Canadian OOB

[PincerDK]

Hello guys!

I have a couple of short questions regarding Canadian Order Of Battle during 1989ish?

1. What were there of Air Defense systems? ADATS was that fielded yet in large numbers? Blowpipe was still quite relevant, but how effective was it? EDIT: Just read that ADATS were only fielded in larger numbers after the Cold War and Javelin were starting to replace the blowpipe.

2. How were the the tank regiment's recon squadron organized? 20 lynx divided up into 4 vehicle platoon's and further divided into 2 vehicle sections?

3. Would the Leopard 1A5 be a suitable proxy for a Leopard C1?

4. How was a infantry section organised? 8 persons equipped with FN FAL and M72 LAWs?? Was the Carl Gustav part of a separate weapons platoon?

Hope anyone can answer these questions.

Esben.

[Tacbat]

1. Depends. It could be either shoulder launched or mounted on a tripod which was able to hold three missiles.

3. Sure.

4. The C-7 (M-16) started replacing the FN in the mid-80's. Usually there were 2 M72's in a section, but that doesn't mean they didn't carry more or less depending on what thier mission was. The Carl-G was part of a heavy weapons detachment within the platoon, which also included a C-6 (7.62mm GPMG) and a 60mm motar.

[Tango29]

IIRC correctly, the Recce squadron had 24 Lynx divided into three troops and a Squadron HQ (plus other vehicles in the SHQ and the echelons). Each troop had one Lynx for the Tp Ldr and three patrols of two Lynx each = 7 Lynx per troop. Three troops = 21 Lynx. SHQ had one Lynx for each of the Squadron Commander, Battle Captain and Liaison Officer ( a necessary and very important position as, on ops, the squadron was cut to the Brigade Commader as his brigade recce force. The LO was dealing directly with the Brigade staff on behalf of the Squadron Commander).

This is how our recce squadron was organized, but that was a few years before the timeframe you provide. I don't think that there was too much variance, but there may have been some. This, at least, will give you a good starting point!

[PincerDK]

1. Depends. It could be either shoulder launched or mounted on a tripod which was able to hold three missiles.

3. Sure.

4. The C-7 (M-16) started replacing the FN in the mid-80's. Usually there were 2 M72's in a section, but that doesn't mean they didn't carry more or less depending on what thier mission was. The Carl-G was part of a heavy weapons detachment within the platoon, which also included a C-6 (7.62mm GPMG) and a 60mm motar.

1. Well three would of course increase the odds but I think the british thought it was lacking during the Falklands War.

3. But I mean, does the C1 have any limitations or advantages? IIRC the Leopard 1A3 did not have TIS for example.

4. And it is 8 people per section?

Anyway thanks Tacbat.

IIRC correctly, the Recce squadron had 24 Lynx divided into three troops and a Squadron HQ (plus other vehicles in the SHQ and the echelons). Each troop had one Lynx for the Tp Ldr and three patrols of two Lynx each = 7 Lynx per troop. Three troops = 21 Lynx. SHQ had one Lynx for each of the Squadron Commander, Battle Captain and Liaison Officer ( a necessary and very important position as, on ops, the squadron was cut to the Brigade Commader as his brigade recce force. The LO was dealing directly with the Brigade staff on behalf of the Squadron Commander).

This is how our recce squadron was organized, but that was a few years before the timeframe you provide. I don't think that there was too much variance, but there may have been some. This, at least, will give you a good starting point!

There's no 2IC for the recon squadron?

No i don't think either there would be that big of a difference.

What about the Cougar? was it used as a recon vehicle?

And do you know if there were any divisional recon units? Or was it only brigade recon squadron and each infantry battalion's recon squadron?

Thanks for the information Tango, the structure does seems fair for a reconnaissance unit.

[Ssnake]

3. Would the Leopard 1A5 be a suitable proxy for a Leopard C1?

The Leopard AS1 seems to be the better choice. Both have the same SABCA fire control system and crosswind sensor. The white light searchlight would be a difference I think, but as do not yet properly model night combat anyway, this is irrelevant in SB Pro in its current state.

What isn't modeled yet is the PZB200 image intensifier that the Canadians had but which doesn't seem to be part of the Leo AS1.

[Tacbat]

4. And it is 8 people per section?

Yes.

[Tango29]

There's no 2IC for the recon squadron?

No i don't think either there would be that big of a difference.

What about the Cougar? was it used as a recon vehicle?

And do you know if there were any divisional recon units? Or was it only brigade recon squadron and each infantry battalion's recon squadron?

Thanks for the information Tango, the structure does seems fair for a reconnaissance unit.

Yes, there were many more components of the recce squadron: SHQ, troops, A1 Echelon, A2 Echelon and so forth. I was just addressing your query regarding Lynx numbers and employment. The Sqn 2/IC was employed primarily in the Sqn A2 Echelon dealing with resupply and admin. As required (Sqn Comd became a casualty, for example) the 2/IC came forward, got an update brief from the Battle Captain, and continued with the Squadron operational tasks. He always monitored the sqn ops net to keep up to date, so slipping in to the Sqn Comd role was not overly difficult.

In my time (early '80's) we used the Cougar primarily as a tank trainer, and the sqn was configured along the lines of a tank sqn. Subsequently the Cougar was used briefly on ops in Bosnia (mid-1990's), but it was not used as a recce vehicle, IIRC. This was my Cougar in 1983:

The formation of a div recce regt was floated at some time in the '80's (again, IIRC), but it did not get too far. Primarily, the concept for us was: armd recce sqn acted as bde recce, inf recce pls provided close recce for their respective battalions, remaining bde units were responsible for their own security and recce parties. The recce parties, BTW, were formed to assist in unit moves in conjunction with bde operations. So, if necessary, they'd form, do their recce, assist the unit to make the move, then dissolve back into their "real" jobs within the unit.

Hope all this helps!

[12Alfa]

We did used the Cougar later in the 90's after the regular force stopped using them. For a number of years we did all kinds of armoured ops in them, even some COIN.

Being a fast, dependable (after retro-fit and removed from the reg force) and quiet (compared to tracks) they did well in the recce role. The only down side we found was having no dismounts. When the Coyote entered service they fixed the dismount issue, however as we found out in Afstgn, the 25mm was no match for the mud walls, hence the Leo1C1 deployment.

The 76mm in the Cougar would have done the same effect with HESH on the mud walls, but they had been withdrawn from service by then.

[Gibsonm]

What isn't modeled yet is the PZB200 image intensifier that the Canadians had but which doesn't seem to be part of the Leo AS1.

Correct.

Leo AS1 was to receive TI as a mid life refit but it never happened. Active IR searchlight was the limit of its night fighting capability.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Gibsonm

[DemolitionMan]

In addition to the LLLTV, the late 80s C1 received the IRS100 thermal system: http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Electro-Optic-Systems/Cassidian-PZB-200-IRS-100-LLLTV-IR-sight-Germany.html

[PincerDK]

What isn't modeled yet is the PZB200 image intensifier that the Canadians had but which doesn't seem to be part of the Leo AS1.

In addition to the LLLTV, the late 80s C1 received the IRS100 thermal system: http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...t-Germany.html

http://www.kotsch88.de/f_pzb200.htm

I would presume this is the one. It does look a bit like the T-72's night sight, although far better quality.

Does image intensifier qualify as TIS or as part of a IR-search light combination?

Actually now that we are talking about stuff that is on a Leopard 1, other than this one, what is the purpose of the big box, to the left of the Leopard 1 turret?

Yes, there were many more components of the recce squadron: SHQ, troops, A1 Echelon, A2 Echelon and so forth. I was just addressing your query regarding Lynx numbers and employment. The Sqn 2/IC was employed primarily in the Sqn A2 Echelon dealing with resupply and admin. As required (Sqn Comd became a casualty, for example) the 2/IC came forward, got an update brief from the Battle Captain, and continued with the Squadron operational tasks. He always monitored the sqn ops net to keep up to date, so slipping in to the Sqn Comd role was not overly difficult.

If A2 is admin/resupply, does A1 Echelon correspond to a reserve force?

Of course that makes sense.

The battle captain (which I first stumbled upon in "First Clash", is he an commissioned officer or senior enlisted?)

In my time (early '80's) we used the Cougar primarily as a tank trainer, and the sqn was configured along the lines of a tank sqn. Subsequently the Cougar was used briefly on ops in Bosnia (mid-1990's), but it was not used as a recce vehicle, IIRC.

It does seem like a vehicle that never actually had a real purpose?

This was my Cougar in 1983:

That is one beauty I must say!

The formation of a div recce regt was floated at some time in the '80's (again, IIRC), but it did not get too far. Primarily, the concept for us was: armd recce sqn acted as bde recce, inf recce pls provided close recce for their respective battalions, remaining bde units were responsible for their own security and recce parties. The recce parties, BTW, were formed to assist in unit moves in conjunction with bde operations. So, if necessary, they'd form, do their recce, assist the unit to make the move, then dissolve back into their "real" jobs within the unit.

A divisional recce regiment, maybe like the british recce regiment? Could have been interesting how that one would turn out.

And the Lynx is just an M113 with some small changes right?

Thank you very much for your input Tango29, interesting to hear how you Canadians operate.

We did used the Cougar later in the 90's after the regular force stopped using them. For a number of years we did all kinds of armoured ops in them, even some COIN.

Being a fast, dependable (after retro-fit and removed from the reg force) and quiet (compared to tracks) they did well in the recce role. The only down side we found was having no dismounts. When the Coyote entered service they fixed the dismount issue, however as we found out in Afstgn, the 25mm was no match for the mud walls, hence the Leo1C1 deployment.

The 76mm in the Cougar would have done the same effect with HESH on the mud walls, but they had been withdrawn from service by then.

That's a shame, combining 76mm HESH and quiet tracks could have been useful in COIN operations, especially in A-stan.

I have read somewhere that the 5th CMBG (French) in 1989 had a regiment of Cougars? the 12e Rgt Blinde du Can? Can anyone confirm this?

[Gibsonm]

If A2 is admin/resupply, does A1 Echelon correspond to a reserve force?

No.

In UK / Commonwealth uints there are four echelons:

F Echelon = the fighting units and their built in logistic support (e.g. the fuel in the vehicle's tanks and the ammunition on board, etc.).

A1 Echelon = the Sub unit (Squadron, Combat Team, etc.) spare logistic capacity. This usually takes the form of "Admin Troop" a collection of maybe up to six vehicles that the Squadron commander can task to resupply, repair, recover and provide medical support to his fighting units.

A2 Echelon = a discrete sub unit commanded by a Major that is the Commanding Officer's spare logistic capacity and is usually called HQ Squadron or Support Squadron. The CO uses this to ensure that the various A1 Echelons (one per fighting Squadron) is replenshed.

Finally you have B Echelon which is towards the rear and which resupplies the A2.

So the process in very simple terms is:

- A vehicle expends ammunition.

- The Troop that vehicle belongs to redistributes (cross loads) ammunition between the vehicles.

- At some point the Tp Sgt determines he needs more ammunition and the A1 Echelon comes forward and replenishes them.

- The A1 now needs to be replenished and it goes to the A2 (or they meet part way) and the A2 replenishes the A1 so its ready to help a different Troop in the fighting Squadron.

- The A2 then goes back to the B Echelon and grabs some more ammunition so that its ready for the next request.

- The B Echelon grabs its ammunition from the next semi trailer arriving at the Ammunition Point.

This process means that the one tank doesn't have to drive all the way back to the Ammunition Point to "bomb up" and can stay in action for much longer.

The battle captain (which I first stumbled upon in "First Clash", is he an commissioned officer or senior enlisted?)

Um no he's a Captain (unless of course the orignal Captain has been killed or something and someone else is filling his job).

[Tacbat]

And the Lynx is just an M113 with some small changes right?

Nope, it's a different vehicle altogether. Shorter and narrower, etc...

[12Alfa]

I have read somewhere that the 5th CMBG (French) in 1989 had a regiment of Cougars? the 12e Rgt Blinde du Can? Can anyone confirm this?

If my memory is correct (it's failing as I type) each of the reg force Regt's had 1 Cougar Sqn. And then there were various Res Regt's with them as well, most likely the res units next or close to the large training areas to train with them.

Some (as above) had complete Regt's of them.

My own Regt were the first to get trained up, and were one of the last to fire with then, certainly the last unit in the east of the country.

As for a veh without a role, well as posted here , they were a tank trainer. It was a quick switch from them to Leo's 1's. Once a crew had training on tactics and basic fire control systems and ballistics, the move into advance FCS in the Leo was very quick.

We had no problems going to FT Knox and moving onto the SIMNet, CGTS, and simnetII using M1's for 10 years in the spring.

[McDLT]

when i joined in in 88 this is how a canadian armour regiments where formed

-12 RBC (12 canadian armoured regiment) 5 CMBG Vacartier

2 sqn of cougar(18 each, 1 lynks), 1 recce sqn of lynks(21 + 4 M113)

2 cougar in RHQ

-RCD ( royal canadian dragoons) 2 CMBG petawawa, ONT plus C sqn in gagetown

2 sqn of cougar(18 each, 1 lynks), 1 recce sqn of lynks(21 + 4 M113)

2 cougar in RHQ

C sqn 19 leopard 1A4

-LdSH(RC) (lord's stratcona's horse royal canadian) 1CMBG, Calgary , Alberta

2 sqn of cougar(18 each, 1 lynks), 1 recce sqn of lynks(21 + 4 M113)

2 cougar in RHQ

-8 CH (8 canadian husard) 4 CMBG, lahr, germany

3 sqn of 19 leopard 1A4

1 recce sqn of lynks(21 + 4 M113)

1 RHQ of 7 lynks

3x leo in RHQ RHQ

armour shool gagetown about 16 leopard with some with turret removed with the driver insert and turret used on muckup for gun training and some fuctionnal for crew commander traing

each regiment where in charge of some other cougar for the reserve since they did not have the facility to maintained them at that time.

from 92 to 97 we saw the arrival of one tank sqn per unit and the replacement of all cougars by coyotes.

since 07 we only have one tank regiment else is recce only, and this year C sqn tank is opening in gagetown, it will be a unit divided in two, alf 12RBC and half RCD so all armour member can work on tank in their career, which is good.

when I was deployed in bosnia in 1992, we brought all of our cougar in a recce sqn layout of 24 cougars(3x7 + SHQ(3)), oversea since we had a 3 weeks notice to move.

and ever since we always had less and less vehicles

current numbers are protected but 1988 numbers are good.

Edited May 9, 2012 by McDLT