Qatar Buys Heavy Armor from Germany

[rump]

Leopard 2a7 and PzH-2000 for Qatar

[Brun]

Strengthen the governments muscle while times are good and many nations depend on their oil. Other nations are becoming more self sufficient in their energy needs. I think oil kingdoms in the region know they have 30-50 years more (maybe sooner) before their version of the Beverly hill Billys is over. Unless they come up with another source of income to keep giving away free stuff to the people the princes will have to rely on the military to stay in power.

[Marko]

Leopard 2a7 and PzH-2000 for Qatar

I wonder if we will ever see those weapons platform in SB. It unnerves me that so many Mddle east nations have so many top of the line weapons platforms.

[AKM]

Marko, read De Atkine's Western Influence on Arab Militaries and Why Arabs Lose Wars. While I can't speak to the veracity of his claims regarding culture, it is clear from open source information that all the Arab nations operating advanced kit like this seem to have it for parades only, and their logistics situation could easily become a nightmare under any real pressure. A lot of platforms from a lot of different places.

At least contracts like this keep KMW afloat so there is the potential for these vehicles to enter service with NATO nations at some point in the future. Perhaps the very distant future.

[Marko]

Marko, read De Atkine's Western Influence on Arab Militaries and Why Arabs Lose Wars. While I can't speak to the veracity of his claims regarding culture, it is clear from open source information that all the Arab nations operating advanced kit like this seem to have it for parades only, and their logistics situation could easily become a nightmare under any real pressure. A lot of platforms from a lot of different places.

At least contracts like this keep KMW afloat so there is the potential for these vehicles to enter service with NATO nations at some point in the future. Perhaps the very distant future.

You make some valid points AKM.

If it was not for there cash.some major western arms company's mite not make it through The down turn

Its not the corrupt super rich royals that bother me. its the disenfranchised

Take Iran when they took power they blamed the west for all there problems.

If a nation like Saudi had a mass revolt and regime change they would have access to the vast arsenals.

With scores to settle with the Nations they believe helped there oppressors stay in power.

I don't think they would ever mount a conventional war against western nations

But they could make life very difficult for the west. using there ace card OIL.

And would have the weapons to defend there assets.that alone could cause mayhem

On oil import dependent nations

[Tjay]

But they could make life very difficult for the west. using there ace card OIL.

And would have the weapons to defend there assets.that alone could cause mayhem on oil import dependent nations

As I understand it, the USA is now self sufficient in energy thanks to shale fracking, and looks set to remain so for around 30 years. Many other Western nations, including the UK are investigating this technology. But something tells me that even if the wholesale price of petrol (gas) reduces markedly, we won't see much change on the forecourt (at the gas station). However, I'd just love to see the expression on the faces of the Sheiks if we ever get to say, 'Thanks, but no thanks. We've got our own'.

[Tjay]

Marko, read De Atkine's Western Influence on Arab Militaries and Why Arabs Lose Wars.

Where can these books be purchased please?

[Gibsonm]

Take Iran when they took power they blamed the west for all there problems.

Well "the West" did install and support the Shah.

[mpow66m]

The US installed every ahole the end up fighting.

[Brun]

Not important what Western installed leaders tell them. Only important what their Imams tell them and I don't think we will be installing one of those.

[rump]

Where can these books be purchased please?

Here's an article by Norvell B. De Atkine:

WESTERN INFLUENCE ON ARAB MILITARIES: POUNDING SQUARE PEGS INTO ROUND HOLES

The page also offers a PDF download of the article.

[mpow66m]

Not important what Western installed leaders tell them. Only important what their Imams tell them and I don't think we will be installing one of those.

dont be to sure with admin.his support and open wallet for known terrorist groups is quite evident.:frown:

[AKM]

Shit, sorry lads, I didn't mean to open this can of worms.

Both articles I listed the title of are available online for free, in full. Several journals carry them and they've been copied elsewheres; the Why Arabs Lose Wars article is very popular in particular and quite old, I think it even predates OIF.

[Tjay]

Shit, sorry lads, I didn't mean to open this can of worms.

Both articles I listed the title of are available online for free, in full. Several journals carry them and they've been copied elsewheres; the Why Arabs Lose Wars article is very popular in particular and quite old, I think it even predates OIF.

No can of worms methinks. I thought it was the title of a book rather than an article. Found it now.

[DrDevice]

I wonder if we will ever see those weapons platform in SB. It unnerves me that so many Mddle east nations have so many top of the line weapons platforms.

I think you also have to put things in a sense of scale:

62 Leopard 2A7 main battle tanks, and 24 PzH-2000 heavy self-propelled 155mm howitzers.

So they have enough systems for about one operating batallion of each, maybe a bit more if they are sharp on maintenance cycles.

That's not a deal maker or breaker in most modern conflicts. Granted, they aren't looking to go conquer a neighbor or anything loony, but the end-effect of one battalion of shiny tanks and one of artillery just isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

If they get to the 200 number, I'd be surprised, given their previous force, that is a big upgrade.

[Ssnake]

Looks to me like one mech brigade that they are setting up there. Three batteries of eight (or four of six) howitzers, one standard battalion plus additional vehicles as the (ample) maintenance reserve (and for training).

Or two small battalions of 31 vehicles each (old skool Soviet style) and no reserves whatsoever (doesn't sound very likely).

[Hedgehog]

So enough to keep an invading power busy while Allies gear up and sucker punch the enemy?

[Gibsonm]

So enough to keep an invading power busy while Allies gear up and sucker punch the enemy?

Well the place is about half the size of Wales so any Allies had better be quick (not a good idea to trade ground for time there).

[AKM]

Probably only makes sense in the context of their neighbours they're worried about. A battalion of good SPGs and tanks makes a difference if the fight is only going to be about brigade scale. Recently read a book (Simpkin: Race to the Swift) which suggested that it didn't matter how big the Soviet Army was because they could only fit approximately 24 tank or motor rifle divisions into the bits of Europe they controlled or hoped to soon control, as I recall. He came to this conclusion as a function of how much space TDs or MRDs take up on rails or on road: you could have more parked somewheres ready to go, but they can't go until the grid frees up.

So in the context of a country half the size of Wales, probably all they really need. If they burn through that number of vehicles there probably won't be time to bring up reinforcements.

[Tjay]

Here's an article by Norvell B. De Atkine:

WESTERN INFLUENCE ON ARAB MILITARIES: POUNDING SQUARE PEGS INTO ROUND HOLES

The page also offers a PDF download of the article.

Thanks Rump - most interesting. His report ties in with my personal experience in the civil aviation business in Libya and Egypt back in the late 80s. Extreme complacency and self-deception seems to be a fundamental aspect of the very macho Arab culture. I was once offered a job in Egypt to train ex Egyption airforce pilots to fly Bell 212s so they could take over from the Bristow Helicopter pilots currently doing the job. My reply was that I'd have go if they could explain how to teach someone who believes that they already know it all, are incapable of error, and who finds being told what to do by a filthy infidel utterly demeaning. 'Perhaps you are not quite the right person for the job', they replied.