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Crusty

Coaxing a bailing crew

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This is the cause of many problems today because we saddle the men with so much ROE trying to micromanage every decision that they end up being too afraid to do anything at all.

"TC ..is it ok to fire?"

" I don't know...let me get on the radio"

*45 minutes later*

"After our lawyers consulted with their lawyers,who consulted the commonsense Think Tank and it looks like we are free to engage."

" Uh never mind ...they took off"

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The only ROE I've ever operated under when I was downrange was "Shoot to eliminate the threat," but I never served in the conventional force-on-force phase of a war (Lucky me, or something... :-? ). "Eliminate the threat" has more wiggle room than Clausewitz's call to "destroy the enemy."

This is a little OT, but Volcano, do you notice the Army slacking off on teaching its young soldiers about reacting to unlawful orders? I've heard the same complaint elsewhere. If so, that's troubling given the kinds missions they find themselves in anymore.

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This is a little OT, but Volcano, do you notice the Army slacking off on teaching its young soldiers about reacting to unlawful orders? I've heard the same complaint elsewhere. If so, that's troubling given the kinds missions they find themselves in anymore.

I haven't specifically heard it, but I put that picture together indirectly from the goings on these days (and from a friend who is still in). I am sure it has something to do with rapid promotions.

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Kill all enemy tanks and crews. Crush the living and the dead. No question.

{Ask the Chechens [Muslims], as they tortured of captured tank crews?}

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MP96, it doesn't matter what the enemy does ... from a strictly legal point of view. What matter is that we as soldiers represent our state and society, and that our states being signatories of the Geneva convention and other treaties have voluntarily bound to follow the rules in them. It is explicitly NOT a matter of reciprocation. In fact, the states have all unilaterally bound themselves to follow the rules (in the expectation that, the more states follow in their foot steps, their own soldiers and population will eventually benefit from this as well).

The challenge that we are facing these days is that we are facing non-state actors who, by definition, can't be signatories of those treaties, hence it creates the perception that the regulations of Geneva et. al. are going down the drain. Setting up the International Court for War Crimes in The Hague is an attempt to stem the tide.

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Sure but two or three men (if the crew in question is that lucky) cowering somewhere with perhaps a side arm between them doesn't really constitute a threat.

Most crews when they bail out, go with what they have and the usual lengthy checklists are ignored.

Its not as if they get off the vehicle with a Javelin CLU and rounds or a MILAN post or whatever.

They may have a radio and ability to call in Arty.

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I’m guessing you’ve never had to get out of a burning (or about to be burning vehicle).

There isn’t time to grab anything (unless its on you like a pistol in a shoulder holster). Vehicles don’t carry man pack radios all set up to grab on the way out and either the vehicle mounted radios aren’t suitable (like they don’t run on batteries) or they are well secured and can’t be removed in time (where is the man pack harness, where is the handset, where is the antennae, ...).

If you are real lucky you can grab your pack from the bustle bin as you roll over the side and slide down the hull.

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No,but it was a just a suggestion and a possibility.With electronics the way they r now there must be something handy to grab on the way out or in your person already?

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No I’m afraid it doesn’t work that way. :)

Your radios and the crew intercom are wired into the vehicle and you gain access to them by plugging your helmet into the system (just like a pilot).

VHF radios with 40km+ range are still bulky and they use an antennae attached to the vehicle. It would be very hard to make a radio small enough that you could wear and yet have the range and functionality required (let alone be shock proofed, etc. for when you bounce around inside).

The closest you get to a hand held is the Infantry/Tank telephone that some vehicles have at the rear but yes its on a wire so you can use it away from the vehicle but it doesn’t access the “radio”, it only accesses the intercom so the grunts can talk to us inside.

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MP96, it doesn't matter what the enemy does ... from a strictly legal point of view. What matter is that we as soldiers represent our state and society, and that our states being signatories of the Geneva convention and other treaties have voluntarily bound to follow the rules in them. It is explicitly NOT a matter of reciprocation. In fact, the states have all unilaterally bound themselves to follow the rules (in the expectation that, the more states follow in their foot steps, their own soldiers and population will eventually benefit from this as well).

The challenge that we are facing these days is that we are facing non-state actors who, by definition, can't be signatories of those treaties, hence it creates the perception that the regulations of Geneva et. al. are going down the drain. Setting up the International Court for War Crimes in The Hague is an attempt to stem the tide.

Good. Roger.

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No I’m afraid it doesn’t work that way. :)

Your radios and the crew intercom are wired into the vehicle and you gain access to them by plugging your helmet into the system (just like a pilot).

VHF radios with 40km+ range are still bulky and they use an antennae attached to the vehicle. It would be very hard to make a radio small enough that you could wear and yet have the range and functionality required (let alone be shock proofed, etc. for when you bounce around inside).

The closest you get to a hand held is the Infantry/Tank telephone that some vehicles have at the rear but yes its on a wire so you can use it away from the vehicle but it doesn’t access the “radio”, it only accesses the intercom so the grunts can talk to us inside.

Hmm maybe some one should get on it and develope something portable that a AFV crewman can have on his person for emerg. situations and the like.Im sure it can be done,i mean we can send pictures back from Mars,lol.:)

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Hmm maybe some one should get on it and develope something portable that a AFV crewman can have on his person for emerg. situations and the like.Im sure it can be done,i mean we can send pictures back from Mars,lol.:)

Cell phone:eek2:

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Great idea - for training.

On OPs we are required to leave them in the FOB and besides coverage in the sandpit (regardless of where you go) is pretty poor.

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Exactly,there are plenty of satts. orbiting the earth.Imagine you bail out of yourAFV and you haave comms on you.You are now more than a roaming TC,you have the ability to call in Arty and relay Eny. posostion and strenghth ect...:shocked:

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Exactly,there are plenty of satts. orbiting the earth.Imagine you bail out of yourAFV and you haave comms on you.You are now more than a roaming TC,you have the ability to call in Arty and relay Eny. posostion and strenghth ect...:shocked:

Again it boils down to what can fit in the pockets of your coveralls.

The average issue Sat phone is the size of a brick (by the time they are "ruggardised" they are the size of the old brief case "mobile phones").

Add to that that in the current environment many crews don't wear their complete protective overalls (willing to trade some degree of comfort for the flash burn risk) and you'd likely often see many crews bail out in "boots and jocks" (with maybe the CC with his top on because he can be seen from the outside).

Then there's the issue that if the commander is hurt (or can't get out, e.g. he is the casualty that causes the rest of the crew to bail) most likely no one else will have the magic 'phone.

You can't give everyone a 'phone.

Finally you are now assuming that the CP has some sort of setup to accept incoming calls. I can just imagine the fun if "Tommy Taliban" captured one of these and hit "1" on the speed dial to see who he could talk to.

It may sound like a good idea (esp if you've watched "Heartbreak Ridge" too many times :)) but it doesn't really work that way (otherwise I'm thinking they'd be on issue already).

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You can't give everyone a 'phone.

The military doesn't need to "buy" any phones. Most Tele-Com companies offer a free phone if you sign up for 2 year contract. Calling in a JDAM strike would barely dent your monthly minutes.

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No no, I have seen the games before. You jump out of the tank like you are catapulted off a large spring, with radio, rifle, grenades, NVG goggles etc. As soon as your feet hit the ground you take off running to the nearest enemy tank and kill the crew. You then get in that tank and kill enemy tanks. You then make your way to the nearest helicopter base and jump in one of those for even more destruction.

Meanwhile, the enemy is thinking: "Should of killed those tank crewmen when you had the chance, now the whole war is lost!" ;)

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The military doesn't need to "buy" any phones. Most Tele-Com companies offer a free phone if you sign up for 2 year contract. Calling in a JDAM strike would barely dent your monthly minutes.

I don't think they'll give you a "free" Sat phone. :)

And I'm pretty sure confirming you have AT&T or Verizon or whoever mobile 'phone coverage isn't a planning consideration yet (or is Halliburton also now putting up 'phone towers on behalf of the US DoD in every likely theatre?).

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No no, I have seen the games before. You jump out of the tank like you are catapulted off a large spring, with radio, rifle, grenades, NVG goggles etc. As soon as your feet hit the ground you take off running to the nearest enemy tank and kill the crew. You then get in that tank and kill enemy tanks. You then make your way to the nearest helicopter base and jump in one of those for even more destruction.

Meanwhile, the enemy is thinking: "Should of killed those tank crewmen when you had the chance, now the whole war is lost!" ;)

Ah yes, the hard core realism of arma... All you need to do is run up to the enemy T-80 and shoot it with 7.62 and the crew eventually bails out, then the tank explodes.

With realism like that its no wonder people want to ignore other AFVs for the higher level threat of two or three guys that just had their tank shot out from under them.

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is Halliburton also now putting up 'phone towers on behalf of the US DoD in every likely theatre?

No need ...AT&T provides mobile cell up links.

Cell tower

CellTowerATT.jpg

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