Planning missions before battle

[stalintc]

Hi guys,

Ive finally got to a point where im happy controlling the tanks in a reasonoble manner, I have attempted a few missions one of which was a great success. But the only problem is im spending alot of time in the map screen juggling units around and trying to co-ordinate units.

I noticed from some further reading and tooling around in the pre-mission map planner the embark on and retreat on commands. which from my own basic testing appears to be quite useful.

I cant find a decent explaination of the variables that appear in the embark\retreat dialogue window anywhere :( I realise most are pretty self explanatary, but I would love to know what to expect from each of those variables.

Also to be honest with you im having trouble overall planning an entire mission from beginning to end, both because of a lack of understanding of the commands and im still working out how to use and apply all of the tools available to me to get the desired results. I have read the manual which has given me a basic understanding, but I need a little more detail. Is there anywhere I can get a document with a full description or at least partial description of the planning section?

Also if you would like to share any advice for running and commanding a mission please do, I need all the advice I can get at the moment! Please feel free to share with me how you do it and what works best for you. It might help a few other newer members get a good idea in the process too.

Thanks for any input you can provide. :biggrin:

Cheers

[Jester_UK]

Re: The route and waypoint properties, read through chapter 8 (starts on pg 23) of the manual. Take your time going through it, it seems fairly complex to start with but it covers everything you need to know.

I know what you mean about spending a lot of time in map view, but it's unavoidable if you have a large force under your command. The only way to minimise this is to spend plenty of time planning out your attack in the planning phase, and even then if things don't go the way you expect, you'll have to revert to the map view on a frequent basis.

[stalintc]

Hi Jester,

Thanks for replying!

I will have a read through that section again, perhaps I was a little too hasty whilst reading through (excitment is to blame ;) ) cheers!

Well im glad im not the only one who finds he has to sit in the map view alot hehe. What would be handy on that point is if you could manipulate the map whilst in a pause ( if there is a way please tell me! ) that way I could set plenty of units with adjusted routes that are still synchronised with each other, insted of the units heading off the moment I give them a new route and having to scramble to get the other orders in.

To some manipulating the map and giving orders to multiple units might seem like a *cheat* to some. But I would see it as a handy feature when handling the larger forces if it were in place. Plus I could spend more realtime in my tank worrying about commanding and gunning it.

[HotTom]

The trick (at least my trick) is to keep your span of control small. If you're trying to micromanage a whole battalion or even a company, you will never get your face out of the map and into the tank.

The (US and I suspect most others) military and most management schools teach that (roughly) five is the largest number of people anyone should supervise. Three is optimal.

This sim allows you to be a platoon leader. Three or four tanks depending on your country. That's it. And that's perfect.

If you're designing a mission, you can give companies and above their OP ORD (set their routes on the map) before the mission. But, really, you can't supervise them once they cross the LD without spending the whole mission staring at the map.

I know you're a fellow F4AF pilot (anyone who has the patience to ramp start an F-16 every mission probably has a different world view than I do :) But I gather you, like myself, appreciate the sim aspect and the gaming is secondary). Still the best military flight sim ever.

Look at SB the same way: The only thing you can control DURING the mission is the four aircraft in your flight (or the three or four tanks in your platoon).

I'm still experimenting with mission building and learning a lot, but I quickly came to the conclusion that the guys who designed F4AF (and the military in general) were correct: You can have a whole war going on around you, but while you're flying (or leading your tank platoon), three or four is all you can handle. Let the AI take care of the rest.

If you check out most of my missions, it appears there is a big battle going on (and there is) but the only option I give you is to jump in a platoon leader's tank (or an individual tank). Beyond that level, you can't tell your subordinate commanders where to go without making it a map exercise. That's fine if you like playing board games but it sort of wastes the while simulation IMHO.

Again, like F4AF, my missions are completely scripted. BUT, like F4AF, you can change your flight's (tank platoon's) route, load-out, tactics, etc. if you think you can do it better or just want to experiment. The biggest difference is that in SB you're kinda stuck with the altitude they give you: NOE is your only choice :)

Point One comes down to this: KISS. This is a sim for lieutenants and, maybe, captains, not for colonels (I've been all of those and the real fun is at the lower levels leading troops).

I don't know your military background but if you don't have training and experience in tactics (tanks and infantry are basically the same except one is out in a field and the other is in the woods), take the time to read the Field Manuals that come with the sim and learn how they do it for real. The Tank Platoon is probably a good place to start. This sim really works best when you use real doctrine.

Point Two comes down to this: RTFM :) And for those of us who grew up with Vietnam and the Cold War, better go back and read the new manuals. Much has changed!

Glad SB finally arrived for you!

HT

[Sockeye]

One of the Army field manuals that has helped me alot in planning is FM 3-90, I believe called "Tactics". That, and "Tank Platoon" is listed at this link along with a whole lotta others:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/index.html

Something I've been doing alot of lately is using the custom line and region tools to create my own Phase Lines, Engagement Areas, identifying sites with excellent LOS (for both us and the bad dudes), etc etc, during the Planning Phase (if they haven't been placed by the mission builder). As well, I like to write down my own little OPORD, where I spend quite a bit of time detailing the Execution phase before putting any waypoints on the map; this comes in handy if I have to come back to it at some later point. Sometimes I'll take screenshots of the map, and mark it up with simple "route arrows" in Painthsop so that I can see how the plan looks before getting deep into SB planning and dealing with the route for each unit and setting up the triggers. Doing that allows me to see how it looks; i.e, does it resemble what I had in mind; also, I can see if there are any gaps or problem areas that maybe went unnoticed before.

Basically in my case, writing out what I plan to do, and then seeing it on the map before it happens, helps me state and visualize what I plan to execute.

But that's my two cents :)

[Los]

If you look at your mission and what you think mostly likely will be your courses of action you can desigate the routes but then control them with triggers ties to "embark if" that would simulate using radio calls. This helps cut down on micomaganing all these way point right when the hits the fan or in having the whole force move out on it's own hell be damned of events on the ground. This gives you periods of time when youc an just be Joe tank commander or gunner and periods of time when you are overall force commander.

An example.

Say you want to do a company movement to contact or even an attack. Maybe your favorite part is doing the screening and scouting up to the OBJ. SO you can set routes for the whole conmapny or even multiple routes based on whether you think this way or that way is clear or the best route. You will find that out dring your recon. You can make two triggers called for example Use AA Alpha or Use AA Bravo that will also send a radio message. Then you take the units hanging back and map the routes for the atatck to one ro more support by fire positions and assault positions. The trigger you use will call them forward on the route you select.

So the misison starts and you move out with your your M3 platoon (M2 actually) scouting the routes and verifying what COA to use. You cna do a little fighting along the way too. Then when you call them forward on the radio having seen the exact situation you find your self a little secure spot, then hit F5 and you can go in there and modify the SBF position so each unit waypoint ends in a good overwatch spot based on the actual situation. Likewise as your company is coming forward you have the time to create assault routes from the attack position to the objective that should do the trick AND you can do your call for fires.

Now on the final assault you can jump into this or that unit to add your personal influence in the end fight.

All this time you are expereincing moments of simming (fighting) and then other moments orf wargame (commanding from the map). It gives you the time to give orders and make some routes without getting overwhelmed because you have thought through the whole thing up front. But neither were you forced to slavishly map out every little detail right up to the OBJ before the mission starts, only to sunbject yourself to everything giong wrong at once.

Just a technique.

[stalintc]

Wow the person who told me you guys in this forum are a wealth of information and help was right, the link and the descriptions of the way you guys do things is really helpful, thank you very much for posting that. At least now I have a little more basis on how I should be going about things, to make it easier on me.

Over the next few trial missions I will take all you have said into account, and hopefully I can get somewhere.

Because at the end of the day I just want to have command over my little platoon and play my little part in the scenario, much like what Tom pointed out from F4AF that we both have experience from. Although I do enjoy some aspects of commanding the overall force, and would hate for that feature to not be there, but I would like to have the overall ratio of my time spent in the platoon and looking after the sim aspect of SB.

I mentioned earlier a freeze function to control the map whilst time is frozen and then unfreeze to continue the sim from the tank point of view, does anyone have an opinion on that?

Tom - My military background is tiny, I only ever joined the Air Cadets and then tried to become a fighter pilot, but I didnt get there, im just an IT Engineer. But I do like everything military, you would be hard pushed to find anything in my software collection that isnt!

I totally agree with you on F4AF, and yes every single mission I will perform a full ramp start and perform all check etc. I LOVE simming!

I am of course from that respect also only used to handling a 2 or 4 ship formation and adapting to the situation that unfolds around me, its much harder to do that when your trying to baby sit everyone elses backside too!

I think RTFM does sum it up for me, I did loads of reading while waiting for the sim to arrive, but it appears I have MUCH to do!!

I think overall I need to do alot more experimenting with what way works best for me, your inputs are invaluble and I thank you for taking the time to write what you all have. Any more info, or anyone else who wants to chime in feel free, the more info I have the faster I will learn!! I hope to get online with you guys too at some point!

Also I hope im not coming across as an idiot, I am doing my best to learn :biggrin:

But with all that said, from what ive managed to do so far in SB I know ive only scratched the surface. Like F4AF I would not swap this for the world, this is a true sim.

[Los]

Imagine getting F4AF to interface w/ Steel beasts. (and while were' at it graft the infantry control options from combat mission on there)....

:shocked:

Los

[stalintc]

Imagine getting F4AF to interface w/ Steel beasts. (and while were' at it graft the infantry control options from combat mission on there)....

:shocked:

Los

The stuff of dreams! dont teast lol

If only it wouldnt require a huge room stuffed full with computer equipment to even run it!

[stalintc]

Well guys I think im getting somewhere, I managed to plot out 3/4 of a mission and it ran successfully, apart from the bridge layers which I can only seem to work out how to do manually!!

Still pretty basic stuff at the moment im not using multiple\tree routes (no pun intended :) ) just yet, but ive got "unit is at waypoint" and "unit is taking direct fire" I was thankfully able to look after my own tank platoon I had chosen. But of course checking to see how units behaved to my route conditions I had set!

Here are some screenshots of the fun.

[BRGillespie]

Some general tips I can offer:

- Conduct overwatch of your units before having them bound. One unit sits in an overwatch position while another bounds forward to a good OP. Repeat.

- Hammer the shit out of the objective with artillery, but try to shape the battlefield when you do it. Random incoming will spread RedFor out, but sometimes that's become a headache for me later in the mission. Definitely hit blind spots, and trying to herd units out of places you'd rather not be engaged from.

- Stick and move. Sitting still enables opposing units to fix and manuever upon your position. Getting flanked is bad.

- Conversely, try to flank THEM. Set up a hasty support-by-fire, then see if you can sweep some units to their flank. (Of course, sometimes that doesn't work and the flanking units get killed... oh, well. Casualties of war. ;P)

[stalintc]

Good tips :) not too different style tactics than from Steel Panthers or Combat Mission, except this is now realtime :O

Thank buddy, a few more for me to hammer at over the next few days!