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kgb613

Real Life M1A1 TC, how do they do ?

42 posts in this topic

Hello all, I have a question, how in real life a TC spots target for his gunner ? I understand that in M1A2, the TC has its CITV, so he can scan using it or just put it on automatic mode while doing other thing and when he see something, he slave the gun on what is saying and after that the 5 words procedure start.

But for the M1A1, how they do ? Did they just watch outside with their eyes and binocle and when they saw something they try to move the gun in that proximatly direction or tell to their gunner "tank 2 o'clock 1 kilometer right of a house" and after that the 5 word procedure starts ?

 

Other question. In steel beast and in tank manual that I rode, the "Identify" is used when you see the target that your TC is telling you, but on M1A1 for example, I guess that the TC and gunner are scanning for targets, more than M1A2 because gunner has most the time control of the TIS, I want to say that on M1A1 the gunner is the eyes of the tank when on M1A2 the TC and gunner are the eyes, if a M1A1 gunner see a tank, what does is say ? "Identify tank", "Contact tank", "Tank", what's the word ?

 

M1A1 looks harder to use than the M1A2, because it doesn't have CITV and we have M1A1 and M1A1 (HA) in SB with poor TIS, when today USMC/US Army use M1A1 SA and M1A1 FEP, and I guess these version use better TIS like the M1A2 has.

 

Thank's, sorry for my strange english :)

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If playing as a TC on older tanks that lack CITVs or the Leopard "Peri" don't be so averse to popping you head out of the hatch and scan for targets with your binoculars. An old maxim of Israeli tankers goes something to the effect of "a tank loses 60% of its effectiveness with its commander's hatch buttoned up".

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Note that it was the Israelis who first adopted 360° cameras to allow the commander to remain buttoned up, once that the technology became viable. ;)

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@Ssnake - Does the real Leopard 2 have an override mode similar to the M1/IPM1/M1A1 Abrams?

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2 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

@Ssnake - Does the real Leopard 2 have an override mode similar to the M1/IPM1/M1A1 Abrams?

The model in SB is very true to RL.

Leo2A4 had a better "overide mode" then the M1 models until M1A2

Edited by Grenny

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24 minutes ago, Grenny said:

The model in SB is very true to RL.

Leo2A4 had a better "overide mode" then the M1 models until M1A2

 

I think that "better" is subjective here.

 

The Leopard 2 peri is an outstanding hunter-killer system, and I love to use it any time I am in a static defensive position.

 

With the M1A2 I similarly love to use the peri any time I am sitting still.

 

However, I find that often times when I'm moving and on the attack, I'll be in the unbuttoned view for better ability to search for targets, and in the M1A2 I then put the CITV into one of the GLOS modes so I can override like in the M1A1.

 

What I'm asking is can the Leo2 commander grab a handle and take control like the M1A1 commander can?

If we had access to the Peri functions in all views, I would simply set the commander's sight to go into Peri-To-Gun mode, unbutton, and if I wanted immediate control of the turret, quickly go into Gun-to-peri to point the gun.

 

I actually find the M1A1 override mode quite convenient in situations when I have come over a hill and find myself within high-five distance of a T-72...

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1 minute ago, Maj.Hans said:

 

 

 

What I'm asking is can the Leo2 commander grab a handle and take control like the M1A1 commander can?

 

 

 

Yes.

And you have th sight extension of the gunners GPS, basicly the same as in the M1

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Hmm, it's too bad that we don't have that mode available to us in ProPE.  It may be less accurate but is has it's uses...

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Just now, Maj.Hans said:

Hmm, it's too bad that we don't have that mode available to us in ProPE.  It may be less accurate but is has it's uses...

we have it availble

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Okay I must be missing something.  I thought the TC's controls on the Leo2s only worked when you were inside the tank?

 

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3 minutes ago, Maj.Hans said:

only worked when you were inside the tank?

 

Is there a tank that you can control from the outside?

 

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7 minutes ago, Grenny said:

 

Is there a tank that you can control from the outside?

 

 

As far as I can tell, you can override the following vehicle's turrets while outside:

M1

IPM1

M1A1

M1A2 with the appropriate CITV mode selected

M60A3

M2A2

M3A2

Leopard AS1

Leopard1A5

Leopard1A5DK

Maybe some more?

 

 

Wait do you mean from the F8 view like you're watching from the hover cam?

I'm not talking about the F8 view, I'm talking about when you get in the TC seat and press "Q" to stick your head out of the turret.  On the Abrams and others you can still take control of the turret, but on the Leo2s you can only take control of the Peri or gun from one of the sight views.

Edited by Maj.Hans

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I'm not entirely sure if the ZÜ mode will be canceled if you unbutton. But in any case you can press ZÜ immediately on return to the buttoned position, activate the direct sight adapter (F3), and by the time that you're done with this you can activate KH or KW mode to override the gunner.

 

What you can't do in Steel Beasts is to "shoot (or override) from the hip". While this is technically possible if you contort your body in a sufficiently awkward pose, it is an entirely useless gesture that we therefore chose not to implement at all. What you would REALLY do in a situation as you described is to order the gunner to scan a certain sector (by tank clock direction, relative to the hull position/direction of movement). The closest equivalent in SB Pro is to hit "E" while looking in the direction of your target, then Shift + Arrow up to order the gunner to scan forward, then (if you want to continue moving) W/WW/WWW afterwards.

This increases the chances that the gunner will quickly acquire the target. Once that he has reported the target, hit space to let him fire, and hit C to let the driver resume the old course. Problem solved.

 

The alternative is to jump to the peri view after hitting E and ordering the gunner to scan forward, then to hit Shift+Arrow down to put the Peri into the forward sector. Once there, cancel ZÜ mode and search for your target while, if so desired, leeting the driver to resume to previous course ("C"). You can then hunt for the target while on the move, and eventually override the gunner to either hand over the target, or to miss your first shot when trying to shoot yourself. ;)

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2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

or to miss your first shot when trying to shoot yourself.

¬¬ Why do I have to miss?

 

 

So if it's not realistic to override from outside, how about while looking through the vision blocks?  Also I'm 6'7" (that's like 1.98m tall) so what's awkward for YOU might be a walk in the park for ME!  lol

 

.....No T-72 for me tho...

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I think the taller you are the worse it would be (trying to twist, fit longer arms in, etc.).

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You don't have to miss on your first shot, but most people will when trying to shoot a moving target from a moving Leopard in KH mode, assuming that the range isn't dangerously close and you want to shoot within ten seconds on a fleeting target. Usually the gunner is in a far better position to engage, that's what you have him for.

 

Ar far as your request for the vision blocks are concerned, look no further than to the Leopardo 2E where you have the option to look at a target, pull a wire on the vision block (the hotkey for this may be Shift + Arrow up (or down, I don't remember)), and the peri will rotate to that direction (you can then override the gunner as usual, from there). In principle that could be used as an override signal also for the turret itself, but apparently the Spanish Army didn't opt for this (probably for a variety of reasons, including safety considerations). To me this suggests that most others don't consider this approach of approximative override to be a great timesaver, and I agree with them. If your override isn't spot on, you might just as well forget about it as the gunner tries to identify whatever it was that you saw (unless there's a clear thermal signature). If you have to look through a sight extension to search for your target yourself you could just as well use your own peri before yanking the gunner off from his current activity.

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1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

I think the taller you are the worse it would be (trying to twist, fit longer arms in, etc.).

 

Exactly. Tall people may have longer arms, but they also have longer legs and taller spines. Maintaining a firm grip on the commander's control handle requires some twisting of the right hand's wrist and to bend the whole body sideways - nothing that you can do for a prolonged time. Just dropping into your seat and then going for the target from the turret front position (if you put the Peri into ZÜ mode first, or index position 12 in the 2A5 (and later) TIM) is less painful and just as fast.

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To be fair, you shouldn't be able to traverse the turret when fully unbuttoned, even in the M1 series. when fully unbuttoned your arms are above the external periscopes, and the control stick is on the inside. 

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Well if you are moving tactically with more than your head and shoulders exposed then you are in trouble.

 

The shoulders / upper arms help wedge you into the hatch and still let you use your binoculars above the periscopes / vision blocks.

 

If you have your shoulders "out" and rib cage is in the hole, then your torso has more movement (rattle in the bottle if you like, compared to a snug fit) and are really exposed (for little extra visibility) and even at risk of injury due to relative common incidents, like a sudden stop, etc.

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In any case we're not going to model different body shapes as player avatars, and there will be simplifications that we deem the best possible compromise to reflect real-life procedures and capabilities. For the Leo 2, this is right out, therefore we don't have it in SB. For the M1, it sometimes works, so we enabled it. If you don't like that, don't override while you're unbuttoned. Shooting is going to be pointless anyway wirthout the primary sight extension.

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8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

In any case we're not going to model different body shapes as player avatars

 

You were supposed to take that with a healthy dose of salt since there was lots of sarcasm involved! ;)

 

If I were going to be a stickler for realism, I would never drive the T-72, or ever use the buttoned up view for the TC or gunner, since I'm something like two or three feet too tall to fit inside a vehicle designed for 5'2" tall midget-men.  :P

 

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I can tell you that the turret of the M2A2 ODS-SA Bradley is not meant for a 6' 220 lbs man. I can barely fit my shoulders through the hatch to get "Name Tape defilade", but the TC control handle seems to be built for someone with giant hands. lol

 

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On 7.11.2017 at 9:14 PM, kgb613 said:

when today USMC/US Army use M1A1 SA and M1A1 FEP, and I guess these version use better TIS like the M1A2 has.

 

Not only M1A1SA and M1A1FEP have the same sights as M1A2SEP, but they also received new SCWS commander cupola, this new cupola is fully stabilized and have new day camera instead of optical sight, and additional thermal camera, both with quiet good zoom levels. SCWS cupola can then be used as CITV/PERI substitute.

 

Heck USCM M1A1FEP's will receive upgraded SCWS cupola that will be controlled by the commander control handle "joystick", thus not requiring anymore a commander to spin his body with the cupola, and the image from cupola sights will be displayed on a flat screen in front of commander + cupola will be connected to the vehicle FCS thus allowing true hunter killer.

 

Dunno if M1A1SA's will receive this upgrade, as US Army and ARNG desire is to have a pure fleet of M1A2SEP's.

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20 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

 

Not only M1A1SA and M1A1FEP have the same sights as M1A2SEP, but they also received new SCWS commander cupola, this new cupola is fully stabilized and have new day camera instead of optical sight, and additional thermal camera, both with quiet good zoom levels. SCWS cupola can then be used as CITV/PERI substitute.

 

Heck USCM M1A1FEP's will receive upgraded SCWS cupola that will be controlled by the commander control handle "joystick", thus not requiring anymore a commander to spin his body with the cupola, and the image from cupola sights will be displayed on a flat screen in front of commander + cupola will be connected to the vehicle FCS thus allowing true hunter killer.

 

Dunno if M1A1SA's will receive this upgrade, as US Army and ARNG desire is to have a pure fleet of M1A2SEP's.

Not really, the M1A1 SA and the FEP are completely different from the SEP on the inside. As far as the FCS, the SEP’s FCS is more advanced than the SA and the FEP. The FLIR system is different for all of these as tanks far as software versions. The SCWS  is not part of the Main FCS of the SA and the FEP. It is a separate system integrated only to the sighting systems and FBCB2 system. The Tc cannot perform a designate or enter range into the FCS systems. He can only monitor from the SCWS. 

Edited by Assassin 7

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