Do Challenger Crews Use WP To Mark TRPs?

[SeanPatrick]

In SB and the real world? And for that matter, any other countries?

And on a slightly related note: Are "Immediate Suppression" calls non-repeatable? (in SB)

[Gibsonm]

Well we don't as it would give it away.

The grid is recorded and the fire spt guys just use that in their fire control computers.

Certeinly you can use techniques like "watch my trace" for unplanned activities but that's by definition not a TRP.

[SeanPatrick]

So, to be sure, it wouldn't be out of the question in an emergency for a Challenger (with say, a damaged LRF) to fire a WP in order to mark a spot for a FO to then call fire on?

I don't have a specific situation in mind, just curious as to all of the intended (and even those unintended yet still deployed) uses of the WP round.

Thanks.

[Gibsonm]

Well maybe but "out of the question in an emergency" no doubt includes "highly unlikely".

Perhaps to help a JTAC with confirming an airstrike (i.e. the aircraft is already loitering and needs confirmation before starting its run or releasing its payload).

But for artillery where the first 20-30 seconds of a mission does the damage, I wouldn't.

Firing a WP round just tells the bad guys that something "special" is going to happen wherever the round hits and they may well move away before the mission is called in. Remember identifying the tgt for the observer is just the start of the process, the rounds landing is still a few minutes away.

The observer already has good optics so coax fire (or "plain jane" HESH) can just as easily mark the target for him but not necessarily alert the enemy.

So an exchange something like this would happen:

"G15 (guns) this is T22 (tk crew), request fire mission south east end of town, watch my trace / HESH."

Tank fires

"T22 this is G15, seen" (G15's binos/sight gives him all the required data for the mission on that impact point)

"G15 this is T22, reference fall of shot, one building left wih yellow awning, suspected ATGM team, neutralise"

The observer then reports if he can see the tgt and if he can, he is able to tailor the mission since he knows the tgt type, its location and the desired effect.

Then a couple of minutes later the ATGM team is hit by the mission and all they know is that a couple of minutes before someone shot up the building next to them.

If that building had suddenly been obscured in smoke from a WP round and then probably caught fire, they may well have moved to their alternate position before the artillery arrived (don't know if SB AI controlled Infantry would react that way).

I've left off the overarching issue of the legality of WP to mark tgts (which varies from country to country) as opposed to its obscuration effects.

[Froggy]

When I was an AMX30 TC (back in 1995) we used WP to mark a position for immediate HE supression by the tanks of the platoon:

PL: "10, 2 O'clock, 1500, dismounts in the tree line, be ready for HE by 2 on my mark."

11,12,13 : "Ready"

PL: "Fire when ready"

Pl fire his WP round 15m right of the middle of the eny formation then reload with HE.

Each tank move his aiming point according to it position in the platoon to cover the whole target area with HE damage radius (11 will fire 15m left to the marked point, then 30m left, 12 will fire 45m left then 60m, 13 will fire 30m right then 45m, 10 will fire on the smoke then 15m right) and open fire, reload, move the aiming point and fire again.

[SeanPatrick]

Okay, awesome. Thanks!

[Gibsonm]

Well that may well be French doctrine, but:

1. The UK is constained by the whole "WP is a chemical weapon" issue (so unlikely for CR2 to use WP), and

2. What you are describing isn't really a TRP. Now maybe Sean meant something else but he did specify it.

[SeanPatrick]

Yeah, I used the term loosely (and incorrectly). Actually, what I meant was when you don't have a TRP and you want to mark a target.

[Froggy]

Well that may well be French doctrine, but:

1. The UK is constained by the whole "WP is a chemical weapon" issue (so unlikely for CR2 to use WP),

So Esim should remove WP from default ammo load?

2. What you are describing isn't really a TRP. Now maybe Sean meant something else but he did specify it.

I was describing the way we use WP to mark a position (there is none on Leclerc now, only for AMX10RCR and ERC90R).

The other use is to create a smoke barrier in front of ennemy force (and prevent the use of laser if ennemy is using TIS).

For TRP, we use grid coordinate (from map or from lased position, like in SB)

[Gibsonm]

So Esim should remove WP from default ammo load?

No.

You can certainly use it to obscure a position or screen yours, which is what it is legally designated for.

However where you fire can't be occupied, or in more strict ROE, needs to be positively identified as being unoccupied.

Within those guidlines you can't use it to neutralise an occupied position or mark an occupied position for other units to fire at so its use becomes pointless.

So in your example, you could fire the WP but the tgt reference point from it would be something like:

"Reference WP strike, 11 O'clock, 800m" (that is 11 O'clock relative to where the WP landed and 800m from it).

Whereas the other nature you'd use, HESH, can be fired directly at the tgt and still provide the reference point due to the smoke, dust, etc.

Similar limitations apply to use of the WP smoke grenades carried for local obscuration and the temptation to use them as some sort of close in anti personnel weapon.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Gibsonm