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Japo32

Tell A.I. gunner or crew where is the enemy position

31 posts in this topic

Hello, I was wondering in the general discussion if I could tell my A.I. Gunner from the M1A1 CWS position a contact direction, and a user told me not. The only way was to pickup the tower with palm switch and carry it where I was looking, loosing a lot of time. The normal way, as we can do in multicrew positions in Multiplayer is tell the A.I. where the enemy is seen from our TC view. It would be nice to add a function in SteelBeast, to tell the AI that I have a contact as TC at the direction I am looking (with CWS, binoculars or just by eye outside or in the periscope). Not only for the M1A1 but every vehicle. If in multiplayer I can say to my gunner in multicrew positions "contact 2 o'clock", I should be able to do it in SteelBeast 4.xx to my A.I. crew. I know I can tell him to scan front, right or left.. but maybe not the rear, or other "clock" positions.

I think it would be nice to be adden in future update.

 

Thanks!

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You can hit "E" to make the whole platoon orient into your current viewing direction, when you have eyes on the enemy. The vehicles will stop and then start searching for a hull-down position. While they do so, hit Shift+Arrow up to make the gunner scan the front. That will minimize his time to find the target.

If you don't want to stop for the firing engagement, well, hit "W" once (or several times) again to accelerate to the desired speed level.

 

To make units generally aware of an enemy unit's presence, this works best while stationary, hold shift, then press the Lase button. A blinking red star will appear in the center of your view. Guide the view on a target, release the lase button. You have "tagged" the target in "reconnaissance mode" and entered the unit into the list of targets that count as "spotted", which means that every computer-controlled unit (and the computer control logic, as far as events and conditions in the mission script are concerned) is now aware of their presence, and will devote more time observing in that direction.

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I understand what you say... but it doesn't work for me. IN the M1A1 TC exercice to tell the gunner contacts, the gunner takes one tank and he stay with that one, unless I press palm switch and point over other. I know that method. But if I want to use the CWS to view other thing than the gunner is looking at, and see other tank which I think is more important target, if I press the E, because the gunner is "glued" with previous tank he won't turn where I am looking.

Also I cannot press laser on CWS as there is not.. so I don't know how to work with that.

 

I just wish to have a simple key when I press it I tell the gunner: "tank" or whatever it would be, and the gunner, even if he had a contact already would turn his gun in my direction. That is what I would do in this M1A1 tank "Gunner! Tank 3 o'clock" and the gunner would turn the cannot at 3 and if he see it, would say.. "seen" and me Fire. The same as we have a key to say "column" "line" etc.. Would be nice this one.

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The CWS sight is not meant to be used as a periscope. In fact it's counter productive to do so as the gunner stops moving the turret so the commander can properly aim the unstabilized CWS.

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Watching the video I think he moves the CWS while the gunner is moving of firing the cannon or the gun. I don't know why in SteelBeast each time I move the CWS the cannon stops moving. I know that if he moves the CWS is moved with him.. but I can manage it.. or if I would need it with an instruction like "stop scan" I could order to stop the tower.

Everytime I move the CWS the gunners spends 20 seconds or so to start moving again scanning.

And also is clear to me in that video that there is communication between all the crew. That is why I ask to include a "enemy at my sight" of the TC to the A.I. gunner, or gunner to A.I. TC. But this is not only valid for the M1A1 but any vehicle we are in. It would be a nice addition to control the A.I. in my little personal opinion.

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1 hour ago, Japo32 said:

I know that if he moves the CWS is moved with him

 

19 hours ago, Rotareneg said:

The CWS sight is not meant to be used as a periscope. In fact it's counter productive to do so as the gunner stops moving the turret so the commander can properly aim the unstabilized CWS.

.

1 hour ago, Japo32 said:

That is why I ask to include a "enemy at my sight" of the TC to the A.I.

 

On 16/12/2016 at 11:45 PM, Ssnake said:

You can hit "E" to make the whole platoon orient into your current viewing direction, when you have eyes on the enemy. The vehicles will stop and then start searching for a hull-down position. While they do so, hit Shift+Arrow up to make the gunner scan the front. That will minimize his time to find the target.

If you don't want to stop for the firing engagement, well, hit "W" once (or several times) again to accelerate to the desired speed level.

.

The functionality that you want is already in the game, you just have to learn how it works, and accept the limitations of the vehicle. Use the M1A2 if you prefer high tech hunter/killer gadgetry :)

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On 17/12/2016 at 5:56 PM, Bond_Villian said:

The functionality that you want is already in the game, you just have to learn how it works, and accept the limitations of the vehicle. Use the M1A2 if you prefer high tech hunter/killer gadgetry :)

I must be missing something, because right now I am in a Lepard with similarities with the M1A1 and in the TC position I have something similar as the CWS but this time I can rotate it while the gunner is rotating it. If I press E to make the gunner look where I am looking he do not. What the tank does is look the TANK to that point where I am looking, but NOT the gunner, that for me is important, because I want to point him (A.I.) something.

Yes.. I could press the E, and then say him shift+up arrow to scan the front, but If I just don't want to move the tank direction but only the tower, I don't find how without entering the gunner or pressing the palm switch

Edited by Japo32

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In the Leopard 2 you have a primary stabilized periscope, not an unstabilized HMG sight. It's an entirely different thing. If you want to designate a target, just hit "arrow up" (no shift), and the turret will slew to your viewing direction. At thet point you can hand over to the gunner (press center mouse button, "P", or joystick button #3), then order him to fire (space bar) - or fire the gun yourself.

 

BECAUSE the HMG sight on the M1's CWS isn't stabilized the (computer-controlled) gunner will stop his scanning movement on the M1 to allow you to aim and fire with the cal .50. SO there's an entirely different concept behind it even if the sights may look somewhat similar. And SB Pro being an accurate simulation, it reflects these differences in the fire control system concept.

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Ok.. I understand what you say. But in the M1A1 there is something it makes me crazy....

The Up Arrow is confusing me on the 17 M1 TC B tutorial. Here it says: "at times, the gunner will spot a target before you, in which case he will say, for example "Tank!" remember, you can line up the TC's eye view to the turret's direction by pressing the joystick hat button up, or by pressing the up arrow key on the keypad or keyboard"

I press the up arrow key.. and I don't line with anything. What is that TC's eye view? because it cannot be the CWS as you said it is not automatic stabilized. 

I have a joystick but the hat up is modified to other key. Which one is the function? Up arrow doesn't work, so maybe I removed. How is the function called? Because I don't see any particular M1A1 in filters. Only M1A2 SEP

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The eye view is when you're not in any of the sights, e.g. looking out of the hatch (=F1 view).

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Then, when I press the up arrow it doesn't look where the gunner has the tank centered as target. Maybe is becasue trackir.

Edited by Japo32

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No.. it is not because trackir. Removed it and when I press the up arrow in that mission tutorial doesn't do anything in any of the multiple positions of the TC. So I don't know if it is a bug, or something I miss. That is because I asked what is the function in the controls to see if it is mapped or not.

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The snap view to the front (arrow up or thumb hat forward) does not work with TrackIR active. And why should it? That would defeat the purpose of TrackIR, which is natural, head-controlled viewing. (You CAN use the snap views to the left/right/back while TrackIR is active ... but that's an unholy abomination against the laws of god and man and imho should be disabled.)

 

I did just test, and the up arrow DOES work as advertised when my TrackIR is PAUSED. So if it's not working for you, you must have a conflicting keymap of some sort going on.

 

I'd suggest forgetting about finding a gamer gimmick to control your views and give orders to your gunner, and just do it like a tanker.

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The nice thing about explorative learning is, it supports multiple paths to the same end point. :)

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I just wanted a key to tell the gunner where the tank or objetive I saw in the periscope, or any view as TC in ANY vehicle, is. No press the E key to face it and then tell the gunner to scan to the front with shift+up arrow. Just tell him. "turn the turret where the enemy is"

anyway....

 

 

Edited by Japo32

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Well, so far nobody managed to explain to me how that would be done in real life if the tank doesn't have such a capability built in. Like a periscope for the commander with an override function. So why should a simulation that attempts to be as accurate as possible in the replication of real-life procedures implement such a function if the real vehicle doesn't offer such a feature?

 

I'm not debating that it would be convenient. Of course it would be! To that extent it's a no-brainer. But if something's difficult in real life, in a good simulation it should be difficult too.

 

Now, if you want a gunner to intelligently respond to your commands - more intelligently than the computer-controlled buddy that SB Pro offers to you - pick a human player, and form a human crew. Then you can issue voice commands just like you would in real life. You will very quickly realize that the gunner can't see much. This year at the I/ITSEC in Orlando we had the opportunity to run Steel Beasts with a small half-dome projector (dimensioned to sit on a desk). That half-dome gives you a 160° field of view, very close to the natural FoV. Just for fun, we implemented the gun sights with the actual field of view on that dome (5°) so you could directly compare how little the gunner can actually see (that, however, in great maginification). Talking a gunner on target is a very time-consuming process. You may find the "E", then order the gunner to scan the front type of keystroke combination cumbersome, but it still is something that works much faster and easier than how things work in real life.

In fact, a lot of the things are easier in Steel Beasts than they are in reality. And whenever we make things realistically cumbersome, people start complaining. I cannot fault anyone without real-life experience for that, mind you. But SB Pro omits a lot of the un-fun things already - failing equipment just because it's unrealiable or badly maintained, endless hours of boredom, ... instead you get mostly kinetic action. You wouldn't believe how stupid some human crews can be. AI crews have trouble with water? So do humans, and they have other problems too. Of course humans are sometimes also much better than computer-controlled units. They are, after all, a substitute.

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I understand your point of view.. but the same you made the "gunner, scan left" "scan center" and "scan right" with Shift+arrow keys.... is the same I am asking. The best system and best weapon in any war (I never was in anyone and hope never be) is communication. So if I would say in real crew multiplayer to my human gunner: "target at 3 o'clock" while he was looking other direction, why not make it in steelbeast with a key as the scan directions feature keys, we have? Sometimes maybe I don't want to move the tank, but yes the turret (for example inside of a dig fixed position in desert)

But is your sim, and your decisions. I can live without that option for sure.. I just wanted to put a little of my energy to make it better. maybe the users here are not missing that or other possible things to put new (as the full replays features, or Dx11 compatibility), but the users that still didn't try SteelBeasts, if we show those new possible features, they would come to join us. 

 

Edited by Japo32

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I'm curious, what's wrong with the real-world target designation procedure with simply involves overriding the gunner and designating the target directly?

Edited by Rotareneg

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41 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

I understand your point of view.. but the same you made the "gunner, scan left" "scan center" and "scan right" with Shift+arrow keys.... is the same I am asking.

 

No, it's not. The gunner has a tank clock, so he can at least estimate scanning from, say, 11 o'clock to 1 o'clockby steering to one position, memorizing a point in the area, then move to the other boundary, and then swing back and forth between these two points.

 

If you see a target in a specific location you need to

a) override the turret and point it at least in the general direction, then talk the gunner on target, or, while overriding, shoot yourself

b) look through a stabilized sight with override capability, and activate the corresponding function

 

The M1A1 only has option a) for you. Therefore, if you spot a target, you must unbutton. Then take control of the turret and move it on target, at least approximately. If necessary, use the primary sight extension to find the target, then shoot (or hand over to the gunner).

 

What you are asking for is a mind-reading interface where the computer-controlled gunner magically knows where your target is. That's just not possible in real life. You may bring up the "E" command now, but that only shows that we were willing to make a compromise once when, in real life, you might announce "Driver, take position, half-right, towards that odd tree" (/bush/whatever is in the approximate direction). So, yes. It's a shortcut. Because you can't replicate everything on a PC. But just because we added a shortcut here does not set a precedence that we're obliged to do it anywhere else.

 

Quote

The best system and best weapon in any war (I never was in anyone and hope never be) is communication.

 

That's a highly dubious statement. Information as such is not a weapon. You don't kill with info. Info helps you to identify and select a target. But I digress.

 

Quote

So if I would say in real crew multiplayer to my human gunner: "target at 3 o'clock" while he was looking other direction, why not make it in steelbeast with a key as the scan directions feature keys, we have?

 

Because it doesn't work like that in real life. "Three o'clock" is WAY too imprecise as a target description. First, the gunner needs to take his eyes off the ocular to watch the tank clock while he's spinning the turret to the 3 o'clock position. Then he needs to go back to the ocular. Unless you are incredibly lucky and the target is RIGHT THERE (which it practically never is, because "3 o'clock" is an arc of effectively 30° width while the gunner may only see 5° of that) the gunner will need to start searching for the target, absent a more precise description.

 

Quote

Sometimes maybe I don't want to move the tank, but yes the turret (for example inside of a dig fixed position in desert)

 

That's why there is an override function, even in the M1A1, as incomplete as it may occur in comparison to the Leo 2A4, or more modern designs.

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Well we have different points of view and you are not going to convince me (yes in some points, of course) and I am not going to convince you. It has been a nice chat anyway and very polite to stand my thoughts.

But as final statement, I would like to see full fps replays and dx11-12 in future, if compatibility with professionals buyers let you do it.

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2 hours ago, Rotareneg said:

I'm curious, what's wrong with the real-world target designation procedure with simply involves overriding the gunner and designating the target directly?

That, or when you have a prepared defence, you have "reference points" designeted for the gunner (thats what the mil-scale on the Mardere's turret ring is for), So as a TC I could call out a ref point and the gunner would know to turn the turret to "1400, E11". Thats more precise. But to model this in SB, You'd need 6400 keybindings for azimuth alone :-P

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I think something has been overlooked in this discussion so far, at least as far as the pre-SEP M1 series is concerned.  In the M1 / M1(IP) / M1A1 / M1A1(HA), the commander, when unbuttoned, can use the override function to slew the turret onto a contact.  In other words, when you're in the commander's F1 view and outside the turret hatch, if you spot a target (in binoculars view or otherwise), press and hold the palm switch ('p') key and move the mouse right or left to slew the turret to the direction of the target.  It's not as precise as the override functionality on the Leos or the SEP, but as long as you can get the target into the gunner's field of view, the gunner is pretty good at identifying targets quickly.

 

I believe this functionality is unique to the M1s, though.

Edited by MDF

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