Armour estimates of the leopard A4

[Marko]

Hi All.

Just a quick question on the armour value off the leopard A4 model in SB pro.

I recently played a scenario as a A4 gunner and was very frustrated at how easily the tank Can be penetrated Evan at its strongest areas i even Changed the ammo lay out of the T72

May be its just me.

But sometimes i think the T72 armour has been over estimated and also the Penetration capability's off the tank gun seems excessive Given the Ammo (BM15)and Realism setting was high

Or may be I'm just a sore loser.

[dejawolf]

really? i did a test scenario. i put the T-72 and leopard 2a4 1km apart, gave the T-72 3BM-15, and the leopard i gave DM-13(the shittiest 120mm round in the game)

and after about a minute of firing at eachother, the leopard 2a4 came out the victor, with 3 dead T-72M1s, and 3 undamaged leopard 2A4s.

with the silver bullet(M829A1), the gunfight scarcely lasted 20 seconds.

there was however one extremely lucky shot that went right under the thick gunshield of the leopard 2A4, and killed it.

[Ssnake]

Much depends on the hit location, and also the impact angle. It is the very nature of a detailed model like ours that some ballistic weaknesses are exposed that are otherwise lost in more "coarse" models. I haven't received reports yet that raise fundamental doubts about the Leopard family's armor values.

Having said that, if you can create screenshots of the impact locations and/or save the AAR with a list of dubious events, I'm willing to review them to see if there is anything wrong.

[Marko]

really? i did a test scenario. i put the T-72 and leopard 2a4 1km apart, gave the T-72 3BM-15, and the leopard i gave DM-13(the shittiest 120mm round in the game)

and after about a minute of firing at each other, the leopard 2a4 came out the victor, with 3 dead T-72M1s, and 3 undamaged leopard 2A4s.

with the silver bullet(M829A1), the gunfight scarcely lasted 20 seconds.

there was however one extremely lucky shot that went right under the thick gunshield of the leopard 2A4, and killed it.

I Conducted a similar test at various ranges using the DM -43 round the T72s took

A lot off Damage before they were destroyed.I also lost two leopards two first round hits.

As Snake rightly stated there a lot variables to take in to account when a Tank takes a hit.

But a have noticed The opfor forces seem to hit the vulnerable areas very frequently And often with a first round hit.

Even when moving a speed. i will not get a chance to play for a while.So any input from the forum members agreeing or Disagreeing would be welcome.

PS I still regards SB pro as the best armoured simi have ever played.

[Captain_Colossus]

It's not so much the hitting power of the rounds, but the abilities of the T-72M1 to lay fire into weak areas and bypass the main armor rather consistently with a fair chance of surviving itself; I would say subjectively that it has fire control and protection more in line with T-72B model.

This weekend I was testing a small scenario- conditions were maximum visibility, open desert, default ammunition for all. Three T-72's and 3 BMP-2's detected and defeated a section of two M1A1's at 3200 meters with no losses. Blue Force had an advantage of being positioned perpendicular to Red's column and squeezed off the opening shots- one round hit a BMP with no effect. Another hit the lead T-72 in the side turret- no effect. All three T-72's turned and counterattacked: after the first volley, one M1 had lost the main gun, the other had sustained track and turret damage. About six more shots delivered the coup de grace with a penetration into the top turret into one, and another into the glacis plate of the other. After running this particular scenario about ten more times, I'd say the M1 win ratio wouldn't be more than 1.5 : 1 as they are consistently picked up and damaged at long range, while the T-72 group seems relatively immune from its notorious tendencies. If they are 'aiming' for these choice locations, they are doing it quite well; if the dispersion model just happens to put them there at the perigee of the ballistic arc with such great occurence, I am the unluckiest SOB in the world. At any rate the advantages of the silver bullet are nullified by weaker but well placed BM-15 rounds when they score on your main gun and turret ring all day- in practice such accuracy levels the discrepency out and makes them perform about even.

What I've come to do in some scenarios is to degrade the T-72 fire control and curb back engagement ranges to around 2000 meters or less to affect inferior technology; even then the computer can perform very well under select conditions, typically in open areas with clear LOS makes the T-72 often perform more like a Western tank. As a final resort I might even set vehicle damage to kill instantly when hit if during testing I find that shots are simply being absorbed more than I can cope with.

[IrishHussar]

Marko can I ask which version you are using please??

Irish

[Marko]

Marko can I ask which version you are using please??

Irish

Hi

Im Using the latest Beta version.

[Tacbat]

If they are 'aiming' for these choice locations, they are doing it quite well; if the dispersion model just happens to put them there at the perigee of the ballistic arc with such great occurence, I am the unluckiest SOB in the world. At any rate the advantages of the silver bullet are nullified by weaker but well placed BM-15 rounds when they score on your main gun and turret ring all day- in practice such accuracy levels the discrepency out and makes them perform about even.

Could the "Difficulty" setting be on high, giving the EN AI better gunning/detection abilities?

[dejawolf]

if you're having problems with T-72s killing your tanks, pop smoke, and for the love of everything sacred, don't use the T-72's default ammunition,

if you want a realistic gulf-war scenario.

the default ammunition for the T-72 in SB is the very capable 3BM-42, which along with the

3BM-32 was the last 2 rounds fielded before the collapse of the soviet.

the 3BM-42 has a tungsten penetrator rod, and the 3BM-32 is a monoblock depleted uranium round similar to the M829, both in makeup and capabilities.

as for the T-72s fire control system, it is decent, in perfect weather conditions.

its basically the bradley FCS, minus thermals and only a fixed 8x magnification,

although the TC can relay targets to the gunner.

after lasing your target, the sight jumps, and you realign the reticle at your target and fire.

against moving targets is where you're going to have problems, since it doesn't have any dynamic lead.

anyways, i made a short scenario with M1A1 vs T-72M1@2km, both with their guns pointing at eachother. the result was 3 dead T-72s, 1 immobilized abrams.

ammunition was 3BM-15 for the T-72, and M829A1 for the abrams.

[Captain_Colossus]

Could the "Difficulty" setting be on high, giving the EN AI better gunning/detection abilities?

To be honest, I can't really discern the difference between these two settings during play- I tend to give the computer 'high' setting to try and offset any inherent human advantages of intuition, awareness and extra information the computer can't draw upon.

Still, T-72M1 export tanks alongside locally produced copies are what the Iraqis were using and got pasted- even at 'high' setting they might be performing beyond what some might expect from them. The setting may affect crew performance, but I think it may give an artificial boost to vehicle characteristics to boot. While the 2A46 gun system is powerful, it has been reported to quickly lose accuracy at around 2 km- perhaps the result of both gun and ammo characteristics, but in SB you tend to really see its abilities in large, open terrain where it should be outclassed by modern Western designs. On the contrary, the computer has better skill than I do in gunnery, so long range combat against a T-72 is not what I elect. In contrast the IFV autocannons can display a fairly large error rate- set up a CV90 against a BMP at as little as 700 meters and you will probably witness some of the 40mm AP rounds going wide or going high. I will say however that I enjoy the foul accuracy of the BMP-1 73mm low pressure gun so much, it makes me want to slap my grandmammy in the face four times on her way down.

Now whether local supply conditions and crew quality might pick up the slack in terms of detection and overall marksmanship is debatable, but armor quality is probably more of an independent constant if we rule those out. Historically the T-72 hasn't had many good innings; In SB it's fairly resistant and can end the simulation fast with a good parity of numbers.

[Captain_Colossus]

if you're having problems with T-72s killing your tanks, pop smoke, and for the love of everything sacred, don't use the T-72's default ammunition,

if you want a realistic gulf-war scenario.

the default ammunition for the T-72 in SB is the very capable 3BM-42, which along with the

3BM-32 was the last 2 rounds fielded before the collapse of the soviet.

the 3BM-42 has a tungsten penetrator rod, and the 3BM-32 is a monoblock depleted uranium round similar to the M829, both in makeup and capabilities.

I'm going to argue that that the ammo quality is secondary to the hard coded marksmanship of the computer; I don't really think it's that important at all compared to the computer's skill.

In the case of BM32/42, these rounds are still not predicted to overmatch the M1A1(HA) turret front- in theory at least they should perform about the same as 3BM9 Maraging steel in that sense. The problem however is the accuracy of the computer finding the weak zones, weak ammunition or not.

So the philosophical questions are whether we have we been really informed as to the more or less true strengths and weakensses of the T-72 or not- it wasn't a stellar performer in Lebanon '82, did poorly against the Coalition and US forces in DS and OIF even under conditions where air power or some other battlefield multiplier did not decisively interevene, and I've heard of only spotty reporting about dug-in Iraqi T-72's beating up on poorly maintained Chieftains or advancing Iranian waves who had no regard for tactics or self-preservation.

Maybe we haven't seen the full capabilities with real professional crews, but I don't give it too many more chances before I look at it as generally outclassed. Yeah, under select conditions it can be a real threat, but It can be a little disconcerting when it appears to short circuit its own weaknesses as well as bypass the strengths of its more modern opponents.

To be clear, I am pointing to the SB T-72M1 export model, not models like the T-72B or T-72 models which surpass or are on par with T-80/90.

[Ssnake]

It may be that the threat level of the T-72 in SB is a bit overstated, but we didn't want to depict it, again, as a monkey model with monkey crews. At least on the move future releases of Steel Beasts Pro will result in worse gunnery for the T-72. Maybe we can tweak a bit more.

[dejawolf]

well, the T-72M1s armour model in SB is actually closer to the T-72A.

arguably the reason it fared so poorly in lebanon in 82, is because those were the earlier export T-72M, which i think had something close to 310mm RHAe front turret thickness.

theres also rumours that some export batches of T-72M1, didn't get their composite turret inserts, while others were filled with sand

for whatever reasons, making them scarcely, or no better protected than the T-72M.

as for the abrams, its only the left and right turret front faces that is impregnable to the onslaught of 3BM-42, the front hull is actually fairly vulnerable.

[Marko]

It may be that the threat level of the T-72 in SB is a bit overstated, but we didn't want to depict it, again, as a monkey model with monkey crews. At least on the move future releases of Steel Beasts Pro will result in worse gunnery for the T-72. Maybe we can tweak a bit more.

I am in Total agreement with you. fighting a inept enemy can be monotonous.

I Remember playing M1 Tank platoon. The M1 was nearly indestructible.

But at the same time fighting a supposedly inferior tank that seems to have exceptional

Observation and accuracy skills far beyond what The tank. And crew training that most off

The nations Deploying the T72 are capable off can be annoying. I think a good compromise would be the ability To choose variants Of the T72 ie Monkey models and the more advanced models such as T72 B/BV/1M1. I imagine this Would require a lot off work for you guy's but it would be a great Feature.