What to think of this event?

[Skybird03]

Situation: 3 surviving Leo2A5DK run into 3 T80s at distance 500 and 1 T80 at around 750m. An intense greeting ceremony takes place, after some exchanges of kind words and polite formalities, in which practically all tanks got hit at leats once, all three Leopards are unharmed and all T80s are dead. However, the last T80 died hard. At range 500 he took 10 (ten!) frontal hits of DM33 fired by two Leopards, suffering massive damage and two "crew killed" events (AAR), but not dying before the tenth round found it'S way home.

Is that realistic for that kind of ammo at that close range?

[Ssnake]

The DM33 isn't particularly well suited to deal with the T-80. I see no reason why this couldn't happen. It all depends a lot on where exactly the impacts are. Turret front with K-5? I wouldn't even wish you good luck there, it really is hopeless.

[Volcano]

DM33 vs. T-80 front? Sure, why not. It could take 100 such rounds if you keep hitting them in the wrong place. The "wrong place" from the front is pretty much defined as anything but the mantlet.

[dejawolf]

there's a pretty narrow window of thin armour on the front of the T-80U where it can be destroyed with DM-13, just around the mantlet area.

the design idea is that at longer ranges, the dispersion will be so large that the round will only hit the ERA protected areas.

meanwhile, the T-80 can sit back and engage the enemy with ATGMs and pinpoint accuracy.

[Volcano]

Of course, at the moment, the only thing the T-80's ATGM can engage with pinpoint accuracy is the ground right in front of them... :frown:

[Slith]

I've gotta one-up you.

Just had an instant action game using the Leopard 2E - My main gun took a hit from an ATGM and was disabled, so I decided to ram the enemy. Made it about 15 meters before someone else hit my track and immobilized me.

Then I sat there acting as target practice. The fifth round that hit me killed the TC, after that it wasn't until the 25th-30th round before the tank took any more actual damage. From rounds 30-38 I lost comms, sprung a fuel leak, lost the gunner and driver, and a whole bunch of stuff.

The 39th round FINALLY blew up my Leopard and ended the scenario.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ozm0n0jzi2y - Here's the link to the AAR if anyone's interested.

[KillKess]

That makes me think abou whats wrong with the russian ammo or the armor off the Leopard in the first place....

[Ssnake]

Neither. It depends where you hit. Some surfaces are impervious, others aren't. Hitting those others requires the opponent to be very close, or in a flanking position, or to be plain lucky. The first two options actually are what makes armor interesting. It forces the attacker to move into favorable locations which actually limits his tactical options. That's the advantage that you get out of armor protection.

[Volcano]

That makes me think abou whats wrong with the russian ammo or the armor off the Leopard in the first place....

Uh no. If you are getting hit in the front of a Leopardo 2E (of all things!), then you can pretty much expect to survive. Now whether or not you will be operational after a few hits is another story... and obviously the tank in the example was not operational after the first few hits. There are indeed weak places in the front though, such as the hull below the vehicle's left front headlight where you can possibly hit the hull ammo, but you can forget about even the best KE rounds in the world going through the turret front armor or even upper front hull. The survivability is even more apparent (in the front) when the Leopardo 2E is matched up with tanks using default type late 80s or early 90s ammo.

From the front of the Leopardo 2E it is certainly possible to cause track, driver, maingun, LRF, TIS and TC (from the cupola) damage from repeated hits, but it is a tank that you *MUST* flank or get a well aimed (and a little lucky) shot on to destroy from the front. My guess is, that final shot was into the hull ammo from the front lower hull or you simply had all the crew members killed inside. Think of the Leopard 2E as a King Tiger vs. the Sherman 75 tank type matchup (ok, maybe that is a bad comparison but you get the idea -- you just wouldn't sit in a Sherman 75 firing shots at the King Tiger's front and expect much in the way of results, no matter how bad you *want* results to happen when you make each shot).

Edited April 18, 2009 by Volcano
typos

[GH_Lieste]

Uh no. If you are getting hit in the front of a Leopardo 2E (of all things!), then you can pretty much expect to survive. Now whether or not you will be operational after a few hits is another story... and obviously the tank in the example was not operational after the first few hits. There are indeed weak places in the front though, such as the hull below the vehicle's left front headlight where you can possibly hit the hull ammo, but you can forget about even the best KE rounds in the world going through the turret front armor or even upper front hull. The survivability is even more apparent (in the front) when the Leopardo 2E is matched up with tanks using default type late 80s or early 90s ammo.

From the front of the Leopardo 2E it is certainly possible to cause track, driver, maingun, LRF, TIS and TC (from the cupola) damage from repeated hits, but it is a tank that you *MUST* flank or get a well aimed (and a little lucky) shot on to destroy from the front. My guess is, that final shot was into the hull ammo from the front lower hull or you simply had all the crew members killed inside. Think of the Leopard 2E as a King Tiger vs. the Sherman 75 tank type matchup (ok, maybe that is a bad comparison but you get the idea -- you just wouldn't sit in a Sherman 75 firing shots at the King Tiger's front and expect much in the way of results, no matter how bad you *want* results to happen when you make each shot).

There are usually a few small zones where even an 'impervious' tank can be vulnerable. This is typically true of the cupola area, the turret ring area and any sight hoods/coax/main gun apertures. With careful design, the threat to the tank as a whole can be minimised for hits on sights or the cupola, but there isn't too much you can do about the turret ring or gun apertures.

[ShotMagnet]

at the moment, the only thing the T-80's ATGM can engage with pinpoint accuracy is the ground right in front of them... :frown:

I have in the not-too-distant past pegged a Brad, while moving up a slope, with the T-80 ATGM. Granted, I didn't kill it the first time, but I did hit it and it was more than 'the ground right in front of' me distant.

Maybe something's changed...

Shot

[Volcano]

There are usually a few small zones where even an 'impervious' tank can be vulnerable. This is typically true of the cupola area, the turret ring area and any sight hoods/coax/main gun apertures. With careful design, the threat to the tank as a whole can be minimised for hits on sights or the cupola, but there isn't too much you can do about the turret ring or gun apertures.

Right, the TC damage no doubt came from hitting the cupola and the turret ring on the Leo 2E is covered (at least from the front) by overhanging armor of lower turret. You are right too, there is not much a tank designer can do about vulnerability to gun tubes, gun sights and so on -- even an "impervious" tank can be disabled.

It would make sense that the "top scores" in Instant Action will be achieved in Leopardo 2Es, perhaps we should have given the enemy units all top of thel line ammo to compensate for the overmatch.

[Slith]

Right, the TC damage no doubt came from hitting the cupola

If I recall correctly, I was in the TC's position and unbuttoned, staring at all the enemy tanks through binoculars as they shot at me. Which is probably why the TC got killed so quickly.

[alpha6]

any more actual damage. From rounds 30-38 I lost comms, sprung a fuel leak, lost the gunner and driver, and a whole bunch of stuff.

so you're loader just sat there?