaning heavly toward fighting in Leos, unitl I find a stick that I can adjust the sensitivity so I don't fight oslaiting sights.. and such.. and that means I'll be on your side.. LOL

Sounds good. I tell myself that the Leo makes me a better tanker 'cause it's less forgiving. Playing the Leo 1A5 should make me bloody brilliant. :D

[Lone*star49]

ok.. time for the puppet show (as brad says..lol) if I route to main BP.. with Defend, from that point.. route retreat route to wherever and put gaurd tactics? or is it the other way around.. first.. guard.. then main BP.. with defend.. and if conditions call for it.. they return?

PUPPET SHOW: AA............... ckk mrk-gaurd.."proceed"............. Main BP..defend..
and if trouble.. they automatically return to chkmrk Guard?

OR

AA................................. Main BP-defend but if trouble make route from there.............................. chk mark..gaurd?

Clown puppets Please...lol

LS :P

[Hell_Hound]

Ok, you have one tank platoon (1-1/A) and want to fight from a ridge. As soon as you lose two tanks you want to pull back to the next ridge.

(Starting with nothing on the map except your platoon.)

"...battle carry say-boh...loader ready, say-boh loaded..."

F5.
Right click your platoon.

New route > March. Clicka, clicka, clicka, right-click after placing your last point just behind the ridge. The end of the route becomes CP 1.

Right-click CP 1. Set tactics to Defend. Point the battle bar in the direction of the bad guys.

Right-click CP1. New route, retreat (or whatever), clicka, clicka, (draw a route off the ridge and into a safe location), right click to end the route. The end of the route becomes CP 2.

M1s roll up to CP1 and go into "Defend" mode, fanning out into a line and creeping forward until they have BPs. You drop into the F8 view, shriek in horror at some of the BPs they've chosen, adjust them a little and then go downstairs to get some pickled eggs.

While you're gone, bad men rain doom upon your tanks, destroying two of them. The remaining two, their "retreat condition" satisfied, instantly embark on the route to checkpoint 2, assuming its formation, speed, spacing and all that other good stuff.

You come back upstairs and your two surviving tanks are sitting on CP 2, uncertain what to do next. If you had put CP 2 on another defensible position and given it Guard or Defend or Hold orders (possibly with another bug-out route leading away) your survivors would dig in and prepare to do the whole process over again.

Hope this helps. I'm a teacher so my professional pride is on the line. :)

[Winder]

It helps me that's for sure! :D

[Lone*star49]

It helps me that's for sure! :D
...

Me too.. Thanks HH, as the Puppet show has given me a sinse of..

"Enlightenment.." now my AI units will live longer for another battle..

WELL DONE :thumbup:

LS ;)

[Ssnake]

There's more. Create the checkpoint, set tactics to guard, then create a non-conditioned route from that checkpoint to wherever you want your guys to go. Any time you hear AI tanks saying "Permission to retreat", it means they'd leave their BP if only they had a route to follow.It is important to realize that if there is no unconditioned retreat route at all, these units will default to Hold tactics regardless of the battle position command given. A platoon can only behave according to Guard or Defend orders if it is being told where to go when the "evasion threshold" has been crossed. The book says they follow "the first non-conditioned route"...I think that means the one that takes them to the lowest-numbered checkpoint, but I've been wrong before.No, actually that's the last unconditioned route added, so it's best to have but one unconditioned route emerging from a checkpoint to avoid confusion.

[Lone*star49]

[quote][quote]There's more. Create the checkpoint, set tactics to guard, then create a non-conditioned route from that checkpoint to wherever you want your guys to go.

It is important to realize that if there is no unconditioned retreat route at all, these units will default to Hold tactics regardless of the battle position command given. A platoon can only behave according to Guard or Defend orders if it is being told where to go when the "evasion threshold" has been crossed. [quote]
...

No wonder.. Damn :casstet:

Enlightenment has hit me again.. And it was Good

LS ;)

[Skip]

Ssnake, something that has confused me and kept me from using "unconditioned retreat routes" is... Why do the units not take that route as soon as they hit the checkpoint it's attached to? It seems like if there is no condition on the route to specify WHEN to take it then the units would take it by default as soon as they could. What keeps them from taking it prior to needing to retreat?

Please dispell my confusion.

[Lone*star49]

Ssnake, something that has confused me and kept me from using "unconditioned retreat routes" is... Why do the units not take that route as soon as they hit the checkpoint it's attached to? It seems like if there is no condition on the route to specify WHEN to take it then the units would take it by default as soon as they could. What keeps them from taking it prior to needing to retreat?

Please dispell my confusion.
...

Gonna take a swipe at this (most likely wrong..lol) but by setting a BP with defend or Guard orders i.e. tactics, with a unconditioned "retreat" route.. if they insue too much damage, or see the enemy while on gaurd then a "tactical condiontion" has been met.. and they automatically take the retreat route..

If it was a conditoned route.. would they have to meet some sort of condtion, like..
if no enemy is seen in 5 mins, then proceed to next chk point.. then a "condition" is met and off they go on a "conditioned route?"

Someone get me a ladder to get out of this hole..

Waiting for the right answer..

LS ;)

[Hell_Hound]

You could set those additional conditions in the planning phase (like the 5-minutes-of-boredom condition) but otherwise when a unit gets to a checkpoint with Guard/Defend/Hold orders they'll stay put until:

a) On Guard orders, they come under fire.
b) On Defend orders, they sustain moderate casualties.
c) A preprogrammed embark condition kicks in, like a trigger or "1-1/A cannot see enemy..."
d) From the map, you select Proceed.
e) From that callsign, you hit C for Continue on route...equivalent to Proceed.

[Winder]

I take Ssnakes point about setting things up right in the planning phase, and I have been putting more effort in, but for sure it takes a hell of a lot of work, and then once you start suddenly you see you made a small error which will affect the results, or the enemy does not do as you predicted and you need to make a change on the fly, a classic would be setting up a static defence as in the tutorial, ( I did that recently, it's pretty quick to do and effective!) you could easily set one of these positions up mid game, or make a correction to a plan, hence the value of control over triggers and conditions, embark if, retreat if and events in game.
I know you said these thing are being addressed mate, but I just wanted to give these examples as I could not remember them the other day!! :D

[Ssnake]

I recommend thorough study of chapters 7 and 8 in the manual. The movement and battle position tactics have implicit embark conditions. They were intended for some very basic maneuvers for all those of you who either don't get the hang of boolean logic or the interface in the dialog boxes, or for less complicated scenarios where it would be overkill to create explicit conditions for every single thing. It's an example of our design philosophy to let the computer take micromanagement lworkload from the player so he can assist on the tactical aspects. But for that to work, you must know how to actually use the given instruments.

Also, remember to save your plans, so you can load them next time and improve those areas that you identified as inadequate in the last run. Keep plans flexible. If you are too rigid in the placement of routes and battle positions, you will need a lot of trial and error reruns before you get the "perfect" static plan. It's better to have "plan fragments", e.g. a system of alternate battle positions linked to each other through a net of retreat and assault routes with a single entry point. That way you can send a platoon to cover a certain ridge line and shift their positions without the need to give detailed commands after they reach that entry point.

You can even copy the entire network of these alternate battle positions by right-click "Copy route chain" and pasting it to other entry points. You will need to adjust the waypoints and BP directions, but it's a really quick solution that allows you to cover the entire battlespace with these standard elements. The more you learn to utilize these tools, the less overwhelming will even a large battle be. It requires some practice, but I think that it really is convenient and a decent balance between complexity/tool power on the one hand, and flexible and easy use on the other.

[Hussar]

All this makes things a lot plainer. Couple of queries though:

1) Am I correct in assuming that the main use of triggers is as remote 'C' or 'Proceed' keys (e.g. allows you to tell units set on those triggers to carry on). I can see little other use for them. In the Hasty Defence (IIRC) scenario it doesn't matter how many times I hit Shift 6, either before or after I get the 'Break contact order' nothing happens and I can't work out why.

2) Is 50% the moderate loss condition the game applies for unconditioned (e.g. non player designated conditions) routes when a unit has defend orders? 50% seems quite high to me and I would have hoped that it was 1 tank (I know you can set it by way of conditioned routes but 50% does seem a high default).

3) If you micromanage tank positions when they arrive at a BP, will the fact that they have been separated from the platoon mean that only those still 'Attached' will take the next route when conditions are met? By way of example. I have a platoon go to CP1 and adopt 'Defend'. Like HH says, some of their positions leave a lot to be desired so I modify them. This separates any tank I move individually from the platoon. That BP has a non-conditioned route to BP2 which also has 'Defend' etc. Now, when the platoon takes its 'moderate losses' will the whole remaining platoon depart for BP2 or will the fact that I've separated some mean that only those that are still part of 1A go? I ask because if I have to hit 'Attach to' to get them back so they'll all move it tends to defeat the object of me adjusting their positions becuase they just drop back into line and adopt the same crap positions again.

[Ssnake]

1) Am I correct in assuming that the main use of triggers is as remote 'C' or 'Proceed' keysTriggers can be used in a variety of ways by the scenario designer (should be mentioned in paragraph 5 of the briefing (Command and Signals)). Triggers are the tool of choice to coordinate actionas that require eight arms and a human brain (e.g. that are complicated to define through standard conditions when you are in the planning phase). In this regard they indeed are the "remote 'proceed'" command you mentioned.
Triggers also are a quick and dirty solution for the lazy. You know that at some point you want all your units to cross a phase line simultaneously, but don't want to think too hard how to define this in boolean logic and complicated conditions. Well use a trigger instead, and make the decision on the fly during the mission.2) Is 50% the moderate loss condition the game applies for unconditioned (e.g. non player designated conditions) routes when a unit has defend orders? 50% seems quite high to me and I would have hoped that it was 1 tank (I know you can set it by way of conditioned routes but 50% does seem a high default).I'm not sure about the exact threshold, but as far as I can remember it's the loss of a single tank in a formation. Well, you can set up a primitive scenario by yourself to test just that. After all, the mission editor isn't much more complicated than the planning phase.3) If you micromanage tank positions when they arrive at a BP, will the fact that they have been separated from the platoon mean that only those still 'Attached' will take the next route when conditions are met?Yes. You could create a retreat route for that detached tank with the embark condition to follow if the rest of the platoon has reached the checkpoint at the end of their retreat route, but generally it is questionable whether you should waste your time and energy to micromanage the computer controlled units in that way.