The self-healing minefield

[rump]

Go check this out: http://www.darpa.mil/ato/programs/SHM/index.html

How would you breach it?

Rump

[attackrat]

Sharpshooters at the ready to shoot "hopping" mines? :o

[Hackworth]

You wouldn't breach it - you would go around it ;)

[rump]

I myself had the idea to first breach it (with artillery) and then fill the breach with FASCAM and let those 'smart' mines hop to their own destruction...

Rump

[Hackworth]

LOL.

IMO: Yea, but the odds of geting one of those mines to jump onto another is pretty remote lol. Arty tends to throw mines around instead of detonating them from what i understand. Yea, I thought they blew paths too, but Ssnake says no. I was an artillery man (13M MLRS), but I think I'd have to believe Ssnake. I don't beleieve I was ever told they do... it was just something I assumed or maybe saw in a movie or read in a book (not a good basis for reality :) ). So, like I said, I believe Ssnake. Arty will just move the mines around if anything.

MOMO: Arty & minefields are generaly used to fix an enemy or deny him a route - not to take its toll in numbers of KIA. More to make you not want to go there after seeing your buddy go up. I think the best way to deal with this would be to gather as much information on where the field begins and ends...and then bypass the damn thing. Clearing a minefield would be good for suprise if the enemy were so certain it would not be attacked that they did not cover it with fire. So, you could breach in peace while they expected you to be attacking elsewhere (a good idea to have an active diversion going on)... Then you pop out on their exposed flank or rear and gobble them up.

MOMO: But how often is a minefield at least not covered with INF or ATGMs? You loose supprise by detection and it does you no good to breach there expected... You'll get in a serous fight you can't manuever out of in the middle of a breaching op. You would really want to have a damn good reason to want to clear a minefield, i.e., it lies across a highway, bridge or road...

How many reasons can you think of other than this? I'd really like to hear any other thoughts on how to get around a minefield like this...

[Captain_Thunder]

Considering that the field is breachable by some device(s) that is going to clear a lane through the mine field in the first place, I would attempt to clear an extremely wide lane through the minefield making it much harder for the remaining mines to redeploy themselves into any effective pattern in the previously cleared area. After all there are a finite number of mines and the wider the breach the thinner the re-established minefield should be.

Since the mines are surface scatterable, they should be detectable and by judging the density and depth of the minefield one should be able to work out how wide the breach needs to be to make the refilling of the breach by the mines impossible or ineffective.

Since we don't know how high, how far, or how many hops these mines can make it puts all discussions on how to defeat it in the realm of fiction. For example, since the mines would most likely fill the breach from the sides where the remaining mines are located it may be possible to deploy some sort of vertically arranged netting along the sides of the cleared lane to capture any of the mines attempting to hop in to fill the area.

An example might be to have a group of mine clearning tanks with plough blades run side by side through the minefield. Then either have them tow a trailer that unwinds a vertical net off a spool along the outer edges of the lane as they proceed along with the one end anchored at their start point, or have secondary vehicles following close on the heels of the mineclearing tanks doing this task. It's relatively low-tech and not too hard to implement as long as the mines aren't hopping 20 or 30 feet into the air.

[Ssnake]

The German Weitbereichsmine cannot be appropriately cleared either. It locates approaching vehicles (be them AFVs or mine clearing vehicles), and launches top attack munition then, up to 150m of radius around it. You can't hope to coming close enough to it to remove it, and because each mine covers such a wide area, you only need few and can hide them well.
Oh yeah, it's artillery deliverable and can be programmed to attach only certain vehicle types. ;)

It doesn't take explosive frogs to create a breach resistant minefield.

[sanddancer1]

If the minefield can move to seal a breach. How far could you program it to move in mass :o

[GsMcAmis]

Jam them... then breach them.

[attackrat]

Of course, how could we forget jamming? :casstet:

[Werewolf]

Orig by HackworthLOL.

MOMO
[Edited on 4/14/2003 by Hackworth]

MOMO...

MOMO???

MOMO!!!

Just what the hell is a MOMO???

[Lone*star49]

Orig by HackworthLOL.

MOMO
[Edited on 4/14/2003 by Hackworth]

MOMO...

MOMO???

MOMO!!!

Just what the hell is a MOMO???

...

LOL WW.. generating my code breaking thoughts..

M ore O f M y O pinion .. (Opinions)

Don't take it to the bank yet.. ;)

[Hell_Hound]

First time it's used, knock them out with an EMP bomb.

Hand the disabled mines over to intel so they can figure out how to tell the mines that there's a great big breach somewhere in the enemy's logistics area, and they should hustle over there right away and heal it.

Crack a beer, wait until the cries of misery subside, then continue the advance.

[Werewolf]

Go check this out: http://www.darpa.mil/ato/programs/SHM/index.html

How would you breach it?

Rump

Hell that's easy.

Based on the way the sucker works just keep breaching it until all those smart mines are used up. Of course that would only work if you had time and resources to do it that way. Otherwise I'm with Hack - just go around the darn thing.

As an aside anytime someone invents a weapon like that it's only a matter of time until someone else invents a counter.

[Ssnake]

How would you breach it?
Rump

Hell that's easy.

Based on the way the sucker works just keep breaching it until all those smart mines are used up. Of course that would only work if you had time and resources to do it that way. Otherwise I'm with Hack - just go around the darn thing.Which is precisely what obstacles are about. To slow you down, or make you choose the path that plays into the hands of the defender.

;) :exclam:

[GsMcAmis]

I'm with HH... they wouldnt be hard to 'hear' being that there wou8ld be dozens maybe hundreds talking to each other all at once...

"Sir, we hear a mine field!"
"Send all known codes."

Ten seconds later "KeeeeeeeeeYA! huUUP! UNGH! Lookit Meeeeeeeeee!" <-- the sound of 250 mines hopping their little hearts out.

"Over there sir!!!"
"Funny to watch arnt they Jennings."
"Sure are sir.... and damned ineffective."
"Wonder how much they paid for those things?"

I'd be more interested in the German Mines or the anti-personel rail-guns used in place of mines (you can set 6 of those up and one man operaties it. He can be sitting dead center of the killing zone and sucker a group in [if he so desired] press the trigger and everything in teh kill zone dies).

This is interesting as all hell too.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/gs/story.japan.invisible.ap.jpeg

There is a camera on the back of his jacket.

The whole story as per CNN (looking for other links)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/02/07/japan.invisible.ap/index.html

Leave it to the Japanese to take TV making to this kind of level... hehe... smart folks those guys.

[Wolfman]

Nuke the minefield.

[brazen]

unleash smallpox on them before they lay the damn thing.

[Hackworth]

LOL

MOMO: Yer goona like this one... "More Of My Opinion" ROFLMAO...

Hehe you got it on the nose Ls ;)

[Lone*star49]

LOL

MOMO: Yer goona like this one... "More Of My Opinion" ROFLMAO...

Hehe you got it on the nose Ls ;)

[Edited on 4/18/2003 by Hackworth]

...

Hackworth.. you beautiful bastdard.. I read your book! LOL

LS :P

[RichardD]

Thermabolic munitions. Fuel/air bombs and missiles.

These would do the job perfectly, the soviets have a whole range including the RPO-A which is a handheld one.

The beauty is that these guys don't dig down and throw up like arty does- they concuss and do damage by blast and heat. The blast will apply enormous pressure to anything under the explosion radius (open air I think they have missiles with over 500m2) and this pressure would detonate any sort of mine.

The MOAB is probably just the beginning of f/a munitions by the US that would be used in much the same way.

[Newbie-Olle]

How to breech it?
The same way as clearing!
Send the self destruct code or disarm them manually, one by one.

One pre-requisit of a good minefield is that it can be easily cleared in non-combat conditions, to allow civilian use of the area.

Cheers
Olle

[Krans]

Thermabolic munitions. Fuel/air bombs and missiles.

These would do the job perfectly, the soviets have a whole range including the RPO-A which is a handheld one.

The beauty is that these guys don't dig down and throw up like arty does- they concuss and do damage by blast and heat. The blast will apply enormous pressure to anything under the explosion radius (open air I think they have missiles with over 500m2) and this pressure would detonate any sort of mine.

The MOAB is probably just the beginning of f/a munitions by the US that would be used in much the same way.

You can only rely on the physical destruction/displacement... Many modern mines resist momentary overpressures... The Italians, I believe, make some nifty ones they sold to the Iraqis last time. And if 1,250 lbs of C4 (a line charge) don't detonate a mine when it's right next to it, I wouldn't count on an airburst a hundred feet away doing so.

[nimo]

Thermabolic munitions. Fuel/air bombs and missiles.

These would do the job perfectly, the soviets have a whole range including the RPO-A which is a handheld one.

The beauty is that these guys don't dig down and throw up like arty does- they concuss and do damage by blast and heat. The blast will apply enormous pressure to anything under the explosion radius (open air I think they have missiles with over 500m2) and this pressure would detonate any sort of mine.

The MOAB is probably just the beginning of f/a munitions by the US that would be used in much the same way.

the israli army uses somthig like this, the "carpet" but the brich width of modern mine filds is only 2 meters

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/mines/carpet/Carpet.html

(buy the way, that puma is my ride)

[RichardD]

Believe me- a C4 charge is a pebble compared to a boulder in this case.

For one thing: a C4 line charge is beside the mines- it is trying to displace them sideways, shock them into detonating or physically damage ones that are underneath. Most of the impact force goes straight up or straight down which limits its effectivness.

A fuel/air bomb goes off about 50-100 meters overtop the field, it's coverage would be much greater as airburst gives it a higher surface area affected. This blast is mostly pressure, approximatly 5000-20,000 psi depending on where you are and how big the bomb is. That is not a "temporary overpressure". If the mine isn't detonated by that it isn't going to detonate. Don't forget the bigger ones (MOAB) are equal to a small nuclear device without radiation side effects.

this means that currently the soviets (and probably in the near future the americans) are fully capable of using these munitions in S-S or air delivery to blast a corridor in any sort of minefield known to man. It was afaik a signifigant part of soviet breakout tactics to use air delivery and FROG launched ones to punch holes through any mined approaches they wanted to use in europe.

[ShotMagnet]

The biggest problems with thermobaric bombs, to my knowledge, are the very particular enviromental conditions that have to exist at the time of detonation. There can't be more than a mild breeze, if that. It can't be raining, and there can't be anything else happening that would affect the proper dispersion of the fuel. Timing is critical for a TB weapon. The fuel has to disperse to a fairly precise concentration, and it has to be detonated at just that moment, not before or after, otherwise the effectiveness of the weapon suffers, to the point where it may not detonate.
Pretty much, the employment of TB weapons would therefore be limited to calm days, and even then a gust of wind could disperse the fuel to the point where a detonation might not happen. With the MOAB that might not be as much of an issue. With smaller TB bombs, it would.


Shot

[jaselong]

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is preparing to use anti-personnel land mines in a war with Iraq, despite U.S. policy that calls for the military to stop using the mines everywhere in the world except Korea by 2003.
To prepare for a possible war with Baghdad, the Pentagon has stockpiled land mines at U.S. bases in countries ringing Iraq, according to Pentagon records. The decision to make the mines available comes despite a recent report by the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative arm, concluding that their use in the 1991 Gulf War impeded U.S. forces while doing nothing to impair Iraqi forces.

Using the mines would stoke the international debate over the merits and morality of using land mines, which can remain deadly long after fighting ends.

From 15,000 to 20,000 people are killed or maimed worldwide each year by land mines, according to the United Nations. Of those, 80% are civilians and one-third are children.

Military experts say land mines can save soldiers' lives. They play a "vital and essential role" in battle by restricting where the enemy can move and protecting U.S. troops, said a Pentagon spokesman.

Officially, the Pentagon will say only that it "retains the right to use" land mines wherever it chooses, and that commanders can get approval to use them under rules designed to minimize risk to non-combatants.

I find it quite disturbing that such a system is still in development. Otherwise the british method of clearing standard mine fiels is listed below.

MINE CLEARANCE

GIANT VIPER

The Giant Viper is a system which is used for clearing lanes through a minefield. It consists of a rocket attached to an explosive-filled hose, which is carried in a special trailer. The trailer, containing rocket and hose, can be towed behind vehicles such as the CHAVRE, CET or FV 432.

The trailer is positioned 150m from the edge of the minefield and the rocket is fired, propelling the explosive-filled hose into, or right across, the minefield. The subsequent explosion of the hose will breach a lane 180m long and 7.3m wide. Trials and research suggest that in a 'cleared' lane over 90 per cent of anti-tank mines will have been destroyed.

Specifications

Trailer Weight 2136kgs

Hose Length 230m

Cleared Zone 183 m x 7.3m wide

[jaselong]

Just a thought on this. If the FEBA was located across the Mid West USA would the Government be quick to develop mine fields that would certainly have a devastating effect on the local civi's. A few America children with no legs or arms blown off would start to seem rather more barbaric. Just because the wars we fight are in far away lands does not give us the right to have double standards on acceptable losses. This is not a dig at America its a sort of dig at humanity or inhumanity.

[Gunfighter]

Perhaps we can invest in a lot of Mine Plows. Instead of every 1 tank in a Troop (Platoon) equiped w/ a plow, let all of them be armed with one. (Full Rake Mine plows - so that they can double as Buldozers.) That still won't stop the German Stand-off mines, unless David Drake, Phalanx and AI software come together and give us the Hovertank's CIWS.

If this fails, why not an automated Mine Clearing Robot, armed w/ a .50 Cal Barret (and a lot of ammo). If it finds a mine, shoot. Pair it up w/ a Canine or a Piglet(better nose sensors) to detect buried mine fields and you have a great Mammal-machine pair. The Robot has to be portable enough so that every tank can carry four (on the outside). They can double as Scout/ Snipers and extended eyes/ears for the Tank. They can even change the Barret for a Milan 3, Eryx or a Kornet. (Or a GPMG - No more sentry duty.)

[RichardD]

Shot- that would only apply to earlier designs. Current ones will probably work in any conditions as they use more persistant aerosols and higher volatility fuels.

I like gunfighters idea. Especially the part about the GPMG for sentry duty :D

No more cold feet!