Another one for The List - Neutrals

[RecceDG]

Here's another one for the list. Sadly, it's not a "5 minute fix" (although it does build on a number of existing components). Happily, it would add a lot more depth and training realism and make for some fascinating scenarios.

I want Neutral units, as follows:

1) All units have a status flag, with the following potential values:

a) Hostile
b) Neutral
c) Friendly, non-player-controlled
d) Friendly, player controlled.

2) The status flag is connected to the standard SB event/condition/trigger logic engine, such that a scenario designer can do "Change status to hostile if event FOO"

3) Neutral units are not targeted by the AI (friendly and enemy)

4) The scoring engine is neutral-aware, so that points can be added/subtracted for killing neutrals.

5) There are a couple of new infantry sprites, for civvies dressed in various forms of dress (I'm thinking "Western", "Middle East/Afghan", and "African" to start)

6) ADVANCED: There are *TWO* status flags, one for "actual status" and another for "perceived status" ("perceived" can only be hostile, neutral, friendly NPC) There are new key commands for "designate current target as hostile/neutral/friendly" that changes the perceived status of that unit in the crosshairs of the active weapon system (or binos) and perceived status is also hooked into the logic system.

I'm sure y'all can see what this would add to a scenario designer's toolbox.

DG

[Grenny]

Here's another one for the list. Sadly, it's not a "5 minute fix" (although it does build on a number of existing components). Happily, it would add a lot more depth and training realism and make for some fascinating scenarios.

I want Neutral units, as follows:

1) All units have a status flag, with the following potential values:

a) Hostile
b) Neutral
c) Friendly, non-player-controlled
d) Friendly, player controlled.

2) The status flag is connected to the standard SB event/condition/trigger logic engine, such that a scenario designer can do "Change status to hostile if event FOO"

3) Neutral units are not targeted by the AI (friendly and enemy)

4) The scoring engine is neutral-aware, so that points can be added/subtracted for killing neutrals.

5) There are a couple of new infantry sprites, for civvies dressed in various forms of dress (I'm thinking "Western", "Middle East/Afghan", and "African" to start)

6) ADVANCED: There are *TWO* status flags, one for "actual status" and another for "perceived status" ("perceived" can only be hostile, neutral, friendly NPC) There are new key commands for "designate current target as hostile/neutral/friendly" that changes the perceived status of that unit in the crosshairs of the active weapon system (or binos) and perceived status is also hooked into the logic system.

I'm sure y'all can see what this would add to a scenario designer's toolbox.

DG


I bet thats on the list of some military customers also.
Speaking for the Bw...nearly 70% of all training is "im erweiterten Aufgabenspetrum" i.e.: peace keeping, peace enforcing and stuff.
So with these tools you'd have the chance to give the soldiers a simulation in their most likely deployment situation.

Well, I hope to see it getting into one or the other PE uprgrade.

[Skybird03]

a quick "fix" for the programmer maybe would be to switch off neutral'S visibility to the AI. the AI cannot shoot at or react to what it is not "aware" of. not the perfect solution, but maybe small enough a fix to consider it for implementation. i assume if Neutrals are so desperately cemanded by military customers, they would already be there. Don't forget, the scope of this sim is very diffrent to that of let's say Flashpoint. I do not expect too many neutral vehciles around when two enemy tank batallions are falling in love with each other.

[shshsh]

a quick "fix" for the programmer maybe would be to switch off neutral'S visibility to the AI. the AI cannot shoot at or react to what it is not "aware" of. not the perfect solution, but maybe small enough a fix to consider it for implementation.

I don't think that would work out very well. The AI has to be very aware of neutrals just to avoid wiping them out with artillery. Neutral casualities would have to result in a score penalty for the side doing the damage. The whole point of having neutrals is to avoid hurting them - to make the scenario more realistic and more complex.

I do not expect too many neutral vehciles around when two enemy tank batallions are falling in love with each other.

Just consider how you would design a Hezbollah vs. IDF scenario. As the Hezbollah leader, you'd get a couple of light vehicles (including a rocket launcher) and a number of infantry squads with lots of RPGs. Their only tactic for survival would be hiding among neutrals to avoid attracting lots of IDF artillery and of course all those tanks smashing right through them.

One other point is having to positively identify friend or foe: Is that bright spot on the thermal imager really an enemy tank, or is it a civilian truck? Is it a squad of enemy soldiers or a couple of refugees on the run? If you can't see noncombatants, you can simply kill everything you see. That's really simple. Too simple for today's combat environments.

[Skybird03]

By making neutrals non-visible for the AI (!) I meant that the AI should not be aware of them being around, that way they would be effectively ghosts, while the player still would see them. Like switching off a collision detection: you drive through the house as if it is not there, but you still see it.

I said it is no perfect solution, but as long as there is no military demand, I am not so sure that we will see neutrals that soon, and so "my" quick fix - if it would work and could by added easily - would be better than nothing. If the AI targets neutrals or not is not so much a concern for me. That I, as the player, am confronted with the callenge of differing neutrals from hostiles - this is what counts for me in the first. Of what concern could it be for me if the AI-controlled OpFor is penalized for killing neutrals, or not? Of none! I do not care for that.

I also do never check the final score tables, btw, it is meaningless and uninteresting for me. I check the animated AAR on the map, and know what I did, and what the consequences were, and next time try to improve that impression by loosing less tanks or killing more hostiles or getting closer to the objective, or whatever. But "600 of 1300" is uninteresting for me. With the same battle, but different formulas, the score would look different, while the battle had the same outcome, the same number of losses and kills. That's why I also do not care to implement scoring to the scenarios that I had put together so far for private use. Currently working on my first serious one. Again, without scoring.

[wingtacticslab]

I have the same problem with our tactics lab and have implimented the following work arounds.

1. Civilian vehicles are represented by reskinned ambulance for both the red and blue side. They are set to blind and thus do not react to opfor vehicles. being ambulances they are not engaged by the AI

2. Opfor and Blue force troops are assigned the same uniform and some are stripped of amunition and set to blind status. They effectivly remove the ability to differentiate enemy by look. You have to use intent.

I still have a problem with OPFOR vehicles shooting up the "civilian" infantry but it seems to work OK if the AI vehicles are set to return fire only. Once the first shot is fired all hell breaks loose and alot of civies are shot up.

That being said it works great for our helo recce trips since most of the vehicles are controlled by human interactors who have to make the decision as to wheter to engage or not.

Capt Boer

[Ssnake]

Smart!
Never thought of that option...