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"Sagger drill"


munckmb

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MG fire at 3000 meters might not be effective at killing the target, but all you need is for the gunner guiding the missile to go "OH @#$! HE'S SHOOTING AT ME!" and jerk the controller...

 

Zig zaging may have been a good idea when the frontal armor was not able to stop the HEAT charge.  Now I suggest squaring up the frontal armor since it's probably pretty resistant, and you'd rather take the hit on the front than the side.

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True, I did some tests an found that the ai could be more aggressive with the OF-29 frag rounds, range is 4000 meters and it is very devastating for ATGM teams. However, they are hardly used even when atgm teams are detected. Further more, if 1 unit from a platoon gets engaged or even destroyed by spotted teams, the other tanks do not react, even popping smoke would be very good I think.

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Sagger Drills, from a US Perspective, are accomplished by driving in a manner that emphasizes aggressive turns and varying speeds. The purpose is to force the ATGM to make large corrections in their tracking, thereby either having them miss completely, or causing the missile to break free from its wire guidance. I don't know if the AI can accomplish this on their own, but I have used Sagger Drills in game, and they do work. 

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Sagger drills work reasonably well ... against Sagger missiles. These missiles are slow (about 100...130m/sec), they have a relatively prominent smoke trail, and in their first generations were entirely manually flown, which makes them difficult to steer on a target with irregular movement.

 

Steel Beasts lets you play the semi-automatic guidance version which came only about a decade later. It's much harder to evade missiles that are faster (most are), more agile (a function of both the guidance system and the missile's maneuverability), and less easy to observe. Still, it's pretty much all that you have when you're in a tank at the receiving end.

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Well, there were no simulators back then, and the Russians figured that training missiles would cost about 90% as much as a real missile but would require a separate production line, so their solution was to train missile gunners with live missiles. Lots of them. I think you needed on average about 100...120 missiles to qualify as a competent Sagger operator. You must be careful of overswings when correcting the missile flight - otherwise you ground it. You can't make too rapid maneuvers - or the guidance wire breaks and you lose the missile. etc. ...

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On 8/25/2016 at 1:38 AM, Marko said:

I heard the Egyptian sagger teams trained hard and fired many missiles before Yom Kippur war.

Also the Israeli crews found there tanks covered in guidance wires from zig zaging to try to avoided them.

Post battle.

 

An Egyptian Sagger team launching a missile is shown in the following video, between 0:17 and 1:13:

 

The Egyptian infantry divisions defended their bridgeheads relying on massive quantities of AT weapons (in addition to tanks, artillery and hasty-laid mines) of many types: RPGs, B-10 & B-11 RRs, Sagger (portable launchers, BRDM-2 AT & BMP-1) & Shmel ATGMs (GAZ-69 based launchers), D-44 & BS-3 guns, SU-100s, AT hand grenades, etc. 

 

I read about a drill developed by a Centurion battalion in the Golan height after two encounters with Syrian Saggers in August - October 1972 (losses: a metal biscuit box mounted on a Centurion's front hull and a jeep's antenna): One tank was watching for Saggers while two others were engaging the enemy. I guess it could work if the Sagger wasn't launched at the observer tank and if the enemy's position was known or estimated correctly. More advanced missiles made that drill obsolete. 

Edited by Iarmor
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'The Tank Hunter', a short Egyptian propaganda movie:

 

 

Following the Six Day War, the Egyptian conscripts, most of whom were illiterate peasants (fallahin), had been criticized for their alleged inability to operate advanced weapons. This movie, filmed after the Yom Kippur War, glorifies the Egyptian fallahin who were trained to operate the AT-3 Sagger missile and did so successfully in combat.

 

The soldiers interviewed are from the 112th infantry brigade, 16th infantry division, 2nd field army. Among the destroyed Israeli tanks shown in the movie, the M60A1 is identifiable by its turret number, 8134, seen on 1:21. It's tank no. 817697, that belonged to the 2nd platoon leader, L company, 410th battalion, 600th armored brigade, 143rd armored division. This tank was destroyed around here on the afternoon of October 9th 1973, while attacking the entrenched Egyptian 112th infantry brigade troops. The gunner and the driver were captured by the Egyptians. The platoon leader and the loader were killed and their remains were found near the tank on February 1974, when the Israeli army scanned the Egyptian-held area for MIAs (following the January 1974 disengagement agreement).

 

BTW, a simulator for the Sagger missile did exist, mounted on a ZiL-157 truck. See 13:39 in the movie. Several such simulators were captured by the Israeli army during the war and were put into use along with the captured Sagger missiles.

Edited by Iarmor
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On 8/26/2016 at 4:41 PM, Iarmor said:

I read about a drill developed by a Centurion battalion in the Golan heights after two encounters with Syrian Saggers in August - October 1972 (losses: a metal biscuit box mounted on a Centurion's front hull and a jeep's antenna): One tank was watching for Saggers while two others were engaging the enemy. 

 

Correction and details, according to an official IDF report from August 1973:

 

The aforementioned skirmishes occurred between November 1972 and February 1973. There were 3 major skirmishes, on November 9th, November 21st and January 9th.

Both sides employed tanks (Shot Cal vs. T-54 and SU-100), artillery and fighter jets. The Syrians also employed AT guns and, for the first time, Sagger ATGMs (which the IDF have already met in the Suez Canal in 1970). All in all, 3 Israeli tanks were hit by Saggers (additional ones were hit by other munitions).

 

The first Sagger launch was spotted by the IDF during the November 21st skirmish, near Stronghold 105 in the northern Golan Heights sector.

 

Following intelligence reports, the IDF had prepared for a wider use of Saggers towards the January 9th skirmish. One tank in every platoon was appointed as a 'missile observer' and the Syrian positions were to be pounded with artillery fire.

During the January 9th skirmish, the Syrians launched around 30 Saggers in the northern sector and some 6-7 in the southern sector. Two Israeli tanks were hit by Saggers:

In the northern sector, near Stronghold 105, tank no. 814142 was scratched in the rear hull. Shown on page 53.

814142.jpg

 

In the southern sector, near Stronghold 115, tank no. 814152 was penetrated in the gun mantlet. The gunner was lightly injured and the main gun went inoperative. Shown on page 55.

814152.jpg

 

Unexploded missile remnants are shown on page 57.

AT3.jpg

 

Lastly, a minor skirmish occurred on February 15th, during which 5 Saggers were launched in the southern sector (from around Abdin) and one Israeli tank was hit. The biscuit box mounted on the tank's front hull was destroyed.

Edited by Iarmor
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