what about Night ops

[oscar19681]

As you all know on top of my list is suspension(whehe) But what about night ops . i know the devs say its hard enought as it is in daytime . But isnt that what this software is all about? I hope to see night ops in a patcht onbe day

[RecceDG]

Wear sunglasses.

DG

[DrDevice]

You really gotta catch up on some forum reading, there oscar. There are numerous threads relating the status/plans for night operations. Search is your friend.

Synopsis:
Yes, they'd like to do them.
No, it won't be "soon."
No, it's not as easy as just making everything black. There are a LOT of factors that make night/limited visibility combat more complicated than that.

[oscar19681]

I did a search for night . and night operation in posts adn threads search . Nothing there about any night operations.

[oscar19681]

i also wonder if they implement night ops what they are gonna do with the drivers posistion . If they implement night enhancers instead of the thermals view used in the gunners seat.

[Jester_UK]

I did a search for night . and night operation in posts adn threads search . Nothing there about any night operations.


Well you didn't search very hard. "Night" or "Night operations" bring up 500 hits using the search engine. Taking a minute to browse the returned links I came up with this:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=7407&highlight=night+operations

[oscar19681]

I dont mean the night time mod . Its got issues and the grass textures look ugly in the moonlight .

[koga]

i use the "search" button but i sometimes get undesired results lol

[Ssnake]

In short, it's essential for a future game version (aka SB2), but not for a training tool like Steel Beasts since most procedures are the same at night, but easier to learn and understand under daylight conditions. Therefore it is not of top priority at this point. Our army customers aren't screaming for it either, which probably justifies my assertion of the low priority.

[Charlie]

We'd also need some eye candy enhancements such as fires that illuminates, purdy tracers, virtual masking tape to cover all the displays in the Leo2A4, graphics blurring to simulate tiredness, imaginary ghouls and goblins that can spook the sentries and vehicle headlights.

Then there are the less important stuff such as NVGs, IR search lights, illuminination rounds not to mention all the code that goes into making units use all that stuff in a correct way.

I'm sure looking forward to it though....

-C-

[BRGillespie]

Suspension... night operations...

I'd rather have the devs concentrate on accurately portraying the physics of the weapon systems and work out the existing bugs before moving onto superfluous suspension systems and night operations. Night ops suck in real-life, anyway. Just use the mission editor to cut down visibility to 500m and turn your monitor's brightness down. Bam. Night ops.

I mean, if you want superfluous things, then let's add visual representations of your crew getting out to work on the track you just threw by pivot-steering in loose soil! Or your BC tapping his CVC with a finger because the comm system just randomly took a shit. Or your can use that suspension system to accurately portray your tank coasting to a stop because your electrical system just crapped out on you for no reason at all.

;P

[HotTom]

Jerry Asher regarding ops on the first night of the Yom Kippur War in "Duel for the Golan:

"Tankers, by nature a paranoid lot, are doubly so by night."

A guess five years of research for the book taught him something :)

I've never seen night operations simulated well in any sim. The thing that needs simulating is the inability to see infantry lugging those RPGs in the dark. The night is their friend in fighting tanks.

HT

HT

[BRGillespie]

The only game I've seen that had a decent representation as to what its like to look through night-vision goggles was the original Ghost Recon and its expansion packs. Green, grainy, hard-to-see, and tunnel vision.

[Vati]

I'd rather have the devs concentrate on accurately portraying the physics of the weapon systems and work out the existing bugs before moving onto superfluous suspension systems
And what do you think suspension includes? Just eyecandy?
Even if it was only grfx eyecandy, it would enhance immersion due elimination of skating vehicles. If that is not realism enhancement then call me papa.
This reminds me of one time where a guy who never was on tank tried to convince me how it really feels riding a tank... "like a boat on a calmly water"..

Same goes with shadows... cant count anymore how many times I lost feeling for depth when looking at other vehicle skating across the inclined terrain in SBP. It's like watching South Park animators at work..

However do not get me wrong. I am not saying what you have said is not important. Not at all... add real tracers shape to the list as well. It's kind of lame now trying to figure out who is playing tennis. The Murphy's law of Combat: "Tracers work both ways" aint true in SBP.

Ok, ok, I will stop now... :thelmut:

[Ssnake]

Things that I would consider essential in a simulation of night combat are listed below. Many of these issues go beyond visual stuff, and even the visuals could exceed the capabilities of even the best graphics cards that are currently available: Casting of dynamic, long shadows, using several point sources for light that may be partially overlapping.
The analytically correct volume shadow casting definitely is No Go. The Doom³ engine does it, but it works only for fast DirectX 9 graphics cards, with a single light source, and inside of rather small rooms. Disorienting light/shadow effects of drifting illumination rounds Computer-controlled units must not follow scripted routes without the chance of failed navigation. Right now they can drive at top speed in 10m visibility conditions and never miss their waypoints.
Instead, there should be a chance that they are in a different spot than they think they are. Full visibility range (4km+) for light sources. At the same time, very limited visibility for the immediate surroundings. Distorted (size increased) shapes for silhouetted objects, especially bushes and trees, to make it difficult to estimate ranges. Reduced image resolution near the center of view. Processes to modify human eye adaptation to darkness conditions, and blinding/after-image effects of exposure to strong light Rendering in greyscale for naked eye vision, but with color overlay for nearby light sources (e.g. burning vehicles, light traps, signal gun lights) Implementation of various night vision gear (1st, 2nd, 3rd generation image intensifiers) Development of doctrine for searchlight employment for computer-controlled vehicles Development of behavioral routines for battlefield illumination upon suspected enemy presence Possible tactics (& their implementation) to defeat certain night vision equipment to (partially) negate technological inferiority - to be employed reasonably intelligently by computer-controlled units where applicable

These are the issues that I think we must address for a proper implementation of night combat. It is a very ambitious wish list. Without at least a significant portion of these elements I would not consider any implementation as satisfactory. It may be sufficient for eye candy purposes but would give an incorrect representation of the nature of night combat. It would be unsuitable for constructive simulation purposes, and not very instructive or even misleading in the virtual simulation role either. Therefore the instructional value would be limited.

At the same time we cannot simply render the screen dark. More than 80% of the sensorial information that is given to the player to make his decisions are presented through the screen. Denying the player this vital feedback renders the whole simulation useless.


Finding a good compromise will be tricky.

[Stewy]

that's quite a list mate - will that be going into the "long way away / probably never basket" on your desk?

Not meaning to be insulting Sir! More so just curious :)

Instead, there should be a chance that they are in a different spot than they think they are.
Sounds like most of my time in the Reserve Infantry ;)

[Retro]

IL2 / Forgotten Battles added night combat elements (well, searchlights and "campfire" objects to help the player find his home runway).

What seemed to be a fine idea in theory turned out (at least to me) to be pretty impractical in practice.. if only because you'd have to sit in a darkroom yourself to make out any details on the black screen.. just look how much you can make out on these screenshots..

http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/He-111_at%20night_small.jpg (http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/He-111_at%20night.jpg)
http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/Search%20Lights19_small.jpg (http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/Search%20Lights19.jpg)
http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/light_small.jpg (http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/light.jpg)
http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/light2_small.jpg (http://games.1c.ru/il2/fb/screenshots/light2.jpg)

[Vati]

Finding a good compromise will be tricky.
Indeed, so I really hope we will see bad weather before night ops :)
There is some basic quasi-fog, I know, however a lot is still missing in regards to x-country driving and sensors/visual degradation.

[Ssnake]

IL2 / Forgotten Battles added night combat elements (well, searchlights and "campfire" objects to help the player find his home runway).

What seemed to be a fine idea in theory turned out (at least to me) to be pretty impractical in practice.. if only because you'd have to sit in a darkroom yourself to make out any details on the black screen..

My point exactly. If we make the whole scenery so dark that everybody will crank up the bightness and contrast levels of the monitor and start fiddling with the Gamma settings, something has gone wrong. It should work "out of the box" - be a bit more difficult and trying to recreate the atmosphere, but not to the point that it functionality is lost in an attempt to make things look like a dark night.

[Ssnake]

Indeed, so I really hope we will see bad weather before night ops :)

Most likely.

[TankHunter]

Wondering, if you guys do weather, would it be possible to attach conditions to it (such as bad weather will happen after X amount of time) or have regions of bad weather (such as a storm is happening 10 K away, but where you are it isn’t raining or it is instead drizzling)?

[Ssnake]

I expect time variability, but I'm not sure about the spatial resolution. It probably makes sense especially for scenarios with large maps; we just have to see if it can be made to work without too many complications.