A couple of Arty questions

[THG]

Hi,

Just went through the M1 folder FIST tutorial. This raised a couple of questions:

1. Even when I chose the immediate suppression, the time to splash was the same as FFE.
2. Shouldn't there be a bonus in time to splash when playing a FIST? 2:30 minutes seems quite a long time and is no improvement on the tanks response time.
3. What meaning does the attitude have and how do you guys calculate it?

Anyways, I'm heading off to DL DG's arty tutorials and try them out.

Thanks,
THG

[ShotMagnet]

Sean did quite a nice tutorial for how to use the FIST-V. Try looking in the download section.

As to the attitude question, this refers to the cardinal orientation of the beaten zone when you call for fire. Attitude is expressed and adjusted in mils, 'rotating' the splash as the attitude value is changed.



Shot

[THG]

I ran a search for all of Sean's files, couldn't find any tutorial from 2006, and I assume everything else is SB1 stuff... Anywhere else I can find it?

[Sean]

Maybe he means this: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbgallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4510&g2_GALLERYSID=55c4b6d7e7eaf78b819d53c0f3f01773

Not exactly a tutorial, just a walk through. Some of the options do not do anything yet.

1. Right. No difference - yet.
2. 2:30 doesnt seem long to me. No, there is no bonus for using the FIST.
3. Attitude is the axis that the impact area runs along, in mils. This has been explained to me multiple times, and I never retain it for long. I think they are the same as degrees.

[Froggy]

1 mils is the angle we see 1m at 1000m
there are 6400mils in a circle. (6400mils = 0mils)
So 1600mils = 90°

and, if we talk about azimuth
north = 0mils
East = 1600mils
South = 3200 mils
West = 4800 mils

[GaryOwen]

3. Attitude is the axis that the impact area runs along, in mils. . . I think they are the same as degrees.

A mil is an angular measurement that roughly subtends 1 meter at a 1000 meter distance. In a circle there are 6400 mils or 360 degrees. Thus 180 degrees equals 3200 mils, 90 degrees equals 1600 mils, et cetera.

Where the 6400 number was arrived at in relation to a convenient method of determining distance to objects of known size, the 360 number was, I believe, arrived at in relation to a method of keeping track of time; dividing the belt of the zodiac into small measurements to predict the number of days until certain fixed stars appeared at the zenith or horizon.

[THG]

Thanks for the explanations fellas, and nice video there!

[60bravo]

2:30 minutes may seem like a long time, but in this amount of time feels rather short for the ones providing the fire because a Fire Direction Center has a lot of things to do after a call for fire.

First they have to make the calculations for the guns, order the guns themselves to prepare the right type of shell and fuze and the right charge (yes 155 mm shells are fired from a M109 with a propellant charge, still feels a bit Napeleontic)
If the call for fire is DC (= Danger Close) they will make extra calculations in order to avoid friendly fire.
After all this, the rounds are fired....the flight time is also included in this 2:30 minutes as this is the time to 'splash'....
A green crew will not even make it in 2:30....!

If the call for fire is a socalled Priority Fire, the time to splash should be much shorter because all the things mentioned above have been done in advance because this was a prepared fire mission....

[chrisotto]

For me the difference between suppression and FFE is the way fire is brought down on target.

FFE means a maximum of sustainable, rapid fire (i.e. 120-240 rounds from 2-4 batterys) and immediate displacement (shoot and scoot).

Suppression is keeping fire for some time on target, i.e. 1 round per minute from 2-4 batterys, until the ammo is depleted or counter-battery-fire is detected.

[chrisotto]

Another way to lower response time is to have a battery speed away after a series, race to another firing position and to pre-position and prepare, directing their tubes towards potential targets and wait for the actual target coordinates. With today's navigation and fire control systems, new firing elements (azimuth and elevation) take little time to upload and to redirect the tube towards.

However, in an actual conflict, the fire missions coming in for a battery or battalion sure would be many and prioritizing fire missions might become necessary; therefore I doubt that there would be ample time to just let a battery preposition themselves; furthermore, a prepositioned battery would be vulnerable to air attacks.

[cobrabase]

Shouldn't immediate suppression be.... well.... MORE IMMEDIATE? Like... oh... idano.... 45 seconds? Any chance of seeing this happen?

[chrisotto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYQHcf2eoqo

The reason why it can't be 10 secs.

[60bravo]

When conducting a deliberate attack or when in a prepared defense it is possible to assign specific target area's and make them into Priority Fires; they will a relatively short delivery time from request to splash.....

Whenever the action gets fluid, a swift answer to a call for fire becomes much more difficult and time consuming; the 'old' style artillery could not keep up with the pace of the mordern battlefield so there is a new generation of howitzers in service now...these act much more independent than the old artillery platoon or battery.....the conduct of operations is more like that of the MLRS (Multiple Laucn Rocket System = shoot and scoot) and have a much higher rate of fire; I believe that a Ph2000 can have 5 shells in the air underway in ideal conditions....althought the reaction time may not be that much quicker, the rate of fire surely is...

[chrisotto]

When conducting a deliberate attack or when in a prepared defense it is possible to assign specific target area's and make them into Priority Fires; they will a relatively short delivery time from request to splash.....

Whenever the action gets fluid, a swift answer to a call for fire becomes much more difficult and time consuming; the 'old' style artillery could not keep up with the pace of the mordern battlefield so there is a new generation of howitzers in service now...these act much more independent than the old artillery platoon or battery.....the conduct of operations is more like that of the MLRS (Multiple Laucn Rocket System = shoot and scoot) and have a much higher rate of fire; I believe that a Ph2000 can have 5 shells in the air underway in ideal conditions....althought the reaction time may not be that much quicker, the rate of fire surely is...
... and wears down troops much more, as technology minimises crews. Previously, arty crews on the M109 consisted of 8, now down to 6, meaning the same tasks need to be done by less. Rearming and refueling, previously a task requiring 8 men to load up 28 shots of 155mm HE and diesel in 12 minutes now uses 6 men to load 40 shots in 15min, then rushing out to the fire positions, firing quick fire missions of 5-10 shots in a few minutes, rushing out and repositioning in the same time. Then, one needs to consider that even if the battery has stopped, the battery takes up a protective stance with 360° of 3D protection; in lying-up positions, the battery requires protection, reconnaisance, cleaning and repairs.

[60bravo]

... and wears down troops much more, as technology minimises crews. Previously, arty crews on the M109 consisted of 8, now down to 6, meaning the same tasks need to be done by less. Rearming and refueling, previously a task requiring 8 men to load up 28 shots of 155mm HE and diesel in 12 minutes now uses 6 men to load 40 shots in 15min, then rushing out to the fire positions, firing quick fire missions of 5-10 shots in a few minutes, rushing out and repositioning in the same time. Then, one needs to consider that even if the battery has stopped, the battery takes up a protective stance with 360° of 3D protection; in lying-up positions, the battery requires protection, reconnaisance, cleaning and repairs.
__________________
.

this is very true indeed; they don't mention it when recruiting arty personnel.....:)

I was referring to the Panzerhaubitze 2000 when describing the new doctrine.........the non-upgraded M109 is definitely not suited for this fast-paced task; which is fully understandable when you consider the first one was manufactured in 1962....
Those were also the days that personnel came cheap because there was conscription ...(at least over here)

[chrisotto]

Nope, just all the fun and excitement and tradition. Well, few other arms get an official partying day, St. Barbara's.

Do you Dutch have the PzHb2000 already? Is it that good, compared to the older systems?

We upgraded the M109 with a L47 tube and dumped our own inertial navigation systems, fire suppression, and comms gear as well as adding some improvements for crew comforts, mainly trays for rounds, a powerful semi-auto loader and a crane - the insurance policy of the army forbids us to lift any load heavier than 25kgs.

[60bravo]

Nope, just all the fun and excitement and tradition. Well, few other arms get an official partying day, St. Barbara's.

Do you Dutch have the PzHb2000 already? Is it that good, compared to the older systems?

We upgraded the M109 with a L47 tube and dumped our own inertial navigation systems, fire suppression, and comms gear as well as adding some improvements for crew comforts, mainly trays for rounds, a powerful semi-auto loader and a crane - the insurance policy of the army forbids us to lift any load heavier than 25kgs.

I don't know if it is already operational, but they did order the PH 2000....the first reactions I heard were raving!
As I have left the service a couple of years ago I am not exactly up-to-date with the state of affairs....
And those restrictions being brought upon the loaders by insurance/law.....
Co: loader: He, proximity fuze, propellant 3 Mike 4
Loader No!
Co: Why not?
Loader:Because I already loaded 8 rounds this hour.....come back in 20 minutes and I'll comply.......
Co: Wtf?
Loader: New guidelines Sir, no no more than 8 rounds sper hour and a 5 minute coffee break every hour! See ya!