The .50-cal is USELESS!!!!!!

[Grenny]

*F16s dont need to avoid interceptors, but will often have F15s or other F16s flying cover

*SEAD support will suppress (hopefully) OPFOR AD

*IR targetting pods and ground radar will locate the tanks, along with JSTARs and FACs (all simulated in FBMS)

**ergo tanks are targets

Dont get me wrong, still love tank sims.

To really find smething in the ground clutter with radar or ir is far from easy. Best chance a plane has is when there is a jtac talking them onto the tgt.

[Mower]

To really find smething in the ground clutter with radar or ir is far from easy. Best chance a plane has is when there is a jtac talking them onto the tgt.

Perhaps in some cases, however tactical radar (eg F16/F18) has a GMT option (Ground Moving Targets) that can pick out moving from stationary. When slaved to a targeting pod (eg Sniper) a pilot can clearly id the target and execute a stand-off attack.

[Grenny]

Perhaps in some cases, however tactical radar (eg F16/F18) has a GMT option (Ground Moving Targets) that can pick out moving from stationary. When slaved to a targeting pod (eg Sniper) a pilot can clearly id the target and execute a stand-off attack.

Yes, right, but the radar needs to pick up the tgt in the 1st place. And there are many factors that will bite you on that. You will simply not "see" it, even if it moves. And I'm not even talking about electronic ware measures.

Radar is not the all-seeing eye that (for example) Raytheon wants to make you think it is.

[Mower]

Radar is not the all-seeing eye that (for example) Raytheon wants to make you think it is.

No, it is not, agreed. Just another tool in the chest, sir.

[Agiel]

Back on topic:

To give you an example, parts of the airframes of the A-10 and the AH-64 Apache were rated to be protected against up to 23mm autocannon fire (although taking sustained hits from these rounds at a rate of 800-1000 RPM from a Zeus certainly wasn't good news for both of these aircraft). Though my knowledge of the Hind isn't as extensive, its role of a fast-attack helicopter that would make repeated passes against enemy positions using rockets (it was rather poorly suited for hovering and bob-up attacks compared to the Apache, the Havoc, and the Hokum) meant it had to be able to take at least a fair amount of punishment from heavy caliber rounds.

[dejawolf]

Hind afaik is 12.7 proof on large portions of the airframe.

[Marko]

Hind afaik is 12.7 proof on large portions of the airframe.

+1

I watched a discovery wings documentary about the hind yesterday.

It included interviews with Afghan fighters from the Soviet Occupation era.

The 50.cal was virtually useless against the hind.

And by all accounts the early version of the stinger wasn't much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

[MDF]

+1

I watched a discovery wings documentary about the hind yesterday.

It included interviews with Afghan fighters from the Soviet Occupation era.

The 50.cal was virtually useless against the hind.

And by all accounts the early version of the stinger wasn't much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

I thought it was Blowpipe and Redeye that proved ineffective, and that the introduction of Stinger changed things dramatically.

[Marko]

I thought it was Blowpipe and Redeye that proved ineffective, and that the introduction of Stinger changed things dramatically.

They had some guy who was a observer at the time.

He stated he seen six fired and all missed.

The commentary was a little confusing as they already stated the soviets were losing Record numbers of aircraft due to ground fire the Mi-8/26 were not armour protected Though. Maybe is was due to ground AA fire/heavy machine guns

[Grenny]

+1

I watched a discovery wings documentary about the hind yesterday.

It included interviews with Afghan fighters from the Soviet Occupation era.

The 50.cal was virtually useless against the hind.

And by all accounts the early version of the stinger wasn't much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

The Stinger was successful enough to trigger some mayor changes in Hind design and deployment tactics....

[RedWardancer]

I was able to gun down a Hind-E with the coax, but the 50-cal just made them angry. Not sure how that happened.

Technical question: Would the system recognize my shots hitting the rotors instead of the body? Never heard of armored rotors that can take punishment.

Or should I just run, fly, and hide? :bigsmile:

[haukka81]

All choppers have weak points, you have to deal with weight/power ratio so even hind is not flying tank. 0.50 cal will drop it , if range is not too far and gunner knows where to shoot. (and chopper pilot is stupid and stays in hover) :heu:

[RedWardancer]

See if hitting the rotors will do the job or not. I did notice in another scenario how the .50-cal wrecked a BMP

[Invader ZIM]

In some of my scenarios, The Hind has taken multiple Hellfire's to bring down.

In other's, a few lucky .50 cal MK211 rounds from over a kilometer away did enough damage after penetrating to disable the helo.

[Tacbat]

I've seen the Apache taken down by a 7.62mm MG team.

[12Alfa]

I've seen the Apache taken down by a 7.62mm MG team.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn once:1:

[haukka81]

I've seen the Apache taken down by a 7.62mm MG team.

Apache is just made off plexiglass & Fibre-reinforced plastic sheet's. Only engines, cockpit and transmission has some real armor other areas just some kevlar .. and thats because weight.

Movies and old games just make it uber flying tank.

Enough 7.62 MG fire will drop it , so it cant just hover near inf :gun:

[Ssnake]

I was able to gun down a Hind-E with the coax, but the 50-cal just made them angry. Not sure how that happened.

You're experiencing the combined effects of

• a stochastic (=non-deterministic) damage model
• our limitations to define redundancies in a vehicle; therefore we try to balance this out by giving relatively low component damage likelihoods even if you hit the right places. As a consequence, battle damage appears more erratic
• certain weaknesses in the handling of relatively weak bullets interacting with thin surfaces at near 90° impact angles (measured from surface normal)

Remedial actions would be to make the projectile penetration model a lot more complex, to go over the entire fleet of light vehicles in Steel Beasts, and a major coding effort to add counters how many times a redundant component needs to receive damage before it actually fails, and a detailed avionics/rotor wing model of aerodynamic physics.

For the moment we have come to the conclusion that the benefits are too small for the amount of effort that would be involved. This need not remain the case, but it's probably clear by now why this isn't an entirely trivial task to tackle.

[AlphaOneSix]

Trying to hit rotor blades on a helicopter is an exercise in futility. The rotor disc is mostly just empty space, so the vast majority of bullets will go right through the rotor disc without hitting anything at all. Also, for the Hind specifically, only 1/3 of the rotor blade's chordwise length is the spar, the rest is just aerodynamic "fluff" that you could punch holes in all day and the aircrew won't even notice.

Helicopters are not as armored as people are led to believe, either. Engines and gearboxes are not armored, for example (well, some Mi-24's and Mi-8's have add-on steel plate armor for the engines and main gearbox). Just about all the armor is placed around the aircrew.