Virtual School

[Yskonyn]

I am a big fan of IL-2 1946 (a WW2 Aerial Combat Simulator) and I can across the 'Joint-Ops School' where student progress through a series of classes in which they have to graduate from a certain class to continue to the higher level class. They cover anything from the very basics to specific aircraft training.

I was wondering how many people would feel a similar thing would benefit their entry into the SB World and how many of the veterans would be interested in teaching and perhaps creating a great mission set / course syllabus?

Take a look here to see how they did it:

http://www.joint-ops.com/php2/index.php

I would very much like a guided course into all aspects that make SB Pro such a great experience. Especially because SB Pro is actually used to train real life personel and its very much fitted to do so. Or should I say programmed for that very purpose?

Please discuss!

[general billy]

SB General's virtual unit offers training for new players.

We have gunnery ranges for gunners and commanders alike.

Daskal has created tank table that mimics the real life range, which can be used as a test or a training platform.

So far from the feedback heard it has been a great way for players to learn the basics and to highlight issues regarding their shooting. A number of players have dramatically improved their gunnery skills only after a member watch them shoot and resolving key errors.

[Mogwa]

Good Grief...

[ChuikovChambered]

Good Grief...

Is it necessary for you to post something like that every time a General posts in a thread? I, personally, say that daskal's work is quite good, and that it could be integrated into Yskonyn's idea.

[GaryOwen]

Having an SB school is something that has been talked about for years now. IRRC, Lonestar actually several years ago put something together where various longtime community members would agree to meet newer members for online training on weekends. I recall that everything posted about that from people who had participated was positive.

I along with a small group met regularly on weekends for several months to do small training scenarios.

Virtual units, when they are able to sustain themselves, have usually had some form of training. The 29th Armored had its gun-camps, Billy's Generals have their gunnery qualification scenario.

The problem here isn't that having a 'tank school' wouldn't be a great idea and benefit to the community, but that the community isn't really large enough to keep something like that going. Furthermore, there has been, since the commercial release of SB1, a debate amongst some of the active community members (sometimes muted, other times at full scream) about whether SB is best played as a game or as a simulator. Any program-of-instruction is going to fall somewhere on either side of that dividing line and will to some extent alienate those of the opposite persuasion.

For my part, I have tried to make available resources that I believe may be helpful at my website: http://www.1stusvcav.com I have tried to logically organize the information to reflect the way I was trained when I served. There is also a wealth of information here at this website. There is a library of field manuals in the downloads section, and there is a wiki that contains years worth of contributions.

Additionally, I am at present working on a series of scenarios that I hope will be helpful for newcomers to SB. Similar to DConrad's 'Tactics 101' scenarios, I am writing a series of scenarios that each address a tactical concept. I am about halfway complete with the series. The first half of the series is posted as my 'Camp Hornfelt' scenarios. They are based on the US Army field manual and mission training plans for tank platoons.

The information that you're asking for is already available here. There is a framework for its presentation. But I am afraid that the community is not large enough to sustain a regular guided course of study.

[Mogwa]

Is it necessary for you to post something like that every time a General posts in a thread? ...

Your a disruptive troll and for the life of me I dont see how you dont get a permanent ban. How about the next time you feel the need troll, you do it somewhere else.

The information that you're asking for is already available here. There is a framework for its presentation. But I am afraid that the community is not large enough to sustain a regular guided course of study.

Agree. Like many other initiatives, it has an initial flurry of interest, then just fades away.

Mog

[Yskonyn]

Thanks for the feedback, especially GaryOwen, thanks.

I suspected as much and I fully understand that the VU's double as training platforms.

However, I think there's a group of individuals, especially newbies, who are a bit intimidated to join a VU. They would like to receive training and get better at what they intend to do with SB, but at the same time keep it without obligations.

Given the size of the community the best idea might be to do as you've already done, or are doing; create a package with a training syllabus which people can download and work through then find someone to start a co-op (if the missions allow of course) and tutor eachother or whatever.

But this dedicated place to go to to receive training would be so cool. Maybe at a future place in time where our community has grown.

[Tacbat]

Other then the provided tutorials, what type of subject matter would you like to see "taught"?

[Yskonyn]

The actual procedures used and tactics employed, for example.

For someone who has never served in the army I find it hard to grasp many of the tactics and ops described on paper so that you can employ them correctly on the battlefield.

Learning while doing works better for me than reading then trying to do it and repeat until proficient.

The difference between having a dedicated virtual school and a VU is the more relaxed expectations of the trainee.

In a virtual school you expect the room to make errors and then learn from them. In a VU on the standard friday night battle, for example, the bar is raised considerably and I wouldn't want to make errors that will loose the battle.

There's a much more fanatic atmosphere during battles than on the training ground I would imagine.

[Ssnake]

Then again it is in any virtual unit's very own interest to school their members, one would presume, at least if they are interested in winning and not just being clowns.

... (with the obvious exception of the ICP, should they ever return) ...

[ShotMagnet]

The good VUs do this, as Gary has pointed out. I'd like to see a virtual tank school myself, but it'd be a biotch to set up and keep rolling.

BattleLabs was in fact closely similar to what we're talking about here, and I've tried get some interest going in that, for that reason.

I think the analysis is sadly correct. Too much interest, not enough players.

Shot

[ashdivay]

Is it necessary for you to post something like that every time a General posts in a thread?

Really i didnt know we had a General Ranking officer in here . Where is he ?

I, personally, say that daskal's work is quite good, and that it could be integrated into Yskonyn's idea.

True , but my exp with that VU is that , they organise missions, they play em, then they go to bed. There is no debriefing, no evaluation of individual performance, nothing.

Also some of the training scenarios are well thought out but lack in other major areas. example - a training scenario by them aims to teach Gunnery and TC coordination. However they removed all the HEAT rounds as "they never seem to hit moving targets from a distance." they said that

this is one such example among others.

However i hope me stating my exp with Gen VU wont be taken in a wrong way.

Regards.

Edited November 25, 2009 by ashdivay
Forgot add a full stop.

[general billy]

True , but my exp with that VU is that , they organise missions, they play em, then they go to bed. There is no debriefing, no evaluation of individual performance, nothing.

So you speak of debriefing huh.

SB Generals have always had debriefings after our games. The question is how much time you want to invest in a good debriefing and the same goes to briefings.

We had people that made mistakes in battle. Is it right for us to say, hey you got your arse kick don’t let it happen again or you be out of the VU. I don’t think so. Do people want to know their mistakes? It’s up to the individual. Some may, some may be even be offended if you start pointing errors in there playing, we all need to respect that people see strategy, and steel beast differently. Some would say our tactics are gamey, some say we mimic real warfare tactics. Neither points I want to debate here but the point is Steel Beast online is basically what you want it to be.

Now back to debriefing.

As you will already know, after each battle we all have an inbuilt AAR system that we all can see and learn from and we are all advised to study and look at it. Who killed you? Where did the kill come from? What went wrong? Stuff like that.

At one stage we used to have debriefings between the CO’s to discuss the game plans each had and what went wrong, only issue with that is the losing side would usually get pissed off and leave if they lost. This is however down to individuals I guess. Many Big Babies around.

SB General's tactics and command skills developed at a cost of defeats and victories through the course of our life as a VU. Our members probably have the most games under their belts then any other VU out there. Our commanders have the experience to lead and co-ordinate successful battles with minimal loses just through our experience as a team.

The only times we looked at our strategy is when things go wrong, when the scenario goes bad for us and we lose perhaps bigtime. Nevertheless for H2H battles that was seldom because we rarely lost. However we have lost games and some I personally blame myself for their bad outcomes. Battles have been lost mainly because I consider myself to be an aggressive general, and sometimes expecting the impossible. And thus resulting on heavy losses on our team. I’ve learnt the hard way that playing a more defensive strategy is a safer bet.

One thing about SB Generals, you can never let the team down by getting killed, but you can let the team down when you not in the team for our battles. Every tank needs a gunner or a commander and that means you are needed and even if you are total newbie there is always room even if its moving our logistic trucks around.

Our senior/core members have the experience to guide and help players if they need help. At one stage we had a teamspeak channel dedicated to training. I know from experience that getting up and running online can be a very daunting experience for some, that’s why we show a keen effort to welcome new players to online sessions and get them up to speed with the game. I see no harm in sending a new player straight into the mist of an H2H battles, that’s pretty much where I started when I first bought Steel Beasts.

True , but my exp with that VU is that , they organise missions, they play em, then they go to bed. There is no debriefing, no evaluation of individual performance, nothing.

If you talking about us Europeans going to bed, remember games can be pretty long 2 hours plus not including briefings and setups and we talking about work next day. Do you really think we want AAR’s debriefings? AAR discussions/debriefings would take place on our forums. The ‘What went wrong’ topics.

Also some of the training scenarios are well thought out but lack in other major areas. example - a training scenario by them aims to teach Gunnery and TC coordination. However they removed all the HEAT rounds as "they never seem to hit moving targets from a distance." they said that

this is one such example among others.

Well your examples are just bull, people have spent time and effort creating scenarios and what do you get people like you that bitch about them. One thing I can say, you will never make everyone happy/ You should appreciate what people have done for the community. Either say good comments or none.

However i hope me stating my exp with Gen VU wont be taken in a wrong way.

Actually, you left SB Generals for the reasons of what? You rushed to create your own VU over a year ago and how many members do you have….zero. All I see is you shagging around teamspeak looking for whoever you can play with.

You always had issues Ashtray, and talking about SB Generals won’t help you resolve those.

[Mogwa]

Is this a discussion of possibly setting up training or another SBg forum meltdown? Anyway, we all know how this will probably end...

[general billy]

Another pointless post by you.

Just like your good grief statement which hardly contibuted to the thread.

My first post was to highlight that we as a VU already do some form of training and gary owen sum it all up on how it is in the world of steel beast community. As we are part of the community and me being a senior member of these forums, I have every right to inform those that are unaware of our virtual unit, even if some dont like it.

[Mogwa]

You speak of pointless posts? A majority of your entire post, sir, was a thinly veiled attack on Ash. While Ash can fight his own battles, I simply highlight that a brief reply in the forums, and your personal differences with Ash handled by PM would have been a better way to go. Responses rife with half truths, innuendo, etc, only hijack threads and usually lead to a lock, or vacations for some of the posters.

Actually, you left SB Generals for the reasons of what? You rushed to create your own VU over a year ago and how many members do you have….zero. All I see is you shagging around teamspeak looking for whoever you can play with.

You always had issues Ashtray, and talking about SB Generals won’t help you resolve those.

You say that your simply informing others of the existence of your group, and I say that public attacks on some of your former members tell every potential member pretty much everything they need to know about the g's. New SB players, take heed, that could be you. Ash left because after the last public meltdown you guys had on the forums, after PzBn 911 finally grew tired of the g's, he felt he didn't want to be associated with the group. OK, big deal. Its one guy. Let it go. Is it any wonder an unoffcial boycott of games with you guys by established, though idle, VUs has existed since day 1?

If you really feel the need to continue this discussion with me, as a courtesy to Yskonyn, please do so via PM.

Mog

[koga]

As leader of the Autobots VU I have to agree with being a need for proper training scenarios. However several tanks driving towards you or driving across your field of view is not what happens during a multiplay session. What usually happens in games is a CV90 platoon or two try to assault your tank platoon thinking they can be used as anti tank units. You might get a lucky shot through the suspension or kill a tank commander but the attacking units get wasted. This is why in my VU I stress the importance of quick draw knife fight like scenarios, not the position yourself in a dug in and shoot a tank 4k away.

[general billy]

You speak of pointless posts? A majority of your entire post, sir, was a thinly veiled attack on Ash. While Ash can fight his own battles, I simply highlight that a brief reply in the forums, and your personal differences with Ash handled by PM would have been a better way to go. Responses rife with half truths, innuendo, etc, only hijack threads and usually lead to a lock, or vacations for some of the posters.

You say that your simply informing others of the existence of your group, and I say that public attacks on some of your former members tell every potential member pretty much everything they need to know about the g's. New SB players, take heed, that could be you. Ash left because after the last public meltdown you guys had on the forums, after PzBn 911 finally grew tired of the g's, he felt he didn't want to be associated with the group. OK, big deal. Its one guy. Let it go. Is it any wonder an unoffcial boycott of games with you guys by established, though idle, VUs has existed since day 1?

If you really feel the need to continue this discussion with me, as a courtesy to Yskonyn, please do so via PM.

Mog

That’s a new one , please resort to Private Messages. So it pretty much means that I need to stop posting on this thread or I look bad? Worst it gets locked, or members may get banned or classed as a troll, having been on these boards for a long time I doubt that.

Perhaps you should have resorted to private messages yourself. You no worst than me.

Anyway from the altitude of your post it seems you have some personal resentment or perhaps jealousy for our VU, but that isnt new from you anyway.

Whatever the case im not here to discuss that that would indeed be another topic resulting in the thread being locked.

So end of discussion with you.

[ChuikovChambered]

You speak of pointless posts?

You're one to talk; your thoughtless dropping of a couple of words was what derailed this thread in the first place.

Continuing...

You say that your simply informing others of the existence of your group, and I say that public attacks on some of your former members tell every potential member pretty much everything they need to know about the g's. New SB players, take heed, that could be you.

Yes, they will take note, of your bull$%!#. And I think they'll take note of who started this derailment.

Continuing...

Ash left because after the last public meltdown you guys had on the forums, after PzBn 911 finally grew tired of the g's, he felt he didn't want to be associated with the group. OK, big deal. Its one guy. Let it go. Is it any wonder an unoffcial boycott of games with you guys by established, though idle, VUs has existed since day 1?

Incorrect. Ash disagreed with us on how we were handling the 911 incident on our forums and misrepresented the VU on this forum. He declared that he couldn't be with with us after what he had said. An previous unofficial boycott never existed, to my knowledge, between the 911 community and us. Billy does have a point, despite his having his own VU now, all Ash seems to do is pop up looking anywhere for a game. As for the Germans and us, all I can tell you right now is that this is a sensitive time right now for relations between the Germans and us, and we don't need you to ruin them.

[daskal]

BACK to topic:

I personally would like to see some professional VIDEO demonstrations & tutorials... - we have the technology & multimedia available so why not use it? Ofcourse this could be coupled with PDF & further types of written documentation / presentation. But it would would be a definite plus if something like this would be included / integrated into lets say SB2 when it comes out...

[ashdivay]

So you speak of debriefing huh.

SB Generals have always had debriefings after our games. The question is how much time you want to invest in a good debriefing and the same goes to briefings.

We had people that made mistakes in battle. Is it right for us to say, hey you got your arse kick don’t let it happen again or you be out of the VU. I don’t think so. Do people want to know their mistakes? It’s up to the individual. Some may, some may be even be offended if you start pointing errors in there playing, we all need to respect that people see strategy, and steel beast differently. Some would say our tactics are gamey, some say we mimic real warfare tactics. Neither points I want to debate here but the point is Steel Beast online is basically what you want it to be.

This point contradicts what you said earlier. Look below.

SB General's virtual unit offers training for new players.

We have gunnery ranges for gunners and commanders alike.

Daskal has created tank table that mimics the real life range, which can be used as a test or a training platform.

So far from the feedback heard it has been a great way for players to learn the basics and to highlight issues regarding their shooting. A number of players have dramatically improved their gunnery skills only after a member watch them shoot and resolving key errors.

However based on with my personal exp, Generals VU never did any of that. Most people improved their skill over time while fighting battles.

Now back to debriefing.

As you will already know, after each battle we all have an inbuilt AAR system that we all can see and learn from and we are all advised to study and look at it. Who killed you? Where did the kill come from? What went wrong? Stuff like that.

At one stage we used to have debriefings between the CO’s to discuss the game plans each had and what went wrong, only issue with that is the losing side would usually get pissed off and leave if they lost. This is however down to individuals I guess. Many Big Babies around.

Never happened when i was around. In most cases Co would leave as soon as the mission was over. Any debriefing was done was left to PL commanders and other players.

SB General's tactics and command skills developed at a cost of defeats and victories through the course of our life as a VU. Our members probably have the most games under their belts then any other VU out there. Our commanders have the experience to lead and co-ordinate successful battles with minimal loses just through our experience as a team.

Sorry but most of the GenVU commanders are arrogant to learn anything. They disregarded suggestions from others ,sent people on suicide missions. and Grabbed whatever empty vechs they could find even after losing their command vechs.

Nevertheless for H2H battles that was seldom because we rarely lost. However we have lost games and some I personally blame myself for their bad outcomes.

because most scenarios were designed based on unrealistic balance of force and Gen VU played the winning side. Most scenarios the SBG lost were actually balanced and realistic in nature.

Our senior/core members have the experience to guide and help players if they need help. At one stage we had a teamspeak channel dedicated to training. I know from experience that getting up and running online can be a very daunting experience for some, that’s why we show a keen effort to welcome new players to online sessions and get them up to speed with the game. I see no harm in sending a new player straight into the mist of an H2H battles, that’s pretty much where I started when I first bought Steel Beasts.

so does everyone else in the community, calming that only GenVU helps new players is a testimony of your arrogance. I and others like me all across the community have spent hours explaining key concepts to many new people.

If you talking about us Europeans going to bed, remember games can be pretty long 2 hours plus not including briefings and setups and we talking about work next day. Do you really think we want AAR’s debriefings? AAR discussions/debriefings would take place on our forums. The ‘What went wrong’ topics.

AAR debriefings can take place on the same day or next. do you really think everyone reads the forums, ive never seen considerable discussions when i was there.

Well your examples are just bull, people have spent time and effort creating scenarios and what do you get people like you that bitch about them. One thing I can say, you will never make everyone happy/ You should appreciate what people have done for the community. Either say good comments or none.

so people who state their personal exp about something are bitching ? Truthfully Billy I've been in this community longer then you, and all I've seen you do is bring Childish behaviour and Drama.

Actually, you left SB Generals for the reasons of what? You rushed to create your own VU over a year ago and how many members do you have….zero. All I see is you shagging around teamspeak looking for whoever you can play with.

You always had issues Ashtray, and talking about SB Generals won’t help you resolve those.

I left cause SB Gen Commanders chose to act immature and attack Respectable members of 911 VU in public.

Finally Billy i hope you grow up and not turn every post about SBG Vs anyone in the community who happen to make a counter post to your post.

My post simply tried to reflect my personal exp in SB Gen VU but you made it personal and attack me.

[ashdivay]

Incorrect. Ash disagreed with us on how we were handling the 911 incident on our forums and misrepresented the VU on this forum.

on this forum i stated the truth and what i saw , and i voiced my opinion about it.

He declared that he couldn't be with with us after what he had said.

Why would i ? I stand by my word , i stated in the SB.com that i am leaving Gen Vu and that's why i left.

Billy does have a point, despite his having his own VU now, all Ash seems to do is pop up looking anywhere for a game.

So DOES EVERYONE ELSE ? are the GenVU stating that we are losers caus we freelance ? This community is based on idea of open free games.

[Ssnake]

I'm not sure if I like the development of this thread. Try to avoid inflammatory comments and provocations and I may avoid a lock.

[daskal]

Guys - can't you discuss this elsewhere? E.g. Teamspeak and have it out on each-other - once and for all.

So please put and end to this endless cr@p. Its starting to get something like this - without subtitles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG-rPV0mEwU

[Sean]

The nonsense in this thread just makes us all look bad. Not sure what else to say. The four of you should set up a email mailing list and go nuts.

Back to the original topic, the school. The community is too small to support it, like Gary Owen said. It was tried in the past and too few people showed up. Why is the community so small? Here is a link to a post I made a couple of years ago on this issue.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=138640&postcount=67