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lavictoireestlavie

Leo 2A5/6 turret res. 1628 mm KE / 2817 mm CE

Hello Everyone,

 

what do you guys make of these comments from an former  soldier that happens to have had access to the operational manuals of the Leopard 2A1, 2A4, and 2A6:

 

           " allright LEO 2A5/6

             the real protection on the turret is listed:

             against CE 1628mm

             against HEAT 2817mm

             TOW2 missles can pen the turrent front by 20mm

             thats all im going to say. the Leo2A1-4 is way weaker"  - former soldier

 

He also said that the DM53/63 is able to penetrate 900+ mm of RHAe and that the turret of a Leopard 2A5/A6 was penetrated.

 

Any educated guesses and/or feedback on what these comments could mean would be greatly appreciated. Thanks !

 

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Can you ask what manual* this "former soldier" is refering to? ...so I can have a good laugh :D

 

*(ask for an HDV or TDV number)

Edited by Grenny

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13 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Can you ask what manual* this "former soldier" is refering to? ...so I can have a good laugh :D

 

*(ask for an HDV or TDV number)

 

A screenshot of his desktop he sent me:

Unbenannt.thumb.JPG.724efe214b698a0a3962c459cadc4ebf.JPG.536109d0eea7ba808a018dc704a0fba0.JPG

 

I also asked him about the weight of the wedge shape modules on a leopard 2A5/A6. I told him that i heard that they weight about 3 tons each.   He replied saying  that they weigh 3.25 tons each.¬¬

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I can name a folder_ "super secrit documents" too...seems legit xD

Edited by Grenny

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lemme guess?  1.71 rumor roundup WT forums? :D

 

 

Edited by Kev2go

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8 hours ago, Kev2go said:

lemme guess?  1.71 rumor roundup WT forums? :D

 

 

Close enough. He is a WT forum member. I was having a conversation concering the Leopard 2 and he ended up stating that the Leopard 2A5/2A6 has

a resistance of  KE 1628mm and CE 2817mm.

 

What makes me doubt this value; besides  that it is absurdly high, is that he states values down to the millimeter. Who would bother ,even in a professionally prepared ballistics report, to give these values down down to millimeter? I would expect a range of values (e.g. 700 - 750 mm) representing an plausible estimate, since in these cases there will always be some kind of variance.

 

He also stated that the combat weight of the Leopard 2A1, 2A4 and 2A6 is 53, 56 and 63 metric tons respectively according to his documents.  As far as i know the Leopard 2A1 has a combat weight of about 55.15- 55.4  tons, the 2A4 56,5 tons and 2A6 around 61 tons.

 

The other issues is that he states that one of the armor wedges of a Leopard 2A5/A6 weigh 3.25 metric tons. Looking at images from disassembled and labelled German and Dutch Leopard 2A6s, a wedge weighs between 500-600 kg. After some 3D modelling  I determined A non-hollow steel wedge of the same size would weigh about 2.2 metric tons. 

 

He also stated that the DM53/63 can penetrate 900+ mm of armor point blank and that that the turret of a Leopard 2A5/A6 was penetrated using this ammunition. Weirdly enough, I had some other "former dutch soldier" also state the DM53 / DM63 can pen 900+ mm of armor.

 

I am not totally sure whether or not to accept or dismiss anything this guy is saying. What do you guys think?

 

 

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I would dismiss it, even if he is a former soldier, or even active duty, I seen a lot of such guys running amock in a fantasy world.

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A soldier active/retired can be prosecuted in most countries for revealing restricted tactical information.

 

For Example:

Try asking Mr Gibsonm for such tactical details on the Aus M1

or

Herr Grenny for Tactical details on the Marder / Puma

 

They'll both tell you "Um....No."

 

:)

 

WT and other forums members like to claim they're serving/former serving as they think it lends kudos to their claims.

They may actually be serving members, but like I said if they reveal actual figures that have been classified, well, they're in a world of sh*t.

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13 hours ago, lavictoireestlavie said:

Close enough. He is a WT forum member.

 

I don't know why you're willing to waste your time with fruitless nerd battles, but I guess you have your reasons.

 

 

Quote

What makes me doubt this value; besides  that it is absurdly high, is that he states values down to the millimeter.

 

Exactly. This is a dead giveaway that

a)

the values are a calculation result, which is useless without knowing the calculation method, or the validity of the parameters that were used in the formula

b)

the guy has no clue what spurious accuracy is; I'm willing the risk to sound arrogant, but I refuse to debate with people who have no understanding of error propagation in estimations. This is a simple heuristic - in most cases such characters either are clueless about even just basic engineering methodology, or they are bullshitters, often both.

c)

as has been suggested, insist that he reveals his sources and names the document from which he's pulling his claims:

  1. I doubt that the document exists in the first place (such figures would simply not be disclosed in a user manual)
  2. If it exists, the figures are either out of context, or classified - in which case he's committing a felony
  3. Most likely he's a bullshitter and will enter evasive maneuver Theta Seven. Might be fun to watch, but watching mosquitos sparkling in an electric bug zapper while sitting on your porch in the dark with a cold beer is probably a more useful way of killing time.

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14 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

A soldier active/retired can be prosecuted in most countries for revealing restricted tactical information.

 

For Example:

Try asking Mr Gibsonm for such tactical details on the Aus M1

or

Herr Grenny for Tactical details on the Marder / Puma

 

They'll both tell you "Um....No."

 

:)

 

WT and other forums members like to claim they're serving/former serving as they think it lends kudos to their claims.

They may actually be serving members, but like I said if they reveal actual figures that have been classified, well, they're in a world of sh*t.

 

 

at the same time does your average Enlisted tanks or even platoon grade officer know the exact composition and exact thickness of the Tank. That in itself seems like a big intel risk

 

All KGB err i mean FSB  ( or other foreign intelligence) guys have to do is Hack thier personal computers,  Get a guy drunk at a local bar for a nice talk, OR if that fails Snag such a guy when hes on vacation ( or in case of a war capture a  crew as prisoner) and after a few days in a dark dark Room theyl know the exact  composition and armor protection RHAE equivalent and penetration values for the ammunition.  

 

AFAIK Tank crews dont go through SERE or arent trained to resist interrogation. These aren't  Tier 1 Special Forces or Government Spooks with such training and possession of TOp level security clearance.

Edited by Kev2go

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As an enlisted tanker I knew the exact composition of our tanks.  Steel.  Enough said, from my perspective.  If I really wanted to know the thickness of the steel I'm sure I could have cobbled together a set of calipers that would have been decently accurate but that is something that never concerned me.  I was much more concerned about not being seen too easily as we rolled across country.  And while we had no formal SERE training it was an often discussed subject, not as much as spot reports or calling for fire, but often enough.

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Awards

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

 

....

 

Exactly. This is a dead giveaway that

a)

the values are a calculation result, which is useless without knowing the calculation method, or the validity of the parameters that were used in the formula

b)

the guy has no clue what spurious accuracy is; I'm willing the risk to sound arrogant, but I refuse to debate with people who have no understanding of error propagation in estimations. This is a simple heuristic - in most cases such characters either are clueless about even just basic engineering methodology, or they are bullshitters, often both.

c)

...

One very evident BS indicator for me: The army has a certain lingo when naming things. And "Betriebsanweisung" is NOT what a manual for any military technical device would be named. At least not in germany, assuming from the german desktop surface, he is german.

 

The Q. for me is, why would anyone go as far as creating some BS files on his desktop, just in order to "win" an interweb discussion. B| There are interessting specimen around ...

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LoL.

 

Think about it.

We're arguing* over an internet argument.

 

:P

 

* Well, discussing, but for the sake of irony.....

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17 hours ago, TSe419E said:

As an enlisted tanker I knew the exact composition of our tanks.  Steel.  Enough said, from my perspective.  If I really wanted to know the thickness of the steel I'm sure I could have cobbled together a set of calipers that would have been decently accurate but that is something that never concerned me.  I was much more concerned about not being seen too easily as we rolled across country.  And while we had no formal SERE training it was an often discussed subject, not as much as spot reports or calling for fire, but often enough.

 

well yea back in the day steel tanks could jujst be measured but not so easy with tanks like the Composite armored that have sophisticated materials sandwiched between various layers of plates or other stuff. Its not as simple as with basic Steel.

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