Falli Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 A "small" update on the process... Around 50km of the former inner German border are completed. I´ve decided to simulate also app. 4-8km depth of the Thuringian (Ex-GDR) territory. So areas which can be observed by the West German side. And some details for the historians of you, some tales are hardly to believe nowadays :clin: The former Observation Point ROMEO of the 11ACR north of BISSERODE Former West/East German Control Point along the Autobahn 4 north of HERLESHAUSEN/WARTHA. It was the only transit point in Hessia. "The Wall" between KLEINENSEE and GROSSENSEE. It was one of the few places of the inner German border, where the GDR built a real wall. Otherwise it were normally solid metal fences, obstacles etc. They built this wall in order to avoid the people to see each other while living less than 500m away. In the tiny village of GROSSENSEE a whole company of the GDR border troops was located. This West German potash factory near HERINGEN had a special permission to drive their freight trains through GDR territory to the train transit point GERSTUNGEN, turn around and bring the goods to BEBRA, because there was no other railway track in the area. The end of the Autobahn 4... Until the 90´s there was no direct and end-to-end connection between BAD HERSFELD and EISENACH. The highway ended at OBERSUHL, you had to drive a 30km northeastern bypass around GDR territory along the B400 in order to get on the Autobahn 4 at WOMMEN again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryOwen Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Old tower at Vacha/Philippsthal. I just spent a couple hours on Skype with a friend who grew up down the street from that bridge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Nice photo! Different times... but always interesting.Also my memories are nearly gone regarding this period. I was in our school´s last 7th grade which visited West Berlin and The Wall in March 1989.Must be this bridge and church: https://www.google.de/maps/place/Vacha/@50.8293317,10.0229486,18z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47a35c22b082180d:0x7a1b2937b1973695As you can see, the church was done and also there´s a new bridge across the Werra.Interesting story again... the house directly north of the bridge was devided in two halfs by the iron curtain :clin: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryOwen Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Yep, that's the spot. I took that photo during a walkabout one weekend from Bad Hersfeld to Bad Salzungen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacbat Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Nice work Falli! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankHunter Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Looking nice. How long till it's released? I'm guessing a while, maps of that detail take a damn long time! In any event looking forward to its release! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 T(h)anks, T(h)anks. I again hope to release the new version of the map around turn of the year 2015/16. There´s still a lot of work to do, not with the grade of details as on FRG side... but you should also see some things on the GDR side (villages, main roads etc.). There should be a modern variant of the map and additionally - as last year - a 1989 version with complete und typical border installations. And also quality assurance has to do it´s homework :clin: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Looks fantastic.Looking forward to "twining" it with the map used for LNoT in October. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleRider Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Wow, this brings back a lot of memories! When I was in the 8th Infantry Division 1985-88, our go to war positions were southeast of Fulda. I'm trying to get my bearings straight, I remember a very large hill or mountain to the east where I could see people taking off with hang gliders. My memory has faded to where exactly that was. Beautiful country, colder than hell in the winter though! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Aloha ohe! More of them, I love this kind of stories :cool3:I presume that this hill was around the "Wasserkuppe" here: https://www.google.de/maps/@50.5010846,9.943034,14z/data=!3m1!1e3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Aloha ohe! More of them, I love this kind of stories :cool3:I presume that this hill was around the "Wasserkuppe" here: https://www.google.de/maps/@50.5010846,9.943034,14z/data=!3m1!1e3 Well its a bit South of where I spent some time in 1989 Troop Leading in Scimitars with the Brits but it has a similar "look and feel". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleRider Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Aloha ohe! More of them, I love this kind of stories :cool3:I presume that this hill was around the "Wasserkuppe" here: https://www.google.de/maps/@50.5010846,9.943034,14z/data=!3m1!1e3That has to be it! Looks very familiar! Thanks for pointing it out! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithcorp Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Fantastic map Falli.Now, a question - in a BG-ANZAC discussion on the Demolition Guard training film we talked about how during the Cold War, troops posted in Germany would prepare and regularly recce defensive positions in case of a Red attack. I'm interested in learning more about this - are there any books/resources anyone can recommend please? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Fantastic map Falli.Now, a question - in a BG-ANZAC discussion on the Demolition Guard training film we talked about how during the Cold War, troops posted in Germany would prepare and regularly recce defensive positions in case of a Red attack. I'm interested in learning more about this - are there any books/resources anyone can recommend please? I'm not sure if there are books but certainly in the UK's British Army of the Rhine (BAOR) sector there were prepared AFV scrapes for a given vehicle's primary, alternate and secondary positions complete with ammo cache. The optimists said it was to reduce the logistic burden, the pragmatists said that the first battle position was also likely to be the only battle position and they had to make their time there count. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSe419E Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I'm not sure if there are books but certainly in the UK's British Army of the Rhine (BAOR) sector there were prepared AFV scrapes for a given vehicle's primary, alternate and secondary positions complete with ammo cache.The optimists said it was to reduce the logistic burden, the pragmatists said that the first battle position was also likely to be the only battle position and they had to make their time there count. I was told we would never use them because the WP had plotted their exact locations and would obliterate them with concentrated artillery fire as they were crossing the border. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithcorp Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Thanks for the replies - has given me some search terms to follow up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Fantastic map Falli.Now, a question - in a BG-ANZAC discussion on the Demolition Guard training film we talked about how during the Cold War, troops posted in Germany would prepare and regularly recce defensive positions in case of a Red attack. I'm interested in learning more about this - are there any books/resources anyone can recommend please? Unfortunately it´s hard to find operational informations and I´m not into english books so far. I only can recommend the following books/magazines which I personally own: - Schlachtfeld Deutschland: Die Kriegseinsatzplanung der sowjetischen Streitkräfte in der DDR (Battlefield Germany: Operational War Planning of the Sovjet Forces in the GDR / only German) - Kriegsschauplatz Deutschland: Erfahrungen und Erkenntnisse eines NVA-Offiziers (War Theater Germany: Experiences and Perceptions of a NVA Officer / only German) - Schlachtfeld Fulda Gap Battlefield Fulda Gap - Alliances´ Strategies and Operational Planning in Cold War / only German) - Die Verteidigung Westeuropas: Doktrin, Kraftestand, Einsatzplanung : eine Bestandsaufnahme aus Sicht der NATO The Defense of Western Europe: Doctrin, Forces and Operational Planning - a Survey from NATO´s Perspective (only in German) - The Third World War (a novel, but quite realistic for that time / in English) - Constant Enforcer 79 - US Army and NATO-Allies fight for the Fulda Gap (in German/English) The term "defense" is perhaps misleading. There was a concept for "forward defense", but it was more like a massive delay operation (from the late 70´s to 1990). It also mainly depends on the terrain, you can´t fight the same way in the Northern German Plains, the Fulda Gap or the Bavarian Forrest More keywords or interesting concepts would be "sponge tactic", "flexible response" or "Jagdkampf" etc. Edited August 13, 2015 by Falli 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisenschwein Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I was told we would never use them because the WP had plotted their exact locations and would obliterate them with concentrated artillery fire as they were crossing the border.In the mid 80´s we have forwarded Ammo- and Fuel Dumps, but not in forward GDP Positions.Bundeswehr did it this way (we called NATO Alarm) move out of the Garrison, get Battle ready and grab your Ammo and Fuel (100 %), move by Train to your GDP Room. A second 100% Ammoload is transported by the Ammo Group of each Battalion to the GDP Room (That were Areas 25 - 30 Km behind the Borderline).In the Mid 80´s we have minimum one Time a Year a little visit in our GDP Rooms, certainly in civil Clothes and with taped Number plates and Tactical Signs ;-)May be a good starting is this Link:http://www.orbat85.nl/order-of-battle/nato-command-structure.html#northagIt´s about 1 NL Corps/NORTHAGBy the way I serve in PzBtl 74 / PzGrenBrig 7 / 3. Panzerdivision / I Korps (GE) / NORTHAGHere is another Link (sorry only in German) about the Plannings of the GDR.Start on Page 20:http://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg/de/home/dokumentation/publik_zeitrschr/military_power_revue.parsys.79525.downloadList.98418.DownloadFile.tmp/gesamtausgabempr211.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithcorp Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Thanks Falli and Eisenschwein! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I remembered one special article in the book "Schlachtfeld Fulda Gap", where a former company commander (Roger Cirillo) of the 11ACR explains a lot of details about the defense plan of his company along the border in 1980. The article is only in German, so I unfortunately have to quote and translate some general details analogously. :heu: According to the General Defense Plan (GDP) for the 1/11ACR there were 4 phases in case of a WP engagement. It was assumed to face out min. one reinforced Mech. Rifle Regiment of the first echelon.Soviet calculations spoke of a "typical" penetration of 1500m/h for a MRR. The 11ACR was equipped with M551, M114, M113 and M60A1 at that time. - Alarm phase: load necessary ammunition, take combat positions, engineer/special units on alert, evacuation of civilians - Recon/Covering of OP area: reconnaissance of OP area, tank coy in reserve & prepares counterattacks, howitzers secure the deployment, hold positions until reinforcements/replacements arrive (8ID/3AD), blasts according to tactical situation, support by AirCav See graphic 2 - Defense of Bundesstrasse B84 GEISA-RASDORF-HUENFELD-ALSFELD Reinforcement by covering forces, delay action along B84, defeat of 1st echelon, counterattacks on 2nd echelon, withdraw to SCHLITZ (3rd Brig/3AD) See detailed positions in graphic 3 - Reforming: Regrouping/reforming of 1/11ACR and defense west of highway A7 & east of FULDA, counterattacks Taken from: Cirillo, R.; Die Verteidigung der Bundesstrasse 84 in: Krueger, D.(Ed.); Schlachtfeld Fulda Gap; Fulda 2014; p.142-146 Threat level of the B Coy according to the General Defence Plan of 1/11ACR in Phase 3 (1980) Recon mission for B Coy in Phase 2 (1980) Possible defense of 1/11ACR in Phase 3 (1980) There are much, much, much more details in this article regarding positions, engineer plans, blasts, obstacles, possible/presumed enemy behaviour & attack axes. Perhaps I can contact the author for those details in English. If anyone has more/other informations, please let me know 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpow66m Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 so when are you making the sce?:bigsmile: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDF Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Fantastic map Falli.Now, a question - in a BG-ANZAC discussion on the Demolition Guard training film we talked about how during the Cold War, troops posted in Germany would prepare and regularly recce defensive positions in case of a Red attack. I'm interested in learning more about this - are there any books/resources anyone can recommend please?I recommend looking at back issues of the US Army's Military Review, Armor magazine, Field Artillery magazine, and Army Aviation Digest, which are mostly available online. For obvious reasons, they don't go into detail on the preparation of defensive positions in specific areas of West Germany, but you'll still find lots of interesting details along those lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisenschwein Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 This is a Video blackhill make in 2012 after a 911 LAN Party. You can see the way from MARBACH - SARGENZELL to STEINBACH Notice the Landscape, it´s nearly the same all around FULDA 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falli Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 so when are you making the sce?:bigsmile:I´m good in map making or texturing, so I´d like to hand those tasks to more qualified people :bigsmile: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpow66m Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 but the overlays looked so promising....................:icon_frown: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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