Computer Fire Control

[Captain_Colossus]

Specifically- riflemen display uncanny feats of marksmanship seemingly out to their maximum range; I'm testing a scenario that won't execute according to conception simply because a few squads are spoiling my airborne assault: they are shooting down helicopters at will, seemingly ignoring any flight altitude and speed.

The kill shot seems consistently scored on this area:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2050/ss230506ly8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In general the infantry units make mincemeat out of each other at the edge of some pretty extreme ranges- I wonder if their automatic weapons should have more of a suppressive effect rather than knocking each other out at all but close range.

[Kingtiger]

Put the infantry to fire only at XXX range, that should solve it.

[Captain_Colossus]

They don't always obey orders such as "hold fire until"- they may either go into panic mode and fire anyway, or there is something in their behavior which overrides the order. I've seen it- I'm afraid I can't post a pic to support my claim, since this is something that needs to be seen in action. Besides, it's not necessarily desireable to hold fire as a workaround under the circumstances.

[Ssnake]

Did I menation that I learned in "Air warfare" that more than 60% of all helicopter losses in Vietnam were the results of small arms fire?

Not trying to imply that the current model is perfect, but it's primarily the HINDs' bellies and canopy that are well armored. I concede that helicopters have a lot of built-in redundancy which could result in them surviving more damage than they currently do. I'll see if I can adapt the damage likelihoods of components in this vicinity...

[Captain_Colossus]

Did I menation that I learned in "Air warfare" that more than 60% of all helicopter losses in Vietnam were the results of small arms fire?



That may as well be true but it is a broad statistic over the course of a major military committment spanning more than a decade; The counter-point holds up demonstrating comparatively small units operating in Iraq with few losses whilst here in SB 100% losses to a few squads can be maddengly difficult to avoid. I can have 6- 12 troops account for 6 out of 8 helos with at least fair expectations, not including any other ground unit delivering the coup de grace. The mitigating effect is high altitude and setting them blind so they don't actually attempt to hover and engage. As soon as that happens, it's over.

I'm not propounding the notion that helicopters should not be brought down with hits to critical areas- but that's symptomatic which happens to correlate with the sharp accuracy of the gunners. I believe their marksmanship deserves the better look.

[Ssnake]

How many of your helicopters were shot down when you had them flying at 300m altitude?
;)

[Captain_Colossus]

The last time I tried- 2 out of 8. Two more lost to Leopards. If I recall, the infantry units which scored on them weren't in the same grid square as the Hinds- it looked like a pretty good distance. Setting the Hinds to blind helps at least as much as high altitude: it prevents them from swinging around and fighting back. Once they attempt that, they slow down and come down a bit, which is suicide.

The problem is getting them coming in to 'land' though- they tend to get waxed at that stage. I'm not so much interested in their fighting capabilities in my scenario as their transport capability. I want to land units to secure bridges as a sort of dilemma- should the player ignore them, Red can use them to get access to the player. If the player attempt to fight for the bridges, he is side-tracked from Red's main effort.

I know you'll do the right thing. ;)

[RecceDG]

FWIW, at a SIMNET ex in Knox, a peeved instructor (long story) tried punishing me for... something.. by sending a wave of HINDS at my Bradley troop.

We shot down every one in a matter of seconds.

Subject to the limits of the level of realism in the SIMNET HIND model of course, but my impression is that any helicopter who attempts to go toe to toe with a modern AFV who knows he is there is liable to wind up getting the short end of that stick.

DG

[ShotMagnet]

The problem is getting them coming in to 'land' though- they tend to get waxed at that stage. Options abound in a welter of springtime happiness.

You can control the behavior of interdicting troops by diddling with their status, setting such to 'Return fire only', or even better, 'Blind'. You can go one better by putting potential interdictors under 'Spawn if..' condition(s), instantiating and tweaking the condition(s) that will spawn potential chopper-killers such that your deploying forces have at least a fighting chance to do so before their rides are chopped.

You can alter the ammo of the troops, arming them with nothing but 5.56mm ammo. This affects the range at which potential interdictors open fire, and what damage they might do when they open fire.

Putting the choppers themselves under 'Spawn if...' conditions might help as well, spawning the choppers such that they appear either in, or as they are about to enter the LZ in question. Used in thoughtful concert with the aforementioned suggestions, your Hinds should last at least long enough to land their squads.


Shot

[charlie_zero_five]

I would concur that the Hind is getting shot down too easy.

I think it is not so much a nerf to the IN required, but a boost in the Hind target aquisition. These copters can "see" IN in the woods at about 2km, but doesnt engage. I can't find the range for the 12.7mm gatling it has but it's prolly at least 2km. The Hind only seems to engage IN when its being shot at by IN, even though it can see it a ways out, and has better standoff and weapon with better standoff.

Also, The Hind-D has all AT weapons (not really suprising for the game hehe), but maybe give the option of loading up 16 or 32 30mm HEAT rounds to simulate those big FFAR pods?

I did some testing with a typical HIND/HIP combo (used the Canadian Huey as the Hip). With the Hip Spotting, and the Hind engaging, vs a IN PLT with 7.62 and 5.56 weapons. The Hind got shot down 10/10 times and inflicted only a few casualties, and only engaged within 1km, while it spotted the IN out to 3 km.

Could be also, that the 12.7mm gun in the game is the standard 12.7mm single barrel, and maybe would require modelling a complete new weapon option of the 4-barrel 12.7mm specific to the HIND.

[Vati]

Did I menation that I learned in "Air warfare" that more than 60% of all helicopter losses in Vietnam were the results of small arms fire?
I am sure you were also informed that the majority of those 60% happened while performing insertion/extraction in LZ.
This is important data when presenting your vulnerability argument above as it shapes the correct information.

[Captain_Colossus]

FWIW, at a SIMNET ex in Knox, a peeved instructor (long story) tried punishing me for... something.. by sending a wave of HINDS at my Bradley troop.

We shot down every one in a matter of seconds.

Subject to the limits of the level of realism in the SIMNET HIND model of course, but my impression is that any helicopter who attempts to go toe to toe with a modern AFV who knows he is there is liable to wind up getting the short end of that stick.

DG

Ok, but- Soviet airborne elements in Afghanistan were known to punish the Mujahideen where the armor columns were getting slaughtered in mountain passes. Hind helicopters picked up the miserable tempo and were relied upon to turn the tide in a dirty little war- everyone is unanimous about that. The heavy anti-aircraft machine guns and Stinger missiles construed the major threat, certainly not infantry rifles.

[Captain_Colossus]

Options abound in a welter of springtime happiness.

You can control the behavior of interdicting troops by diddling with their status, setting such to 'Return fire only', or even better, 'Blind'. You can go one better by putting potential interdictors under 'Spawn if..' condition(s), instantiating and tweaking the condition(s) that will spawn potential chopper-killers such that your deploying forces have at least a fighting chance to do so before their rides are chopped.

You can alter the ammo of the troops, arming them with nothing but 5.56mm ammo. This affects the range at which potential interdictors open fire, and what damage they might do when they open fire.

Putting the choppers themselves under 'Spawn if...' conditions might help as well, spawning the choppers such that they appear either in, or as they are about to enter the LZ in question. Used in thoughtful concert with the aforementioned suggestions, your Hinds should last at least long enough to land their squads.


Shot

That's all well and good but in the context of a scenario it may raise questions: I don't want to resort to spawning in units in plain sight- it not only ruins the immersion, but that conjures up a sight which would seem absurd- and it's unfair. In that case I may as well spawn in the airborne troops without the helos altogether- it's easier, and the end result is just the same.

On the other hand, holding fire isn't what I have in mind either: I think the defending units should have rights to fire back, and I don't want them to get caught into a situation where they are knocked out of play because they have been castrated if only to facilitate the helicopters coming in- or at least, both of these suggestions may settle in the interim until something or the other is addressed. But it may be more of a freak that the odd helicopter is downed by a small squad without heavy weapons; four or six on average is difficult to believe. In 2003, an RG division in well-prepared defenses repulsed a large US helicopter assault force, it's true, but this just doesn't translate over well to any analogy of a few grunts doing it with consistent results. In other words- prima facie the attrition rate seems disproportionate and unexpected. If otherwise true, then the combat attack helicopter flunks, it is entirely discredited, and has little military value in the face of lightly armed squads- something we know is balanced out by historical results to the contrary.

Pure statistics don't settle with me until I see the analyses which argue for definite patterns about what has occured under very specific circumstances: the type of posture occupied by the defender and attacker, their composition and strength, nature of the terrain, altitude where losses were likely to occur, you know the drill. :)

[ShotMagnet]

Something like the following may help:

Choppers spawn a suitable distance from the LZ. Interdicting troops spawn, in response to the choppers and maybe in terms of a predetermined percentile. Troops thusly spawned are under Return Fire Only behavior, the Hinds fire if they see the troops and/or are fired on, jimmied to your satisfaction.

Not a perfect solution, but with a bit of cleverness should work.


Shot

[flyboy]

Gunship tactics are very much the same as MBT,s.Sneak around,get into a nice cleverly hidden position.Pop up, launch ATM,depending on seaker unit either stay up(wire guided or optical) or drop down(radar guided or Lazer),move and repeat.Gunships just do it from a much larger distance if you have a clear LOS to target.Getting a Hind into Knife fight will be a bad move unless there are three or more to ripple fire and suppress threats.Get in quick,loose all weapons and get the hell out of Dodge.

[Vati]

Gunship tactics are very much the same as MBT,s.Sneak around,get into a nice cleverly hidden position.Pop up, launch ATM,depending on seaker unit either stay up(wire guided or optical) or drop down(radar guided or Lazer),move and repeat.Gunships just do it from a much larger distance if you have a clear LOS to target.Getting a Hind into Knife fight will be a bad move unless there are three or more to ripple fire and suppress threats.Get in quick,loose all weapons and get the hell out of Dodge.
I think it is much better to say that it more depends on the type of the terrain, frontline and targets you are engaging. Hind specifically was not designed for pop-ups but to use its speed (it is still one of the fastest) and tactics in Afganistan and Chechenia reflected this.
For contrast, here is a video from Marine Cobras in Iraq:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lME90nKKE0&mode=related&search=
You can see that many engagements also took well below 1km!

[flyboy]

Cheers ..Yep I have seen that one before.Amazing how versatile the Cobra still is.Wonder how close they will get if they had Sam threats and Zsu emplacements.I agree with you thats why I put "unless" in my post.With a full set of rocket pods and with the 23mm and 37 cannon under the nose IIRC the Hind will tear anything in it,s way but with three you can lay waste to any threat.

[charlie_zero_five]

I guess thats the thing, the HIND in SBP has trouble engaging Infantry more than 1km out. I'd think it would just tear it up, but it kind of just sits there.