View Full Version : M1 Questions that have been bugging me...
Stewy
10-07-2006, 07:54 AM
G'day guys,
Just a couple of really dumb questions that I've wondered about for a while...
I've borrowed Fabfire's excellent M1 tex for reference...hope you don't mind mate ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Stewy44/M1A1-woodland-v3.jpg
1. What are the square plates on the front turret armour? What do they say in the middle? and why are they not painted over (even on RL M1s)
2. What's the little box on each side of the hull for?
Thanks fellas, if answering is a breach of Opsec - then please don't worry about it ;)
Ssnake
10-07-2006, 09:29 AM
The "armour plates" are velcro patches to mount Combat Identification Panels (CIP) which are thermal mirrors of "venetian blind" style - they are supposed to create a distinct cold spot in the thermal signature when mounted. This cold spot is supposed to work as a reminder that it might be a friendly unit, to reinforce proper target identification procedures.
The other box... probably for some equipment that you need in the vicinity.
Stewy
10-07-2006, 09:56 AM
WOW - and here's me thinking that it was some sort of 'addon' armour on the front...gee I sure feel silly now! ;)
Thanks Sir :)
RogueSnake79
10-07-2006, 10:08 AM
The small boxes on either side of the turrent are for smoke grenades.
Trekker
10-07-2006, 12:45 PM
The small boxes on either side of the turrent are for smoke grenades.
What exactly do these boxes do?
KevoM1
10-07-2006, 12:48 PM
The box holds "smokes" so the crew can have fresh smokes after a tough battle. The container on the back of the turret holds the "cold beer".
Zipuli
10-07-2006, 01:02 PM
Seems like I joined the wrong army, KevoM1! :P
Zip
G'day guys,
Just a couple of really dumb questions that I've wondered about for a while...
I've borrowed Fabfire's excellent M1 tex for reference...hope you don't mind mate ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Stewy44/M1A1-woodland-v3.jpg
1. What are the square plates on the front turret armour? What do they say in the middle? and why are they not painted over (even on RL M1s)
2. What's the little box on each side of the hull for?
Thanks fellas, if answering is a breach of Opsec - then please don't worry about it ;)
Contrary to popular belief, other than the exact makeup of the armor (In general terms even this is already public information), its exact capabilities; some of our ordinance exact capabilities, stockpiles available; and the MCD, not much is secret on an M1.
People can come and crawl all over them, you can take pictures, we let exchange students drive and shoot them at Fort Knox.... hell, we even let Russian troops visiting in Germany crawl all over them and do gunnery!
A lot of this “I can't tell you” is BS. Maybe some just error on the side of caution to avoid any trouble; but not much on an M1 is secret anymore. 26 years ago it would have been a punishable offense to let non-authorized people look through the sights, disclose gunnery table information, or even mention the existence of an MCD when it first came out with the A1, and several years later when it was used in Desert Storm. Today, all this is old already and known.
Loosing an ANCD with a fill is a big security breach, letting kids run all over our tanks is not.
What’s the point? Ask away.
3Star
10-23-2006, 04:29 AM
The "armour plates" are velcro patches to mount Combat Identification Panels (CIP) which are thermal mirrors of "venetian blind" style - they are supposed to create a distinct cold spot in the thermal signature when mounted. This cold spot is supposed to work as a reminder that it might be a friendly unit, to reinforce proper target identification procedures.
The other box... probably for some equipment that you need in the vicinity.
They actually -are- the CI Panels. I don't know why they have the louvred type on the sides and rear, and a flat one on the front, but that's the way it is. One of the thermal images in the slideshow shows the 'black hole' effect of them.
The smoke grenade boxes not only hold the reloads, they're also a great place to stencil the crew names. TC and Gunner go on the right one, Driver and loader on the left.
NTM
Wahrborg
10-23-2006, 05:26 AM
This makes me wonder; is there any kind of camofluage system that are composed of this black plates?
Ssnake
10-23-2006, 08:40 AM
They actually -are- the CI Panels.
The ones that were demonstrated to me in Friedberg were of "venetian blind" style (surfaces arranged in a zig-zag manner like a folding bag), not flat. Are you sure?
RomeoNovember12
10-23-2006, 10:24 AM
Yes the panels on the turret front are CIPs. Thing is, the panels must be facing slightly skywards, so that's why the panels can be made flat on the angled turret armour of the M1 or Challenger. The "venetian blinds" are a must for the vertical surfaces of the sides and rears of vehicles.
There's some sort of special tape on the panels that make them look cold. I've been told that they: "Reflect the ambient coolness of the sky." which is something I don't really understand. But, they work!
Ssnake
10-23-2006, 05:50 PM
Imagine the sky was clear and blue all the time, and you wanted to create a blue spot on vehicles as a recognition element. You could mount a mirror tilding upwards to reflect the blue light of the sky.
Now, CIPs are coated with a material that works as a mirror for thermal radiation. In thermal radiation, the sky usually appears black (=cold), so that's what the CIPs do. They are nothing but mirrors for thermal radiation.
MAJ_Fubar
10-24-2006, 12:25 AM
:rolleyes:
The smoke grenade boxes not only hold the reloads, they're also a great place to stencil the crew names. TC and Gunner go on the right one, Driver and loader on the left.
NTM
Also a good place to keep your bee...er, Cokes...yeah, Cokes...:rolleyes:
The ones that were demonstrated to me in Friedberg were of "venetian blind" style (surfaces arranged in a zig-zag manner like a folding bag), not flat. Are you sure?
The ones you saw in Friedberg change in appearance depending on how we put them in. That way the bad guys if they want to 'fool us' have to know whether to be hot or cold that day.
Changing the orientation changes how they appear through your thermals.
But you’re just going to have to take my word on that. :)
Imagine the sky was clear and blue all the time, and you wanted to create a blue spot on vehicles as a recognition element. You could mount a mirror tilding upwards to reflect the blue light of the sky.
Now, CIPs are coated with a material that works as a mirror for thermal radiation. In thermal radiation, the sky usually appears black (=cold), so that's what the CIPs do. They are nothing but mirrors for thermal radiation.
Straight CIP is old. The louvered ones are newer, but still old. The newest system is the BCIS. But I have yet to see this on a tank. I know they have been doing tests and there were some trial runs in some units, but it is unclear if, and in what quantities, this system today is ready. Of course a true electronic IFF with an interrogator would be the ideal answer which BCIS is.
Hedgehog
10-27-2006, 02:18 PM
One reason why the forward CIP panels are just a flat piece is that they are most likely destroyed in each engagement, being as they are mounted on the front of the turret.
Therefore it makes sense to keep them as simple as possible.
I also have a question, what is the protrusion over the Main Gun, mounted at the top of the mantlet?
Is it a redundent bracket for a searchlight designed before the advent of TIS?
3Star
10-27-2006, 02:25 PM
Well, not before advent of TIS, but yes, it is. You can also mount the external co-ax .50 cal on it.
NTM
Hedgehog
10-27-2006, 02:34 PM
Ohhh, 50.cal with fire control the Israelis do that don't they?
Thats a point, with all these new urban tactics are they going to retro fit 50s as a coax?
I remember reading a book on Cheiftain, back when it had the RMG, when they upgraded to the TLS, they removed the redundent 50, which some saw as a bit silly as it was the ideal softskin/ light armour killer.
I know i'm being pedantic but isn't a fifty a better coax choice?
DrDevice
10-27-2006, 02:59 PM
Depends on what you want your co-ax to do.
A 7.62 provides accurate anti-personnel fire over a good useful range (out to 1000-1200m) and has a lot of endurance. It can keep up the fire and keep the baddies heads down. It's high ROF also makes hitting fleeting targets pretty easy.
A .50 has a lot more range and punch, but lots less ammo. So it's not as good at suppression of troops, but you can literally shoot through stuff to get to the baddies. In the urban fight, it's a great weapon for limited behind-the-wall engagements (Ones where a 7.62 falls short, but you don't want to use the 120mm) where collateral damage is undesirable.
So each has its advantages. It's really about what the operating country feels the tank's overall armament should be.
To me, I'd have a main gun, a .50 co-ax and assign the "tough targets" to the gunner. The loader could have an under-armor 40mm, for explosive suppression and area effects, and the TC would have the suppressive 7.62. Or, you could integrate the 40/7.62 into a single weapons station that the loader or TC could operate as needed. The "mini-turret" used to address soft threats like unarmored vehicles and personnel.
There's all kinds of pros and cons and design issues with this "dream" setup, I'm sure, but that would cover a wide range of situations, in my book.
Hedgehog
10-27-2006, 03:24 PM
So something like a CROWS station or something with a bit more armour, like the Amtrac turret?
And what do you feel abount gattling guns? Would they eat ammo too quickly?
They actually -are- the CI Panels. I don't know why they have the louvred type on the sides and rear, and a flat one on the front, but that's the way it is. One of the thermal images in the slideshow shows the 'black hole' effect of them.
The smoke grenade boxes not only hold the reloads, they're also a great place to stencil the crew names. TC and Gunner go on the right one, Driver and loader on the left.
NTM
The "armour plates" are velcro patches to mount Combat Identification Panels (CIP) which are thermal mirrors of "venetian blind" style - they are supposed to create a distinct cold spot in the thermal signature when mounted. This cold spot is supposed to work as a reminder that it might be a friendly unit, to reinforce proper target identification procedures.
The other box... probably for some equipment that you need in the vicinity.
That Velcro On the Front Slope of the Turet is For Miles Gear and it is on the Sides of the Tank too . The Combat Identification Panels (CIP) are Bolted To the Bussel Rack One in the Back and one in the Middle on each Side!
:men_ani: This is All I Have Ever put on the front of My M1a1 :biggrin:
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