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mapman

The Art of Scenario Design

211 posts in this topic

The Obstacles and Fortifications chapter is now complete. Anyone wishing a copy should send me either a PM or an e-mail.

Shot

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I have had some success with converting scenarios from older games like Close Combat and Combat mission into SB scenarios. They seem have have played out pretty well so far. Just takes forever to scratch build the terrain.

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You're quite welcome. You'll have received a rather lengthy e-mail by the time you read this. Same for you Hot Tom.

Shot

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Shot,

Re: Obstacles and Fortifications chapter.

This is excellent and would have saved me a lot of trial and error when I was starting to write scenarios. Great work!

A couple of questions:

On the Abatis, what is the tail (on the symbol) do when you stretch it out? I assume that's supposed to be concertina wire but does it actually stop anything?

On the MICLIC, as I've written before, I've never been able to figure where to place the waypoint at which it retreats. I either place it too far from the mines (in which case it turns around without firing) or too close to the mines (it fires its charges and then drives into the minefield and blows itself up before reaching the waypoint). If there is a magic formula, I sure would like to know it.

Personally, I would have included the ditch as an obstacle. Sure, it has water in it, but that isn't what's important. It's really a tank trap. You have to use a ditch that's wide enough to stop vehicles. If you want to make it breachable, then it also must be narrow enough so the AVLBs can lay a bridge over it.

My only criticism is the discussion of "how much is too much?" in using obstacles and the recommendation you gave was very vague.

For those interested in making accurate obstacle systems, US Army FM 5-34, Engineering Field Data (which -- despite its VERY boring sounding title, but have you ever met a creative engineer? -- is The Bible on how to build things and how to blow things up in the field) particularly Chapter 2 "Mobility" and Chapter 3 "Countermobility."

The FM is extremely well illustrated and shows all kinds of obstacles and how to use them (it also has data on how long it takes to build them, which makes me glad we can do it with the click of a mouse).

It also tells you how to breach them and how wide the lanes have to be for various vehicles and what you need to do it. For example, you indicate Dragon's Teeth can't be breached. Sure they can: With satchel charges (which we don't have but maybe someday the engineers will be more functional in SB). The FM even tells you how much explosive you need to blow up various size concrete teeth.

Even more useful for the mission designer, it has drawings showing Soviet-type obstacle systems, both hasty and deliberate and an excellent example of the use of obstacles in a typical Soviet-style Motorized Rifle Battalion strongpoint.

If you ever revise the chapter, and have a way of adding those illustrations of Soviet obstacle systems (there are only three of them), that would answer the question of "How much is too much?"

Again, a very good introduction to the subject. The whole effort has been greatly appreciated by me in learning how to use the Mission Editor.

:cvcsalut:

HT

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My only criticism is the discussion of "how much is too much?" in using obstacles and the recommendation you gave was very vague.

That's because the notion of 'how many' with regards to sufficiency is essentially a mission-dependant issue. I believe I noted that 'if you think you have enough, you probably have too many', and 'if you think you have too few, you probably have enough'.

Otherwise, it's nigh-on impossible to recommend a given number of any obstacle-type that will be applicable to all missions. I believe the thing mentioned something about using them sparingly, serving (hopefully) the purpose of using them well.

On the Abatis, what is the tail (on the symbol) do when you stretch it out?
I don't know, I didn't test what happens to the tail. I'd assumed that, as with the rest of the obstacles, the symbol itself only told someone how the obstacle was oriented. To my knowledge the tail doesn't do anything.
I assume that's supposed to be concertina wire but does it actually stop anything?
The wire is supposedly integral to the rest of the obstacle. Again, to my knowledge.
On the MICLIC...I've never been able to figure where to place the waypoint at which it retreats. If there is a magic formula, I sure would like to know it.
Interesting question. When I set the thing up for testing I gave it a breach route and it seemed to work fine. I'll try it again, though.

Glad you're finding it useful otherwise. The whole purpose behind the SBSDG is to explain these sorts of things so that the whole community doesn't have to:

'reinvent the wheel';

go by word-of-mouth;

resort to trial and error more than minimally;

when it comes to using the ME.

Shot

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Absolutely. Probably tonight or tomorrow. I'm at my sister's house at the moment.

Personally, I would have included the ditch as an obstacle
The ditch was in SB:Gold. It was really more a depression than a ditch, but it was still pretty cool. You could make sunken roads, and low spots on the map, and boat ramps, and so on. I miss the ditch, and hope that one day it will forgive me...

Shot

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For some reason I can not get the FTP to work.

I have updated the site files and emailed them to Sean.

They should be posted soon.

~mm

Edit: Both chapters are now up and ready for viewing!

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Shot,

On the MICLIC, as I've written before, I've never been able to figure where to place the waypoint at which it retreats. I either place it too far from the mines (in which case it turns around without firing) or too close to the mines (it fires its charges and then drives into the minefield and blows itself up before reaching the waypoint). If there is a magic formula, I sure would like to know it.

HT

My Salisbury Plain Air Assault mission includes a minefield breech on the northern axis. The scripting is not password protected so that should allow you to see how it was done. I have not experienced any dramas with it so it should help. PM me if you wish.

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hi all, sorry to ask, but did anyone think of putting this in a wiki so that all members of the SB community can contribute?

I ask coz' I would like to 1 read whats been written 2 maybe contribute, 3be able to refer or link to sections for others asking questions and 4 I never read all 19 pages of this thread.

peace

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A wiki is being worked on, some content needs to be updated before its posted to the public. Send me a pm if you cant wait to see it :-)

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A PM or e-mail sent my way will also score you what chapters you may be wanting.

Note that the DG is and probably always will be a living document, and as such will never be all the way 'finished'.

In the meantime, there are two more chapters to complete, then I have to go over all the old stuff and update it. If you see something that looks out of date, bear with me. It'll get changed.

Shot

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I'm at the point where I can either:

Finish up with the design guide's last couple of chapters, or;

Revamp the old one to make them more relevant.

Doing the first involves will have me talking about artillery, how to write a briefing, and testing.

Doing the other will involve me updating the old stuff to bring it in keeping with the new stuff.

I'm open to suggestions, regarding what you who will be using this wish to see done first. Absent a decisive vote, I'll go ahead and do the first.

Shot

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I would go ahead and finish the last couple of chapters.

You can always go back and revise the older chapters to bring them up to date.

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SM,

For what it's worth, I'm willing to give the briefing portion a try if it will lighten the workload a tad. I'd kill to get a reference like this for scenario design. Let me know if you think I can help.

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Hi All.

I have been reading thru the posts on this page, trying to create a scenario design. Thanks to all of you who created lots of help, but there must be a manual for this. It can not only be try and error. I did spend some money on this sim. Most links in this thread are old and not working. 

 

Some things are not working at all. fx. i ordered a APC to unload troops if under fire. Did Not work, I told the same APC to unload Troops if another unit was under fire OR destroyed. Did not work.

I'm having a hard time finding solutions on how to make Enemy show some sort of realistic action.

I guess I'm asking if someone could post examples of how to make and Attacking enemy force react in a sort of natural way when being in contact. This will not always happen at a waypoint, where I can put a Unload troops "order".

 

I understand that most of you have been doing an amazing job sorting this out and a huge Thank you for that. Has the developers not a manual ? I mean how did they create the game without a manual for the programmers. It's a huge part of the game I think.

Thank you

 

 

 

Edited by JUST
spelling

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3 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

Have you seen these YouTube videos yet?

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCEf6cGyAWmpq8BIghsUS-Xg

Hi Assassin 7.

Yes I have watched all of them and they give a good basis introduction to creating a scenario. I"m looking for more in depth info as it is a bit annoying when a action as simple as Unload troops if unit THIS is under direct fire OR indirect Fire, is not working. 

If an Action is not possible, whey is it there. 

My problem is that I lack a fundamental understanding of the "rules" of the system and what is possible and what is not possible. 

How does a AI unit react to this or that. Why is it not possible to unload troops (unit B) when Unit A is under fire or destroyed. And what will these unloaded troops do after they are unloaded. will they continue on the path layed down for the APC.

 

I use this as an example, but this is just one of them. 

So I guess there is no manual for this ?

 

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3 minutes ago, JUST said:

So I guess there is no manual for this ?

 

Not in terms of every possible combination / permutation - it would be 1000s of pages long.

 

That's the upside/downside of a product with a lot of flexibility.

 

If you post exactly what you are trying to achieve, there are a bunch of people here (including me) who are happy to help - but it needs to be detailed, not vague comments about "infantry wont unload".

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26 minutes ago, JUST said:

Hi Assassin 7.

Yes I have watched all of them and they give a good basis introduction to creating a scenario. I"m looking for more in depth info as it is a bit annoying when a action as simple as Unload troops if unit THIS is under direct fire OR indirect Fire, is not working. 

If an Action is not possible, whey is it there. 

My problem is that I lack a fundamental understanding of the "rules" of the system and what is possible and what is not possible. 

How does a AI unit react to this or that. Why is it not possible to unload troops (unit B) when Unit A is under fire or destroyed. And what will these unloaded troops do after they are unloaded. will they continue on the path layed down for the APC.

 

I use this as an example, but this is just one of them. 

So I guess there is no manual for this ?

 

Try looking here: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Moving_Units_On_Routes#Engage

 

You can use the engage tactics  or the scout tactics.

Edited by Assassin 7

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