Welcome to Steelbeasts.com

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

lavictoireestlavie

USMC M1A1 HC vs. US Army M1A2 SEP armor package difference

I was under the impression from what I read that the latest USMC M1A1 HC and M1A2 SEP (v1 or v2) of the US Army have the same armor package. Can anyone tell whether or not this is the case?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not the M1A1HC but M1A1FEP. USMC tanks are also modernized, and M1A1FEP is equivalent to US Army/ARNG M1A1SA. And in several sources it was mentioned that M1A1SA also receives armor upgrades.

Australian M1A1SA's weight 63,5 metric tons (empty), which is same as M1A2SEP weight.

Australian MoD sources says that armor their tanks use is equivalent to US Heavy Armor, just that instead of DU they are using something else, perhaps Tungsten?

Besides it's makes sense that when you upgrade your tanks, and you upgrade also their protection, you just use the currently produced latest avaiable armor package.

And because special armor of modern tanks like M1 is semi-modular... or actually modular just in a different way, it's relatively easy to replace old armor with new one.

2lw0s5s.png

Here you can see some turrets after armor upgrades, some are still awaiting them.

Besides here comes just economy of scale, so it's obvious that armor manufacturing will be cheaper when more vehicles will receive the same specific armor type, and then there is also commonality factor involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AFAIK order for first tanks were made, and it goes very well.

And M1A2SEPv3 (ECP1 upgrade package) will be significant one.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/army/2015m1a2sep3.pdf

Here something about general armor and survivability upgrade.

iDU7cGOGSeU.jpg

We can see on photo one of M1A2SEPv3 prototypes, this one still have the same armor package as M1A2SEPv2 (technically speaking this vehicles is still kinda M1A2SEPv2), we can see weight simulators welded to turret and hull front. By this we can more or less tell that new armor package will be heavier than the old one, weight should be calculated that way : 3rd generation heavy Armor Package weight + weight of weight simulators = Next Evolutionary Armor weight. So upgrade will be significant.

Also notice other changes, mainly structural to hull, and other survivability improvements.

I also found document where they say, they might try to integrate laser warning receivers among other stuff, this imply that US Army desires sort of active protection system on their tanks, and not only tanks, i seen mentions of active protection system development also for infantry fighting vehicles, but it is delayed due to budgetary reasons.

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2016/Army/stamped/0203735A_7_PB_2016.pdf

Title: Abrams Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) 1B (formerly ECP 2) - Lethality ECP

Description: The Abrams ECP 1B (formerly ECP 2) program consists mainly of lethality improvements.

The primary focus is the integration of Improved Forward Looking Infrared (IFLIR) and the integration of Ammunition Data Link (ADL) for the Advanced

Multi-purpose (AMP) round. Additional improvements to the target acquisition sensors consist of inclusion of color cameras and laser capabilities. Other potential improvements consist of an improved environmental control system, laser warning receiver, and vehicle smoke generation. Trade studies/analysis will be performed to evaluate other potential improvements.

Another interesting thing is Ammunition Data Link or ADL. It's obvious it's necessary for new 120mm multipurpose HE round and it's programmable fuze.

http://proceedings.ndia.org/5560/Thursday/Session_IV-A/Friedberg.pdf

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/issues/2013/APR_JUN/Articles/PeraltaArticle.pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007gun_missile/GMThurAM2/SunderlandPresentation.pdf

However interesting thing is that also new APFSDS M829A4 also, have Ammunition Data Link.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/army/2015m829a4.pdf

There is a lot of speculations how it might work, and why it's there in the first place, but nobody knows.

We also know that in general the ECP1 upgrade is not the first and last one, during AUSA 2015 GDLS representative said that for example mobility upgrade will be made most likely within "third generation engineering change proposal" so ECP3.

So within ECP3 we might see a diesel engine upgrade among other things, there is a prototype hull with diesel for testing.

While within ECP2 as it was originally intended we might see for example new main armament for M1, there is a new 120mm smoothbore gun designed for it, XM360E1.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayReunionDavidSmith.pdf

1418208604-xm360-and-xm360e1.png

A thing I observed about XM360 and XM360E1 is, that XM360 was able to fire the same ammunition as M256, which means it could handle the same pressures, however XM360E1 is said to be able to fire ammo at higher pressures than XM360, which might suggest that it can also fire ammo at higher pressures than M256 (and perhaps also various variants of Rh120). It also looks like XM360E1 have a longer barrel without muzzle break than XM360, and XM360 was said to be L48, longer than M256 L44. Can this mean XM360E1 is longer than L48? Perhaps L50?

Other upgrades are of course electronics.

ECP1.bmp

Here is a turret demonstrator with upgrades.

http://leanermoreagileabct.com/pdfs/Abrams_brochure.pdf

In general it will be a very good upgrade.

PS. Here are also US Army general plans for modernization.

http://www.g8.army.mil/pdf/Army_Equipment_Program2016.pdf

image.jpg

Here we can see that both M1 and M2 replacements are planned, with serious development start around 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow :shocked:. Thanks for this elaborate post. Very interesting stuff!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2020 a long way off, think I'll wait and see if this dreaming comes down the pipe, or a new MBT comes along, you know a shinny new thing, we all like a shinny new things:luxhello:

We may get a new TRUMP tank anywho:gun::wink2::wink2::wink2::wink2:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Well these are plans for now, US Army hopes that after 2020 budgetary problems will be solved, because right now they are sacrificing majority of R&D work for better readiness, so most of cash goes for refurbishment/modernization of existing equipment and weapons, ammo, excercises and so on.

Which makes sense. And it seems Russians won't field large numbers of their new platforms Armata, Kurganets and Boomerang soon. Just recently KurganMashZavod got real budget problems, they will most likely bankrupt very soon, this can mean more delays in Kurganets program.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2016/02/10/Russias-Kurganmashzavod-filing-for-bankruptcy/5411455111370/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://slideplayer.com/slide/10870946/

 

Extremely interesting presentation from AUSA 2016. We can see there final designation codes for Bradley based M113 replacements, but also new light tank concept, new MBT concept (Future Tank) and new IFV (Future Fighting Vehicle) concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the Ammunition Data Link...

 

Even if the new round is not programmable, the ADL may allow the ballistic computer to know what ammunition is actually loaded, so the crew need only index rounds not fitted with the ADL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Maj.Hans said:

About the Ammunition Data Link...

 

Even if the new round is not programmable, the ADL may allow the ballistic computer to know what ammunition is actually loaded, so the crew need only index rounds not fitted with the ADL.

 

Yes this is also a possibility, which does not exclude other possibilities, in general ADL can be a multifunction device. Also I seen that US designed ADL in the gun breech is designed for both US and European standard for rounds programmable fuzes.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

 

Yes this is also a possibility, which does not exclude other possibilities, in general ADL can be a multifunction device. Also I seen that US designed ADL in the gun breech is designed for both US and European standard for rounds programmable fuzes.

 

 

Oh I agree, I was just saying that the new SABOT round may not be a programmable sabot, and it may only use the ADL for ballistic computer.

 

I expect it will be used for programmable multifunction HEAT/HE/FRAG/MPAT/3P/etc type ammunition as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We gonna see, however, France also developed APFSDS round with ADL.

 

f664bac981633.jpg

 

I do not see any other reason why there is a wire going from the case base to the rod itself than possibility that the rod can be somehow programmed, perhaps the tip is some sort of precursor, M829A4 is probably very similiar.

 

By the way, rumors says that all M1's in active service right now are modified with ADL's even before main modernization effort started so they can use M829A4's with their full potential.

Edited by Damian90

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those wires couldn't be an antenna?  Or perhaps placed in the cutaway as misinformation...

 

We shall see.  Given the prevalence of anti-Sabot ERA (Kontakt-5, Kaktus, Nozh, Relikt, Duplet, and probably 20 more types I forgot the name of.) I'd be excited to see an APFSDS round with maybe a HEAT precursor or something to help penetrate that armor.

 

I'd have never thought of something like that, but this is definitely interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Maj.Hans said:

Those wires couldn't be an antenna?  Or perhaps placed in the cutaway as misinformation...

 

We shall see.  Given the prevalence of anti-Sabot ERA (Kontakt-5, Kaktus, Nozh, Relikt, Duplet, and probably 20 more types I forgot the name of.) I'd be excited to see an APFSDS round with maybe a HEAT precursor or something to help penetrate that armor.

 

I'd have never thought of something like that, but this is definitely interesting.

 

Precursor can be also kinetic, and most likely is. The round probably can be programmed for a specific point in flight close to the target where precursor is separated to initiate ERA or maybe also APS of the target before main rod will strike it.

 

BTW it seems that these wires are not misinformation, an HE round with programmable fuze presented at Eurosatory next to this APFSDS also had such wire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On ‎2017‎/‎01‎/‎21 at 10:51 AM, lavictoireestlavie said:

Are these images from a CIA report really authentic? :

 

(SNIP)

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91B00390R000300220014-8.pdf

 

They have to be taken with a grain of salt. The document says it was "declassified in part" (and they come from the CIA, which isn't exactly a world-renowned tank expert), so there is a chance the schematics are very simplified or lack the real-life minutiae for the sake of a clear presentation. The plans, however, do show a Chobham armor-type plate array consistent with the British documents that show the Type 2 Chobham armor pack meant for the Chieftain (Type 1 was a glacis extension with internal sandwhich plates).

 

K9aJO0B.jpg

 

But the schematics are obsolete, since they point to the early Abrams, which still had BRL-1/2 armor. The Army now has Heavy Armor Package (the SEP v2 has the 3rd-gen variant, AKA HAP-3), which are actually steel-encased spaced/special armor boxes (complete with DU meshes and backplates) inserted into the armor cavities (turret "cheeks" and sides, hull front). They can be reportedly be removed as a whole rather than opening the cavities and then inserting the steel plates one by one (edit: I stand corrected, it's actually possible to slide the plate array in) as the CIA report shows.

 

There's also a good chance the plate mounts at the back of the cavities have also been eliminated or seriously reduced in size, thus allowing the engineers to insert more composite plates or even the rumored DU backplate.

Edited by Renegade334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the armor design is always constantly evolving. Heck there are now some suspicions that the M1A1's armor array was completely different than the one used in M1. Some sort of blind spot is M1IP, because either it used the same armor type as M1, just with thicker turret front, or used the same armor array as M1A1. It's unclear which theory is closer to the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the DU package is not a rumour. the M1A1 HA was the first tank with DU armour, and it can be verified by the turret serial number. it has an extra "u" at the end, for uranium. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Does anyone know what version/demonstrator was this?

 

M1A2_weldon_2.thumb.jpg.16f99f5afee477510bf1fdfa4ddd3945.jpgM1A2_weldon_1.jpg.f0fa9c69bb045174b5d7299c11cdae18.jpg

 

Was it a technological demonstrator/welded-on weights for the HAP-2 on SEPv2 in the same way as ECP-1/SEPv3 has those 50mm welded-on plates, or just some experimental mod?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Does anyone know what version/demonstrator was this?

 

M1A2_weldon_2.thumb.jpg.16f99f5afee477510bf1fdfa4ddd3945.jpgM1A2_weldon_1.jpg.f0fa9c69bb045174b5d7299c11cdae18.jpg

 

Was it a technological demonstrator/welded-on weights for the HAP-2 on SEPv2 in the same way as ECP-1/SEPv3 has those 50mm welded-on plates, or just some experimental mod?

 

Weight simulators for some armor improvements in M1A2SEPv2. It's possible that 3rd generation HAP armor might had some interim upgrades over the time during vehicles service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now