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Old 10-07-2013, 05:13 PM
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lavictoireestlavie lavictoireestlavie is offline
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Leopard 2 turret armor values

Turret Armor KE Rha values for the Leopard 2E and Challenger 2 seems to be rather high. The M1A2 seems to have rather weak turret armor in comparison.
I thought the DU inserts should give the M1A2 SEP a definite KE edge over the Leopard 2 series of tanks. Can anybody explain this to me ?









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Old 10-07-2013, 05:53 PM
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

leopard 2A5 front turret has a steeply angled hollow wedge designed to angle and break a sabot round before it hits the main armour. even a fairly minor angle induced on the penetrator will drastically reduce the
L/D ratio and therefore the penetration of the round.
also, the front turret max LOS thickness is about 1713mm.

the challenger turret armour, has the steepest angle on the front turret of any tank,
its angled backwards 52 degrees, and sideways 27 degrees, giving it nearly 1150mm of LOS thickness to work with.
for comparison, the M1A2 front turret LOS thickness is about 710mm at its thickest.

the M1A2 armour pretty much has the highest thickness efficiency of all these tanks,

getting 950mm out 710mm vs KE.
second place is challenger 2, with 1250mm out of 1150mm
and third place leopard 2 with 1380mm out of over 1700mm of armour.

Last edited by dejawolf; 10-07-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:41 PM
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavictoireestlavie View Post
Can anybody explain this to me ?
Yes, in a nut shell: wedge and/or steep angle vs. non-wedge and/or shallow angle.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:58 PM
Damian90 Damian90 is offline
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

Quote:
the M1A2 front turret LOS thickness is about 710mm at its thickest.
Extremely underestimated. From a person that had opportunity to messure it, M1A2's front turret armor is ~850-900mm thick, compared to ~800-850mm thick of Leopard 2.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:23 PM
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

A guy mesuring stuff with a two-inch-precision surely nailed it...
... or that's just guesstimations.
Would be better to see empirical evidences.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:26 PM
Damian90 Damian90 is offline
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

Unfortunetaly no photos, I have only photos of Leopard 2A4 turret meassured, source is same as infos of M1A1/A2 turret thickness.

BTW If I am not wrong, weld lines on M1 models in SB, are too much to the front, not how they are on real thing, which might cause wrong estimations.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:30 PM
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

hmmh, the LOS thickness i put in could be wrong, but the M1A2 SEP armour figures was based on paul Lakowskis figures, and not estimated from the thickness of the armour.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:40 PM
Damian90 Damian90 is offline
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

I am not sure if Paul's estimations were all proper, some of them are considered as wrong these days.

I also made some research on this subject, Dejawolf, you remember STGN? He made a very accurate 3d model of M1A1, to the scale, and his meassures of front armor were also around 900mm. As we know, M1A1's turret is same as M1A2's.

BTW here are some good photos:

Interior:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6249/turret10.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2...am1a1m1a22.jpg

Exterior:

http://merrillaviation.com/images/uploads/SCWS.png

SB model:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/...serialNumber=1

You can see that on the model, weld lines are too far to the turret front edges, while on real thing armor ends just at GPS and CITV "chimneys".

BTW, CITV hole is smaller, than it's base visible from the outside.

Sorry for lack of photos, I lost whole my archieve due to HDD malfunction few weeks ago.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:00 PM
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

Well the issue is not with the physical thickness in the first place, the issue is that IF Paul's values are so dated that they are now wrong, then newer estimates are needed. But until he makes newer estimates there is no reason to panic or assume an error.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:08 PM
Damian90 Damian90 is offline
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Re: Leopard 2 turret armor values

Well, Paul's estimations on physical thickness seems to be wrong. Good example is Leopard 2A1/A4.

In his "Armor Basics", Paul writes that "The turret thickness ranges from 1000mm near the corners and 1300mm inthe middle 700mm along the mantlet"

Source: http://pl.scribd.com/doc/6032093/Armor-Basics

While in reality, thickness at 0 degrees from turret longitudinal axis is same all over the place, it is ~800mm.



This rather shows something is not right.
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