Tactics for IFV/PC versus Infantry (v. 2.546 - use of ammo - morale - scenariodesign)

[Koen]

Some tips to engage infantry with AI-controlled IFV/PC (such as the wingmen in your platoon ...).

Agree/disagree ? Other solutions ? K.

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It can often be VERY timeconsuming for AI-controlled IFV/PC to take out infantry:

* This is not only due to the justified high fightingpower (RPG etc ...) of infantry

* But it's also due to the fact that AI-controlled IFV/PC use only COAX 7.65 mm vs infantry and not the much more efficient HEI-T.

Firing 7.65 mm instead of HE is not a problem when the Red infantry is in the open: when firing it from an RPG-safe distance, IFV/PC eliminate this infantry almost as quick as with HE.

For example (I ran some tests with the attached scenario):

-> Brad 1/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry in the open - fires only 7.65 mm: infantry is destroyed in some 7:45 - 8:00 minutes

-> Brad 3/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry in the open - fires only HE: infantry is destroyed in some 6:45 - 7:00 minutes

= comparable (but slight time-advantage for HE)

But when infantry is positioned in woods, and thus partly/completely sunk in the ground, 7.65 mm takes more time to eliminate them than HE. And most scenario-designers know they should NOT position their Red infantry in the open ...

-> Brad 2/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry in a woodline - fires only 7.65 mm: infantry is destroyed in some 18:00 - 20:00 minutes

-> Brad 4/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry in a woodline - fires only HE: infantry is destroyed in some 7:00 (1st 2 red squads) - 15:00 minutes (3rd red squad)

= a stronger advantage for HE, which is not surprsing as 1 HE round can take out 2 or more squad-members, versus 7.62 only 1 (although 7.62 is fired more rapidly, but also has to be fired more precisely ?)

There are several ways to make AI-controlled IFV/PC use HE vs infantry instead of 7.62 mm:

1) use the shoot-at-command

=> The whole IFV-platoon will fire HE instead of 7.62 mm (if available)

=> but this command may not work when the platoon is moving, only at halts ?

Note that in the map you can guide the platoons fire, by increasing the angle changing the distance & width of the firecommand.

2) hop in the TC seat of each vehicle and set ammo to HE

=> more timeconsuming than solution 1

=> and if you go back to F8 observer, the AI TC will change ammo back to 7.62, when he detects infantry: "Gunner, COAX, troops" ... so not OK

3) scenario-designers can also set Damage to COAX of AI-controlled IFV/PC (preferably with Repair if-option, based e.g. on triggers). The vehicles will then only fire the main gun: mostly HE, but it can be also AP (I've seen both for Brads versus infantry, and with no Red vehicles around)

Next to the above one preferably should bypass Red infantry (e.g. with smoke), use arty etc ..., but it is often not possible to entirely avoid the fight ...

On a sidenote: in SB Red (and Blue) always fight to the death, never panic ...

So mission designers could inject some psychology/morale issues, e.g. by adding retreat routes (for both sides), in function of losses already taken during the mission, or in function of a morale boost by the arrival of a truck at the inf. position with ammo, food ... A lot of work, but not impossible ...

PS with AI-tks it's the same situation I think: use of COAX 7.62 mm vs infantry rather than HE

IFV vs Infantry - ammo use.rar

Edited March 20, 2011 by Koen

[Koen]

AI-controlled IFV/PC in SB still seem to have a hard time eliminating infantry, mainly due to

using only COAX 7.65 mm vs infantry and not the much more efficient HEI-T.

I retested the same above attached scenario now in v. 2.654 and the conclusions are still largely the same:

-> Brad 1/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry positioned in the open - fires only 7.65 mm:

infantry is destroyed in some 6:30 - 7:30 minutes (= idem as previous test of v. 2.546)

-> Brad 3/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry positioned in the open - fires only HE (I put COAX as damaged):

infantry is destroyed in some 1:10 - 1:30 minutes (<-> 6:45 - 7:00 minutes in the previous test of v. 2.546)

= clear advantage for HE versus 7.62 mm ammo

-> Brad 2/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry positioned in a woodline - fires only 7.65 mm:

infantry is destroyed only after + 20:00 - 25:00 minutes (= idem as previous test of v. 2.546)

- nb for gaming this may seem a very lenghty time, but in real life it may not be that different ?

-> Brad 4/A advances from a distance of 1 KM towards infantry positioned in a woodline - fires only HE (I put COAX as damaged):

infantry is destroyed in some 9:00 - 18:00 minutes (= idem as previous test of v. 2.546)

= a stronger advantage for HE versus 7.62 mm ammo

Conclusion is that scenariodesigners may decide to beef up their AI-controlled IFV/PC versus infantry, by putting COAX as damaged if ("if this unit sees Troops" - or "if Trigger X is set"),

which will force the IFV/PC to use HE (an sometimes AP) instead of 7.62 mm ammo.

nb 1 "COAX Repair if" would make this complete ("if this unit does not see Troops" - or "if Trigger Y is set")

nb 2 For human-controlled IFV/PC, the "Suppress"-command should still make the platoon fire HE instead of 7.62 mm (to be checked)

Agree/disagree ?

[Kingtiger]

Nice testing and conclusions. But the MG damage would be permanent leaving the IFV/PC defensless if it ran out of HE rounds? For example CV9040C that don't carry much rounds at all?

[Koen]

Nice testing and conclusions. But the MG damage would be permanent leaving the IFV/PC defensless if it ran out of HE rounds? For example CV9040C that don't carry much rounds at all?

Hmm, yes. I tested this with Bradley's, that carry plenty of HE (233/467 M792 HE-I-T).

So this may be more difficult to do with CV9040C (8/32 Slsgr 90 HET).

Some possible solutions:

* Use triggers to "Damage if" and also "Repair if" COAX, instead of the automatic "if this unit sees (Damage if)/does not see (Repair if) Troops".

Then you still have control and can decide to switch back to 7.62 mm ammo if a unit is in danger of running out of HE, and you want to avoid this.

* Have an ammo-truck nearby to reload HE, if conditions allow this ...

* ? Increase the HET loadout of CV9040C, if possible ?

Could the 8/32 Kulsgr 95LK '3P'-slot be filled up with HET ? Then again, Kulsgr 95LK is also effective vs infantry, no ? (see SB wiki)

* ? Give heavier weapons to the dismount section of the CV9040C: heavy MG, grenade launcher ... ? to be tested, as often attacking infantry seems to be destroyed easily by defending infantry.

In the end: all vehicletypes have their various strong/weak points and should be used in their respective ways

[SeanPatrick]

I've found that the AI just isn't very accurate with MGs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to always use a sweeping motion (moving upward in elevation.) I understand this is a good technique for trying to hit troops in cover, but sometimes if I jump into the gunner's seat, I can usually wipe out a platoon in a minute or so. Seems like it takes the AI a little longer.

That being said, I kind of like the balance where it is now.

[Kingtiger]

*The trigger method can work, but then again it demands a human player reacting that one of the units are engaging infantry somewhere.

*You can increase the HE load of the CV90 but only by removing the AP ammo, the CV9040C are heavier armoured on the cost of ammo loadout. On a CV9040B the problem is less noticable I guess.

*The 3P ammo is very effective against infantry, especially if used correctly, so thats a good to go ammo.

/KT