Welcome to Steelbeasts.com

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

mapman

The Art of Scenario Design

211 posts in this topic

Jayman....All contributions are welcome!

Shot is refering to a flow chart for how we put the design guide together. However, I think a flow chart for how a scr is built and one for how the logic box works would be great too!

Perhaps GO and Shot can get with you on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Regarding flowcharts:

I still don't get it.

You can teach someone the proper step-by-step method to clean brushes. You can teach someone the proper step-by-step way to mount canvas. Maybe you can claim that there is a proper way to mix pigment. You can teach techniques of applying pigment to canvas. But you cannot teach the 'proper' way to make art. Unless of course, you consider paint-by-number kits masterpieces.

You can't flowchart a creative process.

As far as flowcharting how to give commands with the logic box; that's too complex. There are multiple ways to get the same results. There are always things that you can do that you never thought you could do. The only part of that process that you could flowchart would be the debugging process. It would look like this:

There is a problem ----->NO---->END

|

V

YES

|

V

Try and figure out what the problem is.

|

V

Edit the commands.

|

V

Test the new commands.

|

V

GOTO Step 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Point taken GO.

I was thinking more of a flow chart with blanks to be printed out and filled in as a tool to help work through the logic. One would use a pencil and an eraser of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

You can't flowchart a creative process.

Nor am I suggesting that it be tried.

The flowchart, as the name implies, only describes the steps of the iterative process and what decisions influence what steps of the process. It also provides an at-a-glance description for those of us, like me, who would rather see a picture than read a paragraph.

I was actually more interested in doing/getting an FC describing the flow of an event or a trigger or a condition, and what steps in the algorithmic process control proceeding actions. Map's idea of creating a blank one is also good, though it might work better to create the thing virtually.

Jayman, if you have Visio and are wanting to submit a chart detailing the logic-flow of an event/trigger/condition, that'd be great. We can add it to what GO has already given us. Send me a PM or e-mail.

Shot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Still don't understand what you are talking about Shot.

"logic-flow of an event/trigger/condition"? How to determine when to use them? How the computer resolves them? Regarding triggers there is no logic "flow," they are either ON or OFF. Regarding events and conditions, they are too complex. Among other things, they can both refer to other events and conditions being true or false, they can refer to any unit in the scenario on or off the map, they can refer to random numbers singly or in a co-ordinated fashion with other events and conditions, etc. Visually representing a particular written example might make sense, but if that's what you mean, then Mapman's template idea doesn't make sense.

If you want a template, the best way that I can think of doing that would be to print out screenshots of the different 'logic boxes' for each of the commands after having whited-out the variable fields in the bottom portion of the box so that you can pencil that information in. I've often thought it would be helpful if there was a print out all conditions or all events function so that debugging would be easier. It's a pain in the ass to keep switch screens to find the one spot where I referred to the wrong random variable. Having a stack of paper notes might help with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

It simply comes down to this:

Examples make difficult subjects easier to understand.

This is not an easy part of scenario design. Despite the excellent description of the mechanics, GO is referring to the "art" of logic design. We don't need to teach or illustrate the art. Just a few possible answers to some basic, "easily modified-now-that-I-understand-how" problems.

We could just refer people to their mission editors and cracking open other scenarios, but that would defeat the purpose of what we are trying to produce here. I'm like Shot, a visual learner. Whether we are talking about a flow chart or creating a few sample problems/solutions, I think it will be helpful to the community at large.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

I'm thinking in terms of how a designer can visualize the behavior the one is attempting to create.

The background in symbolic logic so far provided is great, I'm also looking for a dissection of a behavior, something showing how the game takes the designer's input and turns it into that behavior. What we ultimately want to do is provide the designer with a means by which the one can look at a behavior being modeled and say 'I made a mistake here'. We don't have to model every single possibliity (and we couldn't if we wanted to) but if we give a generalization of how the computer treats a behavior, using a dissected conditioned route perhaps, that should be good enough.

Dr. Device wrote

We don't need to teach or illustrate the art. Just a few possible answers to some basic, "easily modified-now-that-I-understand-how" problems.

What he said. Better than I said it.

Shot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Hi guys,

I've just finished the logic flow chart. I made 4 jpg and one Excel worksheet.

_The pics are for an easyier understanding of the logics used in the scenario designer, it explains the OR, AND conditions and also gives an overview of the total possibilities.

_The Excel worksheet gives you the possibility to see every combination you can use, like A or {(B and C) or D or (f and G)}. and print it (you might have to re-adjust the print area as we use A4 size in Europe).

I could be a good add-on for the "SB Logic guide" made by GO.

If you have any complaints or comments...............

Hope it helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very, very nice tool Jayman!!!

Thank you!!!

I will post it to the site shortly.

mm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

I don't know if it's what you were expecting or asking for. If there is anything else I can do, just ask.

Glad to help.

Very, very nice tool Jayman!!!

Thank you!!!

Thanx !!! :thelmuts:

(at least french are usefull for somthing LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's certainly impressive. Two requests: could you re-word 'condition' to 'proposition' or something like that, and could you indicate that when a valve isn't used in the sentence it is assumed to remain open? (The word 'condition' is problematic because the game uses 'conditions' and use of that word to do anything other than refer to the 'conditions' in the game might be confusing.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

could you re-word 'condition' to 'proposition' or something like that

Normally the proposition is the beginning (top box) and what you call a proposition is in fact a condition. But I agree it can be confusing. The flowchart can also be used for the "conditions" as they use the same logical system as the "embark if"

could you indicate that when a valve isn't used in the sentence it is assumed to remain open?

I need a little explanation about that. For me when it's not used it's not there. If you are referring to to the complete flowchart (jpg) it's just a global picture of the complete sentence A and/or {(B and C) or (D and E) or (F and G)}. That's the meaning of the Excel sheet. You can choose to put only the conditions you want to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jayman...your avitars and signature graphics are starting to look like the product of a disturbed mind...LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

In the terminology, I was taught, and tried to use in the essay, a proposition is any statement that is either true or false. There's a type of statement that's called a conditional. It contains an antecedent and a consequent, and is another name for what I've called the "IF, THEN operator". Another name for the antecedent is the sufficient condition, and for the consequent, the necessary condition. In order to avoid confusion, in my own mind as well as elsewhere, I thought it would be best to refer to the 'conditions' at the bottom of the box as "propositions", rather than as "conditions" of a disjunction or conjunction. (I was taught that these propositions are called either disjuncts or conjuncts.) If you don't like "proposition", no big deal, something else would be fine. I just thought that using 'condition' might be confusing.

As far as unused valves not being there: I don't have Excel, so my comment was based solely on the flowcharts. My thought was that rather than having someone try to redraw your flowcharts for themselves to omit any unused valves, you could just say that unused valves stay open.

BTW, "logic flow" -> valves is brilliant. I kept thinking, 'logic-flow', what the hell does that mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

The excel sheet is WAY COOL.

There is a library of parts of the flow chart as seen in the screen shots above.

On a different spread sheet are buttons with

A AND

A OR

B and C

D and E

F and G

B

D

F

Each button brings up the appropriate portion of the flow chart and they connect together in the order pressed. When done, you have a complete flow chart bases upon your selections!

Very nice.

The only thing I might suggest Jay is that you have an undo button available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Two issues I'd like to see addressed:

1. I want one side to have to hold an objective for X full minutes from the moment they first take control of it. Once they have held it for the required time, the scenario ends.

2. I want one side to be penalized (points, not destroyed vehicles) if they enter a region before a particular event occurs. Once they see the event notice, they can enter freely. (I tried this one, but it doesn't work the way I thought it would.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two issues I'd like to see addressed:

1. I want one side to have to hold an objective for X full minutes from the moment they first take control of it. Once they have held it for the required time, the scenario ends.

This one takes an event message to announce the end of the game. The message must go to both sides, however. One way to do that is to have an offmap HMMWV sitting in a region underneath an arty pre-plot that splashes when the objective is secured appropriately. The ENDEX message event on both sides can reference the destruction of the HMMWV in the offmap region.

2. I want one side to be penalized (points, not destroyed vehicles) if they enter a region before a particular event occurs. Once they see the event notice, they can enter freely. (I tried this one, but it doesn't work the way I thought it would.)

see attached .sce file

simonsays_zip.6db5731f4772fbcea3ef2e1b45

simonsays.zip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

My thought was that rather than having someone try to redraw your flowcharts for themselves to omit any unused valves, you could just say that unused valves stay open.

It might be good for an AND condition, but very dispointing for an OR condition (if one is open, then the condition is met).

The only thing I might suggest Jay is that you have an undo button available.

I still did not find out a way to do it ! :oops: But you can select the pic you want to remove and press "DEL", it will remove it from the MAIN sheet but will still be avilible for next operation.

Concerning people without Excel I have to find something else.

Jayman...your avitars and signature graphics are starting to look like the product of a disturbed mind...LOL

And YES I start being disturbed, I've been working since new year without a day off and want to go home, which is melting my brain down. LOL

PS: If there is someone with some VBA knoledge and knows how the code for removing a pic from an active sheet, give me a shout !!!!!

And MM, I can see that SB2 screenshots are usefull !!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to update the new xl worksheet with a "reset" fuction and change a couple of things, so I removed the download.

I'll post the new one when finished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thought was that rather than having someone try to redraw your flowcharts for themselves to omit any unused valves, you could just say that unused valves stay open.

It might be good for an AND condition, but very dispointing for an OR condition (if one is open, then the condition is met).

Yeah, you're right. That's not a good way to explain it. In fact that's probably the wrong way to explain it. If you can think of a good way to explain it, please do. I know that I can look at your flowchart and that it makes sense. I can see, however, that someone might wonder how to use it when not all of the conditions/propositions/variables are used in the sentence. And in my case, even though I think that it makes sense to me, I used the wrong way of explaining (valves being open) how it works when stuff is not used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

OK Gary, I see what you mean. For that I added new drawings to be embedded in a web page, so the zip file is rather large (1.8 M).

And for the XL worksheet I've modified a bunch of things, looks more neat and a reset button. I still have to improve my vba coding, maybe I should buy a book ? LOL

And we can also use it for the all the logic system used in scenarios, as preplanned arty, condions, and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jayman..file is missing..please upload again.

Thanks,

MM

The selected Attachment does not exist anymore

404 File Not Found: The File ./modules/PNphpBB2/files/sb_logic_planner.zip does not exist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Very nice!

Now I just need to figure out how I can make a webpage do what your excell sheet does for those who don't have excel!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now