Town clearing, Advice needed

[stalintc]

Hi all,

I have a dilemma, I am trying to assault a town with:

- 4 Platoons of M1A1 including XO and CO

- 1 Platoon of M3A2 Brads (With scout troop dismounts)

- NO artillery support

Now I dont have a huge problem punching my way through the defences and holding off the armoured counter-attack that I am forced to face.

The problem comes when I try to assault and secure the actual town objective with a mainly armour force. I understand the fact that:

tanks + close in town fighting = bad idea unless properly supported with infantry, even so its probably still a bad idea.

I have no useful infantry or artillery and find my forces get mauled by the enemy infantry even sitting just outside of the objective. I am yet to capture the OBJ in any of my attempts.. considering also I use 1 of the 4 tank platoons available to me as a rear guard and another 1 platoon for flank security due to the nature of the terrain. I use the Bradleys to attempt to supress the defenders.

If anyone could provide some helpful advice that would be much appreciated.

The scenario that I am playing for your reference is "OPERATION JACK-KNIFE"

[chappy]

although i dont know the size of the town you are referring to, i will say that 1 platoon of bradleys and their associated dismounts is NOT ENOUGH to secure a town unless the defence is of about section strength or less.

[stalintc]

Hmmm I cant be exact at my guess of the force composition in that town, but it most certainley seemed like several platoons of infantry, it was like attacking a bees nest, not to mention having to stay on the move due to defensive enemy artillery fires...

Off the top of my head I cant give you an estimate of how large the town is im afraid, but as towns go, I would say *medium* lol

[Skybird03]

Don't forget that infantry functions - let's say sub-optimal only in SBP, and the focus is on mechanized, tank, vehicle warfare. I have given up to play scenarios that have an explicit focus on fights between armoured and infantry team. The AI simply handles it too dull, wether tanks reacting unproperly to infantry in houses and getting picked away by ATGMs one by one, or being confused by infantry between houses, or infantry in the open being too easy targets (they never crawl, they shoot with minor callibre at tanks hundreds of meters away, they move when they shouldn't , and freeze when they better should get out, and they are too fast to call it walking, but way too slow to call in running. What "taking cover" means seem to be unknown to them.) They do not have an equivalent to the semi-automatically reacting AI of tanks whose drivers try to relocate within limits when contact is made, at least not to the same degree. Infantry very much is a compromise in SBP. I think of infantry in SBP like I thought of tanks in Flashpoint. Flashpoint was for infantry matches, SBP is for vehicle matches. Tanks in Flashpoint were a bad joke, infantry in SBP is a compromise - it is there, but it is "sub-optimal".

So if I were you, I would edit the scenario in the editor and get myself some artillery support, then flatten the whole place, the flatter, the better.

[ShotMagnet]

HEAT lowers property values dramatically. Your tanks can potentially raze a whole town, and enemy troops hiding in the buildings of that town.

Put it to the torch, out of infantry AT missile range. The troops will not bother you again.


Shot

[CharlieB]

HEAT lowers property values dramatically. Your tanks can potentially raze a whole town, and enemy troops hiding in the buildings of that town.

Put it to the torch, out of infantry AT missile range. The troops will not bother you again.


Shot

Great if your country's ROE will allow you to do so. I would guess that most wouldn't in this day and age. Nevermind. If they are using the town as a defensive location and you don't really care - I'm with Shot - LEVEL IT!!!!

[stalintc]

I guess the consensus is scorched earth? im ok with that :) was hoping for a more tactile approach, but I dont have a problem blowing things up :biggrin:

Thanks gentlemen

[chappy]

a more tactile approach would be to get on the blower to your higher up and ask for a coy of infantry.
I wouldnt send my armoured force (and platoon of cav scouts) any where near a town unless intel tells me its either empty or held by less than a platoon of enemy

[CharlieB]

Chappy,

You are of course bang on. As a tankie I would not want to go any where near a town without intimate support from dismounted infantry.

Towns are not tank terrain - leave it to the grunts with 120 mouse hole charges when required.

[Gibsonm]

Only problem these days is that the amount of urban area is increasing so the chances of “bypassing” and “pushing on” to the good tank country becomes more limited.

Might have to swap some of those APFSDS rounds for some more HESH and smoke.

[stalintc]

Okay.. I dont like editing other peoples scenarios for my own benefit, but I might add a unit of mechanised infantry to help out a bit. Surely this wouldnt be considered cheating?!

Im not a fan of not being able to finish a scenario :)

[CharlieB]

As I said HESH instead of mouse hole charges.

I seem to recall that fin was particularly good at bring down buildings that are not structurally sound due to the associted shock wave. Fin was only used as that is what is generally up the spout as the default setting.

[CharlieB]

Okay.. I dont like editing other peoples scenarios for my own benefit, but I might add a unit of mechanised infantry to help out a bit. Surely this wouldnt be considered cheating?!

Im not a fan of not being able to finish a scenario :)

I would also look at splitting the tanks down so you have better arnour/inf coordination. No need to send 4 tanks down the same street. If its a bad route then you just end up loosing them all at the same time. Mech inf are probably best - ASLAV PC of M113 - something with a point and shoot 50 cal.

[ShotMagnet]

Machine-gunning potential/likely/possible ambush sites, or anywhere else you think RPG-toting baddies might be could also work. You have to get closer, but it could work. I would think that liberal doses of .50 cal should work, provided you have .50 cal-toting assets.

M1s do, but so do M-113s, and Humvees. Depends on your tastes; me; I'm for large-scale renovation, but that's just me.


Shot

[Kingtiger]

Do you have a HEMT truck in the scenario?

if you do, put it close behind your tanks, then pump HE into the town forever ;)

if the town is still there when you are finished, send a squad in to chek the bodytags.. :P

(NB! this only works in SB, don try this in real life thoe it has been proven not working [Stalingrad ex..])

/KT

[stalintc]

Good ideas gentlemen, thanks for your suggestions, I will get there eventually im sure.

Please dont get me wrong I do realise that tanks are not meant for strolling into a town especially un-supported by infantry (im not that stupid ;) ) but I was just originally trying to complete the scenario with the resources that were given to me by the scenario.

In answer to KT yes you are given one HEMMT I think, but I cant remember the scenario giving me control of it once it had reached the designated re-arm location, so I will just have to keep one unit up front opening fire while I retreat the other to re-arm :) its a good idea I like it, that way I can keep the other two platoons providing flank and rear guard security, since I dont know what else the scenario will throw at me.

Thanks again people!

[chappy]

one of the greatest limitations to scenario design in SB PRO PE is the scenario designer himself

what i mean is, if someone doesnt understand the intricacies of tactics or doctrine for the forces he's modelling, the chances are the scenario will have holes in its development.
Things people often leave out of their scenarios is the OPTIONS available to a commander in the field. They either leave it out due to ignorance or due to lack of motivation to build a 'complete' scenario.

examples of things often not considered by scenario builders:

Tactical options : eg go left flank, go right flank or up the guts. And the associated enemy reaction to different tactical decisions (to make this work takes a lot of 'embark if' and 'spawn if' commands.

Mission objective decisions: Can the cmdr acheive the mission when
a) the situation changes,
b) losses are incurred
c) time runs low

Decisions the commander can make when the above happens: things like requesting additional time, requesting replen, requesting air support, requesting reinforcement. Withdrawal and cancellation of mission (liberal use of triggers here as the means of communicating requests to the higher commander off map)

I know in a 'game' environment, suggesting that a mission is no longer acheivable and giving the option to 'withdraw' seems to be anathema (most likely because it is a 'game' and so taking the risk to finish the mission is acceptable) but if one is aiming for realism in a scenario then force survival and mission feasibility have to be considered and allowed for in the mission design.

In theory (my theory) i would see nothing wrong with a scenario that is impossible to finish or results in defeat if attempted for the simple fact that it would (ideally) teach the person doing the mission the value of saying 'no thats impossible' or ' no i cant do this without xxxx support' This is, after all, supposed to be a tool in tactical training.

[Skybird03]

Chappy scores full points for a perfect answer. :up:

[CharlieB]

I also would have to agree with Chappy.

I am in the process of starting a series of scenarios in which the player should expect to be overrun and defeated in the first few scenes. After all an enemy is not going to start in invasion if he dosn't think it is going to be profitable!!!

I am attempting the scripting to allow the call of reinforcements that are available after a certain period and trying to force a player to maintain a certain level of combat effectivness. This can prove a little difficult and frustrating when trying to write the logic. Any advice greatly welcome.

[Ssnake]

In real life, the suggested force composition is totally unsuitable for urban combat as the dismount strength of the M3s, as has been noted, is way too small to be of any use (besides, these guys are trained to sneak, watch, and tell or to use lots of firepower at long distance, but not going toe to toe with anyone in urbanized terrain).

Since nothing was said about ROEs, it must be assumed in this scenarios that the gloves are off. This does open the possibility to simply flatten the village from a distance. The M3s 25mm HE is best since it is available in large quantity and can easily set everything on fire. Then let it burn, finally apply HE in generous doses on the defenders.

Of course, real life would not allow this approach as 25mm HE may set things on fire, but don't flatten buildings (even if ROEs would permit it, which can be assumed to be unrealistic in itself).


Ultimately you are facing a combination of simulation limitations (which can be made to work in your favor, if you look at it purely as a game with rules that may be exploited to your advantage) and severe tactical limitations as set by the mission designer. The one viable option for the player seems to be the application of massive firepower. Not very subtle indeed.

[stalintc]

Oh yes good point ssnake, I didnt think of the vast quantities of HE available on the M3's that will work quite well.

When I get back around to the scenario again I will give that a go, ill burn them out!! :biggrin:

[Tiny]

It's a shame you can't use a russian tanks ammo load out...considering they have all those HE/HE FRAG/ HE FRAG FS and stuff :)

[JamesT73J]

I found GaryOwen's 'Bridges of Al-Taibiya' an interesting scenario for armour vs. infantry.

I couldn't beat it initially (there's one route through the town, no arty support, and it's full of RPG-wielding crunchies), but then I positioned a platoon up in the hills overlooking the whole town, and basically blew the place to bits :)

Also, the bushmaster's 25mm HE is my new best friend in ProPE when it comes to infantry. It's absolutely marvelous for quickly dispatching squads of dismounts.

And setting things on fire.


James