To shoot or not to shoot that is the question.

[Marko]

Here's a topic I am finding interesting some of you guys mite as well regarding rules of engagement/ firing procedures.

Started on sim HQ with a video posted showing a Friendly fire incident in a SB mission.

I have on a few occasions fired with out ID.ing my target in a MP events I even managed to fire on a friendly supply convoy thinking it was Ural trucks with troops in them

Because I lost situational awareness and  Became disoriented it was a night mission did not help.

 

If this topic hits home to any member for any reason PM me I will delete the topic.

 

 

 

 

 supply

 

 

Posts: 701 Same battle, filmed by one of the light recon teams:   _________________________ nec cupias, nec metuas official steelbeasts website www.steelbeasts.com Panzerbataillon 911(v) Webseite www.steelbeasts.org Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296102 - Yesterday at 05:36 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] marko1231123 Member Registered: 04/22/13 Posts: 1659 Enjoyed viewing that Ronin The weather effects were very atmospheric What happened with the friendly fire incident did the call sign responsible think he was firing at a BTR. Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296144 - Yesterday at 10:15 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] Ronin_GE Member Registered: 05/24/11 Posts: 701 First i have to say these where very good shots!! Hitting a mover in such weather conditions at over 2800m is an achievenent...bugger it hit the wrong target. Yeah...4 wheels, rain, blurry TIS picture...#%&*$# happens esp when the SA is not perfect. _________________________ nec cupias, nec metuas official steelbeasts website www.steelbeasts.com Panzerbataillon 911(v) Webseite www.steelbeasts.org Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296151 - Yesterday at 10:55 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] marko1231123 Member Registered: 04/22/13 Posts: 1659 Originally Posted By: Ronin_GE First i have to say these where very good shots!! Hitting a mover in such weather conditions at over 2800m is an achievenent...bugger it hit the wrong target. Yeah...4 wheels, rain, blurry TIS picture...#%&*$# happens esp when the SA is not perfect. Indeed, an easy mistake to make especially looking through a thermal sight at that range. The Silhouette of the BTR and the luchs are very similar. Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296256 - Yesterday at 06:28 PM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] Ssnake Virtual Shiva Beast Hotshot Registered: 12/16/99 Posts: 6310 Loc: Germoney I disagree ... KNOWING that friendly eight-wheeled vehicles are forward of your position ... KNOWING that thermals give a less than perfect picture ... KNOWING that a Luchs can easily be mistaken as a BTR (or a Piranha, or an XA 360, or...) Even IF assuming the worst, a BTR at 2km range doesn't pose a threat big enough to warrant a dubious engagement because "you couldn't afford waiting for better ID". I'm all for going easy on people making honest mistakes - but here it simply was bad judgement by a trigger-happy player. _________________________ Visit the home of Steel Beasts! ...the ultimate armor sim... Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296273 - Yesterday at 08:50 PM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ssnake] marko1231123 Member Registered: 04/22/13 Posts: 1659 Originally Posted By: Ssnake I disagree ... KNOWING that friendly eight-wheeled vehicles are forward of your position ... KNOWING that thermals give a less than perfect picture ... KNOWING that a Luchs can easily be mistaken as a BTR (or a Piranha, or an XA 360, or...) Even IF assuming the worst, a BTR at 2km range doesn't pose a threat big enough to warrant a dubious engagement because "you couldn't afford waiting for better ID". I'm all for going easy on people making honest mistakes - but here it simply was bad judgement by a trigger-happy player. May be its time to start simulating ID/IFF panels in game. Yes following stricter rules of engagement mite also reduce to risk of friendly fire incidents. Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296289 - Today at 02:05 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ssnake] Ronin_GE Member Registered: 05/24/11 Posts: 701 Originally Posted By: Ssnake I disagree ... KNOWING that friendly eight-wheeled vehicles are forward of your position ... KNOWING that thermals give a less than perfect picture ... KNOWING that a Luchs can easily be mistaken as a BTR (or a Piranha, or an XA 360, or...) Even IF assuming the worst, a BTR at 2km range doesn't pose a threat big enough to warrant a dubious engagement because "you couldn't afford waiting for better ID". I'm all for going easy on people making honest mistakes - but here it simply was bad judgement by a trigger-happy player. A couple of counterarguemenr: -had this been a training-ex-sim, I'd have some harsh words for the soldier. As we where playing... -he was a first time player. I bet he will not make that mistake again...this shows the value of SB as training tool!!! -We've got to cut the players some slack here. After all, SB's AI would not hesitate to take even more obscure shots. Therefor players are more on their heels...and if in doubt, shoot quickly _________________________ nec cupias, nec metuas official steelbeasts website www.steelbeasts.com Panzerbataillon 911(v) Webseite www.steelbeasts.org Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296303 - Today at 03:42 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] Ssnake Virtual Shiva Beast Hotshot Registered: 12/16/99 Posts: 6310 Loc: Germoney Sure... in GAMES sh!t like this happens, and it's okay to happen. In training, it may happen once, and would then be a talking point during the AAR. In real life - not good. Now, confession time: I have secretly been waiting for this incident since when I was at tank platoon leader's course (early 1990s) when I created a decision-making exercise for the rest of the class showing an eight-wheeled green and black (pseudo-)thermal slide in crosshairs for two seconds, then asking "Shoot or no shoot?", within the context of a rearward passage of lines of armored recce in hot pursuit by a motorized rifle regiment, with predictably split opinions. When adding the Luchs to Steel Beasts, I knews that it was only a matter of time until this would happen. _________________________ Visit the home of Steel Beasts! ...the ultimate armor sim... Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Email Post Contact the Moderator

#4296306 - Today at 04:19 AM Re: Recon at work (Steelbeast Video) [Re: Ronin_GE] Ronin_GE Member Registered: 05/24/11 Posts: 701 Well hopefully one day we can see the opposit effect in SB too. That I have a reasonable chance to drive by the enemy T-80(AI control) and get trough with "wave and smile" because he mistakes me for a BTR. Maybe with SB 7.003 😆

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[Marko]

It mite be a good training exercise if a scenario was created where you had to make a shoot or not decision

Where you have long range targets where you only have a minimal silhouette in poor weather conditions in thermal mode to fire on

[Gibsonm]

We have a Battle Run mission like that where friendly units (ASLAV) and neutral (civilian ambulance) are in the mix along with enemy units.

[Maj.Hans]

Not saying that this kind of thing is always appropriate, but while playing a flight simulator I've totally yelled "EVERYBODY ON THIS CHANNEL IS TO TURN ON ALL OF THEIR LIGHTS AT THE COUNT OF THREE!  ONE!  TWO!  THREE!  OK LIGHTS OFF, THIS GUY DIES!" in the middle of a very confusing night time furball...

[Mirzayev]

Several times during that exact mission, my Platoon had several targets that we couldn't PID visually. I gave out guidance to only shoot at targets that could be PIDed, so that prevented anyone in my Platoon from firing at what was often a friendly reconnaissance element. Also, I make it a point when acting as a PL to continuously update my Platoon on where our friendly and enemy forces are, and at what direction and distance to expect our most forward friendly element.

 

I firmly believe that level of communication was absolutely vital to prevent fratricide. 

 

Also, making sure that everyone knows what types of vehicles the enemy is going to be deploying will help with PID. If you know the enemy is a Mech Infantry Regiment with T-64s and BMP-2s, you know what you are looking for, and can take a bit more time in deciding to shoot or not shoot anything that doesn't look like the two aforementioned vehicles.

 

 

 

[Marko]

42 minutes ago, Maj.Hans said:

Not saying that this kind of thing is always appropriate, but while playing a flight simulator I've totally yelled "EVERYBODY ON THIS CHANNEL IS TO TURN ON ALL OF THEIR LIGHTS AT THE COUNT OF THREE!  ONE!  TWO!  THREE!  OK LIGHTS OFF, THIS GUY DIES!" in the middle of a very confusing night time furball...

Don't think that would work with armour.

although the Israelis did something similar by turning there lights off or was it on, cant remember the exact but It worked

Out well for them .

 

I wonder if recognition panels could be modded and placed on recon vehicles.

I seem to remember somebody put an orange type tarp on a model once  but I am not sure if they were just for show.

Or if there's away to change a vehicles signature using a panel in thermal view in SB.

 

[Maj.Hans]

4 minutes ago, Marko said:

Don't think that would work with armour.

although the Israelis did something similar by turning there lights off or was it on, cant remember the exact but It worked

Out well for them .

 

I wonder if recognition panels could be modded and placed on recon vehicles.

I seem to remember somebody put an orange type tarp on a model once  but I am not sure if they were just for show.

Or if there's away to change a vehicles signature using a panel in thermal view in SB.

 

 

I recall reading a while back an American unit in the Gulf War used to call "Iceberg" over their radios.  Everyone was supposed to stop moving and stop scanning.  Anything still moving was then thought to be enemy, and could promptly be lit up.

 

A more practical application of "Turn all your lights on" might be "Everybody in a Luchs, stop driving, max elevation, and one spin on the turret please."

 

It doesn't positively identify a potential target as enemy, but if you're tracking a friendly and he complies at least you can be satisfied that you aren't about to ignore an enemy.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Maj.Hans

[Mirzayev]

3 minutes ago, Marko said:

Don't think that would work with armour.

although the Israelis did something similar by turning there lights off or was it on, cant remember the exact but It worked

 

 

You could modify it a bit. If in doubt, have friendly units in the area rotate their turrets to a certain direction, or have their vehicle turn in a 360 circle; anything that is out of the ordinary and can be recognized at a distance.

 

Having the option to add something like VS-17 (or better yet, VS-21) panels to vehicles would certainly be a great solution.

[Ssnake]

Ordering unusual behavior can help to sort out confusion, but only with human players, and only if they actually pay attention. So, failure to comply still is no "proof" of being hostile. In the end, only situational awareness will help you - and the computer-controlled units of Steel Beasts who won't shoot non-enemies, ever, unless they happen to drive into the line of fire during an engagement.

 

In this specific case my points of concern were that the mix of BTRs and Luchs vehicles in a scenario where Luch vehicles are supposed to operate forward of own troops (but within shooting distance) are an OBVIOUS case of mistaken identification, so every player should know to apply EXTRA care to avoid a blue on blue incident.

[Marko]

47 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

 

 

 

Also the VEC-M1 can look like a BRDM-2 from certain angles in thermal view

 

 

[12Alfa]

And the thread about seeing a blob out at 3000m and shooting...................................................................

[Marko]

4 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

And the thread about seeing a blob out at 3000m and shooting...................................................................

Well they have all these sighting systems capable of seeing out to incredible distances depending on terrain

but no IFF system that I know of anyway. I know the technology exists the soviets had a system so there radar controlled AA guns Would not engage there own aircraft

Much to the annoyance of the Chechen's I believe

Plus there's BVR missiles been developed that can prioritise targets what's the point in spending xxxx to destroy a Ural truck. IFF will be a big issue in future conflicts as engagement rangers will far exceed what they currently are,

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Marko

[MDF]

Ironically, Friendly ID was activated for this mission.  But if the shooter was a new guy, I certainly wouldn't expect him to know about this feature, let alone remember to use it in a pressure situation.

[Marko]

40 minutes ago, MDF said:

Ironically, Friendly ID was activated for this mission.  But if the shooter was a new guy, I certainly wouldn't expect him to know about this feature, let alone remember to use it in a pressure situation.

Probably target fixation played a part,

 I am certainly guilty of it,

 Be it the desire to score some kills or staying to long in a defensive position after your opfor has spotted your tank

 And started to engage you in. knowing when its time to pull back is a skill in its self.

[Maj.Hans]

13 hours ago, MDF said:

Ironically, Friendly ID was activated for this mission.  But if the shooter was a new guy, I certainly wouldn't expect him to know about this feature, let alone remember to use it in a pressure situation.

I don't think I've ever played with that.  How does it work?

 

ETA: Just because you can't positively ID a target as friendly or enemy doesn't mean you don't get to do anything about it.

You can still call for smoke from your artillery to screen them out.

 

If you're Blue, WP smoke will prevent most of Red's forces from lighting you up.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Maj.Hans

[MDF]

In the 3D world, you press (I think) Shift and a little crosshairs appears in the center of your field of view.  Place the crosshairs over the target of interest and, if it's friendly, its call sign appears.

 

In principle, this would be a decent stand-in for vehicle recognition panels and vehicle/platoon/company identification markers, which are currently lacking from the sim.  The problem is that the Friendly ID feature works out to at least 2200 meters, which is (I think) way too far to be able to discern individual vehicle markings.  So, in practice, it tends to eliminate the possibility of fratricide to an unrealistic degree.  For that reason, I don't activate it in any missions I create.