IS the M111 "Hetz" really a variant of the M735?

[Kev2go]

 Steel beasts site says this:

 

 The Israeli variant of the M735, nicknamed "Hetz". Several M111 rounds were supplied to the Soviets by the Syrians after being captured from the Israelis in 1982, which prompted the addition of a 16mm steel plate for the T-72, and a 20mm steel plate for the T-80, after testing showed it was unable to withstand the round.

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=M111

 

 

IS this really the case? the M111 is a monobloc penetrator compared to the M735. In the Cutaway you can see the M111 looks different the M735. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

compared to M735

 

 

 

I think that's differentiation enough for it to be considered a more unique l in home Design rather than a Variation ( license built  or even  Minor modification of the M735.) Built under a different name

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Kev2go

[Homer]

I don't doubt the claim it's a variant.  If it was an original design, the Isreali manufacturer would have marketed the hell out of that fact. With the exception of the penetrator,  everything else is almost the same designwise.  I don't think the M111 has a monoblock penetrator.  It looks like it telescopes (rod tube penetrator concept) which would help explain its performance vs T-72 frontal turret armor.

 

Also, the SBwiki entry is incomplete and misleading because they did more than just add 16mm more armor to the T-72 glacis.  It doesn't mention the 180mm additional laminate armor under the 16mm plate.

From Armor, Sept-Oct 2006:
The Soviets decided that the best solution was to redesign the glacis of the T-72A MBT specifically to defeat Hetz ammunition. Up until the testing at Kubinka, the T-72 series tanks were protected by a three-layer laminate glacis with an outer layer of high-carbon steel, 80mm thick, a middle layer of "steklotekstolit" or glass-reinforced plastic (GRP), 100mm thick, and an inner layer of high-carbon steel, 20mm thick, for a total thickness of 200mm. The Soviets decided to maintain this alternating steel-GRP-steel laminate design, but increased the number of layers from three to five. The new five layer glacis design had two outer layers of high-carbon steel, two middle layers of GRP, and one inner layer of high-carbon steel. Additionally, the Soviets added a very hard 16mm thick steel faceplate to the outer layer of the glacis. The faceplate is easily identifiable by the two "cookie-cutout" holes cut into the plate to allow it to be placed over the tank's two tow hooks, and welded directly to the outer layer ofthe glacis. For vehicle identification purposes, the faceplate became the defining feature of tanks fitted with this redesigned glacis armor. In effect, the Soviets had very quickly developed a new variant of the T-72, designated the T-72M1 MBT.

[Hedgehog]

3 hours ago, Homer said:

I don't doubt the claim it's a variant.  If it was an original design, the Isreali manufacturer would have marketed the hell out of that fact. With the exception of the penetrator,  everything else is almost the same designwise.  I don't think the M111 has a monoblock penetrator.  It looks like it telescopes (rod tube penetrator concept) which would help explain its performance vs T-72 frontal turret armor.

 

Also, the SBwiki entry is incomplete and misleading because they did more than just add 16mm more armor to the T-72 glacis.  It doesn't mention the 180mm additional laminate armor under the 16mm plate.

From Armor, Sept-Oct 2006:
The Soviets decided that the best solution was to redesign the glacis of the T-72A MBT specifically to defeat Hetz ammunition. Up until the testing at Kubinka, the T-72 series tanks were protected by a three-layer laminate glacis with an outer layer of high-carbon steel, 80mm thick, a middle layer of "steklotekstolit" or glass-reinforced plastic (GRP), 100mm thick, and an inner layer of high-carbon steel, 20mm thick, for a total thickness of 200mm. The Soviets decided to maintain this alternating steel-GRP-steel laminate design, but increased the number of layers from three to five. The new five layer glacis design had two outer layers of high-carbon steel, two middle layers of GRP, and one inner layer of high-carbon steel. Additionally, the Soviets added a very hard 16mm thick steel faceplate to the outer layer of the glacis. The faceplate is easily identifiable by the two "cookie-cutout" holes cut into the plate to allow it to be placed over the tank's two tow hooks, and welded directly to the outer layer ofthe glacis. For vehicle identification purposes, the faceplate became the defining feature of tanks fitted with this redesigned glacis armor. In effect, the Soviets had very quickly developed a new variant of the T-72, designated the T-72M1 MBT.

 

Hmm I wonder how they decide the order of the layers?

I'd have gone VH Steel 16mm - 80mm Base - 50/100mm GRP - 20/80mm HC Steel mid layer - 50/100mm GRP - 20/80mm HC Steel inner layer - (5mm GRP Spall Liner - optional extra)

 

[Homer]

1 hour ago, Hedgehog said:

 

Hmm I wonder how they decide the order of the layers?

 

 

Drinking less alcohol than us probably helps.  Also, reading 1.3.7 Layering in Armor Basics in the SB Docs folder wouldn't hurt either.

[Kev2go]

On 9/21/2017 at 8:27 AM, Homer said:

I don't doubt the claim it's a variant.  If it was an original design, the Isreali manufacturer would have marketed the hell out of that fact. With the exception of the penetrator,  everything else is almost the same designwise.  I don't think the M111 has a monoblock penetrator.  It looks like it telescopes (rod tube penetrator concept) which would help explain its performance vs T-72 frontal turret armor.

 

it does have a monobloc penetrator, and is known as such. And yea its quite the hell of a difference due to normalization against slopes, and thus being able to defeat sloping much better than the composite design of the M735 ( translating in superior penetration  #s agianst angles in comparison)

 

FyI it very clearly says "monobloc" at the Penetrator section at the bottom.

 

 

 

 

Compared to M735 , M111 hetz does have superior Sloped penetration. 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Kev2go

[Kev2go]

On 9/21/2017 at 8:27 AM, Homer said:

The Soviets decided that the best solution was to redesign the glacis of the T-72A MBT specifically to defeat Hetz ammunition. Up until the testing at Kubinka, the T-72 series tanks were protected by a three-layer laminate glacis with an outer layer of high-carbon steel, 80mm thick, a middle layer of "steklotekstolit" or glass-reinforced plastic (GRP), 100mm thick, and an inner layer of high-carbon steel, 20mm thick, for a total thickness of 200mm. The Soviets decided to maintain this alternating steel-GRP-steel laminate design, but increased the number of layers from three to five. The new five layer glacis design had two outer layers of high-carbon steel, two middle layers of GRP, and one inner layer of high-carbon steel. Additionally, the Soviets added a very hard 16mm thick steel faceplate to the outer layer of the glacis. The faceplate is easily identifiable by the two "cookie-cutout" holes cut into the plate to allow it to be placed over the tank's two tow hooks, and welded directly to the outer layer ofthe glacis. For vehicle identification purposes, the faceplate became the defining feature of tanks fitted with this redesigned glacis armor. In effect, the Soviets had very quickly developed a new variant of the T-72, designated the T-72M1 MBT.

 

 

Depends on the Source. Many say 16mm not 20mm.

 

Be it Steven Zagola, Or the GUy from the Tanograd blog based on his research. I see the 16mm source more often than the occiaional 20mm claim. 16mm seems to be the most common agreement 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Kev2go

[Iarmor]